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Feb 8, 2001, 11:36pm

Oh, come on casay, give us a break. Show us a eep post that helped someone.
Yes eep has contributed in the past... the past is not now.. Every post eep has
entered, has had either a putdown, cursing, or name calling attached to it. I
fail to see how that helps the community. Don't give me this crap about 'he
means well..." or "thats just the way he is..." etc. He hasn't "contributed "
anything. Except bitterness and anger at AW and anyone who says something that
he doesn't agree with. For those of us who enjoy AW and the community, we are
asskissers in eeps eyes.

Holistic1


[View Quote] > Casay 168013 stay
>
> I really can't believe this. Sure, Eep comes across as harsh but I think
> there's a lot more ppl here that abuse this NG with their swearing, over
> posting, incorrect posting etc. Eep speaks his mind, nothing wrong with
> that. He also contributes more than most people that post here. I was really
> hoping that AW WAS going in the direction of caring about the community and
> its citizens. Eep is a citizen, like it or not. He's also one that has done
> a lot for the advancement of this company even though he doesn't agree with
> the management. He does believe in the technology and it's potential. He, as
> well as I and others see the potential of AW. We want it to succeed as much
> as AWCI does. He's just vocal about what direction it should go in and how
> the company should treat its citizens. Again, there's nothing wrong with
> that. The NG charter doesn't say a person has to agree with company policy
> or that they can't comment on it.
>
> Now, if you ban Eep for speaking his mind or calling someone a twit, then I
> respectfully request that you also ban EVERY single person that has abused
> the charter at ANY time. The Derek comes to mind for all his useless and
> flamatory postings. How about the person who posted subject- Go F*** a
> donkey? I'm sure I'd be on that list also as I've had harsh things to say at
> times too, even to Eep himself. Does he ask for me to be banned? No, he
> replies or doesn't as he sees fit. I take it all in stride like an adult
> even though he's made me mad more than once. Are you banning yourself too?
> You better, you've flamed in here just as bad as anyone else over the years
> in frustration just like the rest of us. Now that you work for AWCI you're
> better than all that???????? *really want to say in imortal words of Eep-
> drive through*
>
> I would also like to add, that if this ban goes thru I will no longer be
> posting to this or any other AW NG exept beta if still accepted on that list
> after this. I will start posting my info soley in Andra's NG. How soon AW
> forgets how dead this NG got after the last go around with this.
>
> One more comment since I never commented in all the threads between you and
> Eep. Guess I should have.You wrote a nice civil post to him. I thought, he
> wrote a really civil post back. Esp for him. I don't think you realize
> what's he's trying to say to you? He's darn near begging you to help bring
> about community enlightenment with AWCI. He's actually asking for your help
> to bring that about. I was hoping for the same from you too. Do you not see
> that or are you only reading his posts from a negative viewpoint? Since when
> don't you realize that's Eep's problem isn't with what he says but mainly
> with HOW he says it. This whole thing needs to stop now, unfortunately, it
> seems to late. :-(
> Very sad day again for AWCI.
> Respectfully,
> Casay
>
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 11:41pm

another point of mine.. hehe (brags)

--
J B E L L
http://platinum.awjbell.com
G O I N G P L A T I N U M
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 11:44pm

[View Quote] [View Quote] And I just wanted an explanation for why you took the newsgroups were down. "I was working on them" doesn't cut it. You asked for an apology AFTER I asked for an explanation, which you eventually finally gave after it was practically beaten out of your sorry ass. But before you did you mentioned this "vote" to ban me. If anything, THAT is tripe, sport.

> Your other opinions
> "oh, me big dragon hunter" - what tripe Eep. I dont care about power, I care
> about the community - if I didnt, this wouldnt even be up for vote, I would
> of jsut said "Eep is now banned" and that would be the end of the story,
> and, it would of been *alot* easier than organising a vote for the
> community.
>
> I dont want you to suck up to me, I dont even want you to *talk* to me.
>
> You do not understand the need to want to do things for the community,
> because you yourself hardly even care about it. Just because you dont, does
> not mean that others dont - and my heart is at least int he right place,
> even if this may not of been the correct course of action - who are you to
> judge anyone when it comes to that?
>
> Get *over* it. I have no secret illuminati agenda, I have always been *very*
> honest with the whole community - always. I dont need approval from my
> "Bosses", I dont need approval from you, or the gnomes of Zurich - the only
> person I need approval from, is myself, and *I* approve of what I am doing,
> because I know my heart is in the right place - and that it is with the
> community, like it always *has* been.

