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Feb 23, 2002, 3:36pm

Why don't you get common sese if I'm an idiot? Do I need to point out that
world builders and world hosters are two *entirely* different group of
people? It's not that it's to argue, it's that our privacy was violated.
Why are you complaining anyways? If you don't want to read it, DON'T. No
one is forcing you to be here, no one is forcing you to read it.

No one said you had to post in this thread either, you have free will there
buddy.

-Silenced

Feb 23, 2002, 3:50pm

Oh man ... How did so many people manage to get themselves so wound up that
this is now such an emotive issue? If this is the biggest thing to be
getting excited about right now, then there is a serious inbalance in
outlook here. Perhaps there's a bug in AW's Perspective Projection
transformation matrix??

Oh, and BTW ... attack?? ... suspicion?? Where did this come from?? Passing
over the initial "Attack? WTF??" reaction, the only way to link any
so-called "attack" with the workings or activities of the bot in question
would be if MrGrimm went on a slagging rampage. From what I can see, MrGrimm
has simply provided information on what the bot was up to. See what I mean?
Twist, twist, twist, twist, twist, twist.

Grims


[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 3:56pm

[View Quote] > LOL, the principle is a pretty stupid thing to debate about.
> *roll eyes* Now AWCom has to ask permission to update their own program? LOL
> :)


Grrrrr... I hate it when people attack principles. Without principles
it would be impossible to have a legal system that works (and failure to
apply principles makes some of our current legal systems work poorly).

Principles are like programming. Establishing a solid principle allows
us to avoid having to go through all the work (for those of us who work
at it) involved in making the hundreds of decisions we make every day.

Without principles, I would leave my house every day, notice that
someone had a nicer car than mine, and have to stand there and decide if
I should steal it. A LOT goes into such a decision. Those of us who
apply principles have it easy. Those of you who don't must get awfully
tired at the end of the day... and awfully tempted. Our jails are full
of people who don't understand the concept of applying principles to
their daily lives.

So, for the benefit of the "principle impaired" among you let me use an
example:

I'm off to visit my condo that I haven't been to for a month. If for
ANY reason during that month the building management has entered the
condo I will find a note there stating when, and why they entered. Its
part of the building bylaws that this will be the case. But even in
building that are rental properties that is also the case. Whether I
own the property, or rent it, I can almost count on that note being
there should such an entry have taken place. Is there a federal or
state law requiring this? Not that I know of.

Now, how do they get into my unit? Do they break the door down? No.
They have a key. Furthermore I KNOW they have a key. They told me so.
They told me who has it, and what are the circumstances under which
it can be used, and who to complain to if I think it has been misused.
Its that way everywhere I have ever lived that involved community
maintenance of property. It is NOT the case where it comes to a
detached house. Nobody has the key to my house. I own the house, and
the land it is on and there is no "building manager" or maintenance
person who's job it is to check up on the place. Different situation,
same P-R-I-N-C-I-P-L-E.

It can be argued that in the present case of the "spy bot" there is no
community property involved. Many (if not most) world owners don't use
AW computers to host their worlds. They have bought a license to use
the server code. They server code remains the property of AW. We all
have the browser that we have licensed from AWLD but the browser remains
the property of AWLD. As far as I can tell though, NO PART of a world
not hosted on an AWLD server belongs to or is the responsibility of
AWLD. If I use the Netscape browser does Netscape have the right to
monitor which web sites I visit? Does Microsoft have the right to
monitor users of its software? If you have read any new lately you
will know that the answer is no. And when there is any remote
appearance of such monitoring, PRINCIPLED companies go to great lengths
to correct the situation.

Again:
<principle impaired mode>
When I go to my condo and find a note that someone has entered I review
it, possibly contact the building manager for details of the event.
When I come back to my house and find that the people I bought the house
from 18 years ago retained a key and are having a party here while I am
gone, I call the police.

The difference? No, not that there was a party involved.... think more
carefully now...

The difference is that in one case I KNOW that the key is in the hands
of someone else and in what cases they will use it. In the other case
the key has been kept secretly, and used without my knowledge
beforehand, and possible has been used many times when I didn't discover it.
</principle impaired mode>

What AWLD has here is a key to our worlds. Citizen number 1. We know
this because we have caught them in our worlds on more than one occasion
doing various things without telling us beforehand (or presumably
afterwards if they got away with it). We only know what that key will
do based on examples from when they have been caught. We don't know
what the full potential of that key is. Nobody at AWLD is talking to
us about that except for brief explanations each time they get caught.

The people at AWLD (and apparent quite a few of their users) are
principle impaired. They don't apply principles as a normal part of
their business activities. By not applying principles, they are forced
to think through in detail the possible consequences of every action
they take. More often than not they miss something in the process.

If they would apply principles that MOST of us accept and use in our day
to day lives, they would save themselves a lot of embarrassment. And
just possibly their company would not be in the predicament they find
themselves now.

What AWLD needs is MORE reliance on principles, not less. It will be
good for us users (for what time we have left) and it will be good for
the company, both now, and in their next incarnation. Some of the
people who run AWLD are over 40 years old. I can forgive you high
schoolers out there, but I can't imaging someone who has been around
more than 40 years not understanding the need to deal with your
customers on honest and forthright basis.

Feb 23, 2002, 4:06pm

Goober's key point is about how such a big deal has been made out of
something totally innocuous. Ananas posted the original here, wondering what
the deal was - fair enough - and MrGrimm explained. Since MrGrimm works for
AW, as 99.9% of people are surely away, that should reasonably have been the
end of it, but no ... heaven forbid that that could POSSIBLY be the case in
here! Its the Community Newgroup's unwritten rule ... "Whatever the subject,
a fight must ensue".

Grims


[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 4:10pm

What can I say, it makes life interesting. Seems like his key point is to
continue the bickering as well. Why else would he continue arguing that
it's offtopic (when it's not.. people just are sensitive to privacy) and
call me an idiot?

-Silenced

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 4:18pm

I don't necessarily agree with every word of Goober's post, or the way in
which he expressed it - that's his choice ... I just pulled out what I saw
as the relevant information - a practive that some other people here would
do well to follow.

I bet if an AW representative came in here and apologised to placate the
people that have a problem with this, then that woud STILL bnot be the end
of it ...

Grims.

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 