You THINK it's with the "community", but it's not; it's with you and you alone. Had you thought otherwise you would not have then passed off the responsibility to the community to ease your conscious on the matter. You have played a subtle, but important, card in showing your hand, Facter, and I've called your bluff. Now fold before you lose your entire pot.

Feb 8, 2001, 11:53pm

does your constant repetition of ppl's posts constitute a breach in the
newsgroup charter or just the fact you are a little twit?


[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 11:54pm

just the fact that i'm a little twit :-)

--
J B E L L
http://platinum.awjbell.com
G O I N G P L A T I N U M
[View Quote]

Feb 8, 2001, 11:56pm

You should know me well enough by now to know I won't just stand by and let this vote happen or accept its outcome one way or another, Darla. I appreciate your and others support but I must stand up for what I believe in. I don't think Facter truly believes in what he's doing or he would NOT have shoved it off to the "community" (and only in the newsgroups, too, I might add) to decide. Where are Rick, JP, and the other AWCIers' opinions on this matter? Where is Lucrustia's dictatorial opinion? Facter obviously has too much power and is left ungoverened by Rick and JP; the power is going to his head and he needs to be put in his place since his Aw parents (Rick and JP) don't seem to be doing their employee management job.

[View Quote] > Do a favor- PLEASE????? I know, He's being an ass, do NOT reply though. The
> community seems to be on your side. You will come out of this better if you
> don't reply. I know it's probably hard not to, but ignore him. I'm sooo
> disgusted with all this. It's just my humbly given although unsolicted
> advice.
> You know I care!
>
> From: "eep" <eep at tnlc.com>
> Newsgroups: community
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 6:21 PM
>
> AWCI's
> people
> have
> say....
> you
> and
> guys
> do
> asskisser. Let the "community" regulate itself. AWCI tried moderation before
> and it didn't work. Perhaps if you knew your AW newsgroup history better
> you'd've realized that before ever thinking about attempting to ban me. You
> made a mistake and are now simply trying to brush it off (something you seem
> to be getting better at) onto the newsgroup posters, when most, if not all,
> don't give a shit whether I stay or go, or your little power trip and low
> self-esteem.
> problem
> boot
> part

Feb 8, 2001, 11:58pm

Please note this post wasn't made to flame Facter or anyone else its a vote
eep, not your time to flame, I think you should be somewhat respectful to
everyone unless they are inconsiderate to you, which eep, lol have you even
attempted such a thing? No, if someone makes one simple joke, Eep: "Flaming
time!!!", Active Worlds wasn't made for an Eep to go around flaming every
other new user and to encourage hatred into AWCOM because they haven't done
anything about it, even a 1:4 ratio should get you banned Eep, youve
probably harrassed 2/4 of the AW population...

image
image2 at uswest.net
www.imagebot.net

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:04am

[View Quote] I had my response all composed in my head on the drive home, and then I read
this post that I am sure is representative of quite a few people.

I HATE when that happens! But it happens all the time to me. Trying to
decide how to vote (in the real world), which organizations to support,
and which to ignore. You gather all the facts, do all your reasoning, make
up your mind. And then you hear about a starving child, or a plane crash or
some other human tragedy that didn't quite fit into your reasoning. Of
course reversing your decision 180 degrees doesn't help, that just fails to
include some other situation.

No well-thought-out logical basis for human action has EVER covered all the
bases. If it had, it would have swept the world by now wouldn't it? One
of these days humanity may stumble upon the magic formula for always making
the right decision, but until then, people will disagree. When people
disagree, they often get very emotional, they say things they don't mean to
say, they say things that they mean one way but which can also be
interpreted in another way.

The decision we are asked to make hinges on this premise:

***"This user has been a source of continuous harassment, abuse, slander,
derogatory remarks, personal insults and defamatory insults."***

Before I go any further I want to make clear that I think Facter is a great
guy, and from my limited exposure to the individuals involved, probably the
best friend the users have within the organization.

Eep on the other hand is somewhat of an a**hole. Although I agree with
most of his positions on things, I have never understood why he feels it
necessary to express himself using such extreme language. He has picked on
me a few times. Frankly I don't give a d*mn about that. I find many of
his posts more amusing than anything else. ( I guess I am now guilty of
those charges too).

Long ago, the new owners of AW promised some form of democracy in AW to
decide all manner of issues. Those promises have long since been forgotten
by what's left of the AW community. The AW community is far diminished in
both quantity and quality from what it once was. A big new infusion of
users from places like Juno, stand some chance of improving the quantity at
least, if in fact those users can be engaged and retained. Its always
possible for AW to tinker here, and tinker there and achieve a balance
between the absolute control that some would like to exercise over that
community and the need for freedom that some of us require to be a part of
it.

When the newsgroups were monitored before I refused to post here. I sent
an email to Rick once and begged him to free it up again. Shortly after
that the monitoring stopped (I am not claiming credit though). Its been a
long gradual road to getting things back to how they used to be (when even
Rick and JP posted occasionally, remember?). The tug of war between
control and freedom that has gone on in this newsgroups is a mirror of what
has happened to AW as a whole. I wish I could say what we are seeing is
two steps forward and one step back, but I am not so sure that is the case.

***"This user has been a source of continuous harassment, abuse, slander,
derogatory remarks, personal insults and defamatory insults."***

The terms of the charges are vague. They could be applied to several other
people here but have not. Will more votes follow shortly? The terms of
the charter for this newsgroup were equally vague, and as we witnessed
during the time when the newsgroup was being monitors, were applied
arbitrarily. We also know that messages were censored during that time
that did not violate ANY of the terms of the charter. Censorship is a very
slippery slope. Need we learn this lesson again?

I'm very sorry that Eep's rude behavior has kept people like "ivie" from
participating. I guess it's not fair to ask people like her to use
filters, or just to ignore such posts. As often as that has been
suggested, there remain a sizable number of people who's curiosity won't let
them ignore a post that they know they will find offensive. There are
people who will worry about reading such posts while they are in school or
at work, when in fact they should be reading any posts there at all. There
are people who cannot express themselves civilly, who get worked up and say
things that don't need to be said to get their point across. Which of
these groups should we decided to discriminate against here?

Democracy. Someone who despises democracy could not have picked a better
way to demonstrate its flaws. When democracy is pitted against freedom,
neither can win.

I abstain from the vote.

This will be my last post here. Goodbye community of AW.

Feb 9, 2001, 12:04am

I flipped a coin.

Syntax (308403) - Stay

Feb 9, 2001, 12:14am

Builderz 92986 - "Stay"

-Builderz

Feb 9, 2001, 12:14am

If I were voting, I would vote that Eep stay, but I won't even cast a vote in this for the following reasons:

1. If someone has broken the rules in the newgroup charter to the extent that they should be kicked out of the newsgroup, that's up to AWCI, not to a vote of the users.

2. Even *if* such a vote were a good idea (and it's not, imho) a hastily cobbled together vote with a 24 hour time frame is ridiculous. Many readers of the newsgroup may just check it once a week or every few days. Nothing fair, democratic or "*communities* decision" about it. Not that the "community" should even be deciding on removing ANYone's privileges to post in the newsgroup in the first place.

One employee's feelings get hurt when a citizen attacks him verbally in the newsgroup...leading to all this. And AWCI allows its company name to be attached to such a voting scheme? Astonishing.

Lara

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:20am

Well Lara would you prefer to be banned from AW and one day just attempt to
login and it won't let you on. Or would you like to know in advance and
atleast have the chance of staying on AW? (Just an example) I think Eep
should be somewhat greatful that he has not been kicked off AW and Facter
didn't just ban him and he actually got himself and his friends to atleast
give a say to stop the vote, don't you think its a little more fair?

image
image2 at uswest.net
www.imagebot.net

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:30am

Umm, hello, if that was part of it - it would of been int he voting post
that I put up.

I said, that I will no post in here, and, at this point , that is not
actually determined - but that, has nothing to do with this vote...

You have no grip on logic.

F.
[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:33am

Perhaps then the newsgroups should be shut down altogether ?

It seems that my efforts to do something here, something involving the whole
community, and my efforts to bring some kind of productive environment here
are worthless to many.

Why even have the newsgroups in the first place, then ?

F.

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:42am

Well, go to http://tnlc.net/rw sometime. Usually when Eep posts something
that is helpful it's in the form of a short post with a link to information
in that site. Why? Because he's already answered several of the questions
already and added his new information to the site! Also, get this if you
will; MANY of the bug reports that were posted in the Beta NG were
discovered by none other than Eep himself. Yes, he had the version that
everyone else did for awhile. He spent days with that version and had
several ppl post his findings for him. So, on behalf of the latest 3.1
release I bet he contributed as much or MORE than any other beta tester even
though he only had it for a short period of time. How long have you been in
AW? There's a lot more to this whole story. Take a look at who is posting to
this thread. People that don't usually post here anymore in protest of
monitoring of this very NG. How soon we forget. :-(

Take him for what he is or filter him, whatever, it's your choice. He's a
citizen and has the right to post, just like you have the right to post your
opinion here too. Oh, and Eep 'rarely' curses but he can certainly, with a
quick word or two, bluntly, & precicely cut right into someone. Right, wrong
or otherwise, he's a citizen. For years I've begged him to lighten up. If
you've been around for any period of time you'd know he has. Do you remember
the LONG letters written by Wascally Wabbit, Lucrezia, myself and others
over the years about this very topic? Lu, where are you anyway? Would love
to see you post on all this. I think it's time you stepped in and helped
stop/settle this madness. I'd like to know if AWCI knew in advance that
Facter was posting this or not? I'd really appreciate an answer, thanks.

I'm not sorry for what I posted at all, I stand by every word. I'm just
sorry, that after having just had a long conversation with Facter just the
other day, about how AWCI was working on improving their relationship with
the community, that this even happened. I was really hoping that Facter
would be able to bring that about. I'm very disappointed with all this as so
far as I can see, it seems more like a personal attack on Eep than a
community opinion. If it was different, this would have been done years ago.
I wish it weren't so. So, ask to have yourself banned too for NG charter
abuse if you've ever complained or said something bad, called someone a twit
or anything to someone here.

No apoligies here,
Casay


[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:43am

Lord Vector - Stay,

I have been in AW since 1998 , and used the news groups from day one and
have found eep's posts to be most entertaining and always bringing a smile
to my face.Most of his comments are valid if not put in the ususal way most
of us would expect but hey why not if it gets peoples attention.

If you want to ban anyone ban all the lame people who post total rubish that
isnt related to AW Technology , I mean does anyone actualy give a rats a**
if its not related to the AW engine? I thought thats what this news server
was for I personaly dont want to permit someone i dont know to host my world
i paid for on there pc with a cable modem even it it is free. Nor do i want
to listen to them debating why its free, whos cracking what object password
or who is bascly spaming the server with un related trash that just anoyed
everyone to the point that we all wander were its going to end.

If you are going to do direct attacks on people to get them voted of the
news server then I sugest you start with all these lame people who do not
respect what this news service was intended for rather than pick on one
person as you dont like the tone of there comments, so you feel u can get us
to do your dirty work for you because then you dont feel like the bad guy.
You may feel thats un just but im affraid that is what you are doing, I
understand your loyalty to AW as there your boss and this is there server
but they provided it for the community they also said it was for the
community to use by adding there citizen mames and passwords from the uni
server so they can post on it and all citizens of AW are that community so
either apply this rule to the community in whole or not at all.

While you at it go read the wish list and add a few more news groups to the
server.

Lord Vector.

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:46am

Seems like you forget how dead the NG's got for awhile huh? There's a lot of
good info that's posted. Most of the worthless, swearing, attacking, hasn't
been from Eep. Or at least not started by him. Re-read all The Derek threads
for a clue here. There's several others posted by young kids that don't
contain any useful information. So what? I appreciate your wanting to try to
help the community but you're going about it all wrong. :-(
Casay


[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 12:52am

If possible I would like to change this vote to 'stay'. I thought it over some more and decided that Eep should not be banned from the news group. After all, wouldn't it be boring without Eep around? :)

He does contribute to the community with helpful information, although not always presented in the way the reader would prefer; it's still informative and helpful. Any decent news reader (Netscape, Outlook Express etc.) has a filter, so if a person doesn't want to see what Eep has to say then they should filter him.

Please accept my apology, Eep.

[View Quote] > K y l e - 298819 - Remove.

Feb 9, 2001, 1:04am

Firey - stay

IMHO eep's posts are witty, honest and to the point, no beating around the
bush or bulls*** from eep!

Eep - Ignore 'em, they are just jealous of your great personality and
ability to speak your mind when it counts.

(( eep ))

- Firey


"If you pick it, it'll never heal!"

Feb 9, 2001, 1:20am

You may not have made it part of the "official" voting "rules", but considering you mentioned it only HOURS (if not minutes) before you posted those "rules", I seriously doubt you're still not thinking about it. You're such a fucking twit, Facter. You say one thing yet do another, then you later attempt to skirt around it by claiming "<whine> but it's not part of the rules&!*(#". You fucking disgust me with every post you make. You've always been a twit to me over the years in how you act and what you say and do, but now you're nailing the point home in this latest attempt at "helping the community". What you FAIL to realize is that you are actually helping to DESTROY the community by this latest charade of AWCI (of which you are ineptly a part of).

YOU, idiot twitfuck moron pissant, have no grip on logic. Now evolve already...and get over yourself.

[View Quote] > Umm, hello, if that was part of it - it would of been int he voting post
> that I put up.
>
> I said, that I will no post in here, and, at this point , that is not
> actually determined - but that, has nothing to do with this vote...
>
> You have no grip on logic.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 1:33am

When this news group was set up it was set up with rules.
Ever since I have started posting in this news group eep has been breaking
the rules.
I personally don't see how spelling words wrong, useing the wrong or no
punctuation, or just being new and not knowing your way around should target
you for an eep attack. But, eep never fails to attack on these grounds and
other grounds that are just as inocent. I think eep does contribute valuable
information, but never fails to attempt to make you feel like crap while
doing so.
I personally think eep is a total jacka$$ and if anyone should be banned
from the group he should.
However, we did not set up the rules, management did.
And I feel that it is up to management to enforce those rules. Instead,
management is passing the buck instead of takeing charge. My questions are,
is AW management afraid to enforce the rules they set up? Are they setting
the community up as the fall guy if things should go horrably wrong in this
vote and people later try to complain?

for instance:
If eep is voted to stay, than later on down the road he gets totally out of
hand and the community decides to complain to AW. Then AW can simply say,
you voted him to stay so deal with it.

I say, AW management set the rules, now AW management should have the
responsibility and backboan to enforce them.

Because I feel it is the responsibility of AW management to enforce the
rules, I abstain from voteing.

BTW eep, I know there are misspelled words the quotations are wrong in my
post.
I hope you understand, I don't care about that, so don't bother to mention
it :)

Imagine 284220

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 1:49am

Facter:
As many people have said over and over again, this is not a community
issue, but the issue of you and you alone. There has been no call to
arms against Eep, the so-called nemesis of the Newsgroups. I can't
entirely say my experience with Eep has always been a friendly one, but
it was certainly informative.

This vote is also a farce. I've read all the posts, and I've seen some
instances of peer pressure. If you really wanted a vote, it should have
been a secret vote. However, I feel that this should not have been
brought up in the first place. Shame on you, Facter, for bringing a
personal grudge to the community. In the end, it will be you who would
have done the most damage.

Because you will no doubtly will count it either way, I will vote. You
are entirely in the wrong this time.

Jeff Raven 297730 - Stay.



[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 2:08am

image, are you aware that at one time eep was kicked from aw with no
warning? eep has been through this before, read his history pages, maybe
you could understand him better.

-myrth

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 2:17am

Look around you, Facter. Do you like what you see? Are you proud of your
handiwork? Regardless of whether Eep stays or goes, you have succeeded
in doing the one thing you claim to be against. In a single post, you've
caused more damage to this AW Community than Eep could ever have hoped
to accomplish in his entire AW career. You have torn this community
asunder, to the point of being irreparable. Are you happy now? Did you
not see this coming? Did you honestly think this would somehow unite the
community to assist you in your personal grudge match?

Instead, the opposite is true. Hell, this thread alone has probably
caused more people to leave the newsgroups than any comments Eep has
made in the past. Your actions today certainly have succeeded in
lowering my personal opinion of you. When you first started posting, I
had hope. I thought "Hey, we might actually be able to get something
accomplished now! They're listening to us!" But instead, you have
demonstrated that you are just as petty, self-centered, and irrational
as your AWCI superiors. Instead of standing up for your personal beliefs
and dealing with Eep ON YOUR OWN, you decided to turn this into a
community issue, thereby creating a schism which will never heal.

If this is to be the state of the newsgroups from here on in, then I
will have no part in it. Oh, rest assured, I will still read along and
follow whatever shambles of the AW Community is left after this all
blows over. However, I refuse to participate in a community where you
can be prosecuted for stating your own opinions truthfully, and have to
live in fear of the almighty "ban".

Therefore, consider this post my formally dismissal from the AW
newsgroups. It's been fun, but now the fun is over.

P.S. Before I go, I would like to point out to anyone who plans to
remain here, for whatever reason, that there are other forms of
communication out there that WON'T intimidate you or pressure you into
following a certain mindset. These forums are completely unregulated and
you can have any say in them you wish. I suggest you relocate to these
forums and demonstrate to AWCI that you won't be pressured into
conforming to their ideals.

Andras's News - news://andras.net
City4All awcommunity -
news://news.city4all.com/is4all.public.awcommunity
AWNews.com Forum - http://www.awnews.com/forums/list.php?num=1
Ima Genius's Forum - http://polygon.imatowns.com
Xavarella's Forum - http://members.boardhost.com/Xavarella

--
Goober King has left the building...

Feb 9, 2001, 2:24am

A strong and truthful letter of what has happened... **claps**
Sorry to see ya leave..

--
- Tony56 (Tony M.) [chandler56 at mail.com]
"All typos are optical illusions"
____________________________________________________________
[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 2:31am

me and Daniel ( who is on his way as i type....my waters just broke ) say
stay

Feb 9, 2001, 2:34am

I agree eep needs to calm down and quit bashing every one but at what cost?
I dont see the point in banning on a vote if you want to ban some one ban
them dont force the comunity to take sides.
No i dont like eeps attitude but i dont think he should be banned by vote
especialy a non anon vote all this will do is rip the aw comunity to shreds.
If you want to do this by vote the votes should as in rr or as most in aw
say rl then do it anon not public.
sorry Factor but no way can i agree on this.
you know what will happen if you go through with this?
You will at some point have to ban most of the peeps who said they wanted
eep to stay and a huge chunk of the peeps who said he should be banned.

Feb 9, 2001, 3:13am

Anyone with any common sence at all can see this is not a matter for the
community to decide. This is a personal matter between facter and eep.
Facter and eep should be left to work it out between them selves.
It's not to late to change your votes to abstain.
Imagine

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 4:03am

What, and *IM* not trying to help with these things also Casay ???\

*sigh*

[View Quote]

Feb 9, 2001, 4:06am

> Then perhaps you shouldn't. You try too hard, Facter. Don't be such an
asskisser. Let the "community" regulate itself. AWCI tried moderation before
and it didn't work. Perhaps if you knew your AW newsgroup history better
you'd've realized that before ever thinking about attempting to ban me. You
made a mistake and are now simply trying to brush it off (something you seem
to be getting better at) onto the newsgroup posters, when most, if not all,
don't give a shit whether I stay or go, or your little power trip and low
self-esteem.

My AW newgroup history ? I was posting in here, ona very frequent basis,
before you had even HEARD of AW Eep.

Incorrect - YOU made the mistake Eep - you, and you only. This situation
would *not* exist if you were any kind of rational, tolerable and decent
person, with respect for tohers. How easily you twist things around to your
own wants.

One can only try - I tried and failed - too bad.

F.

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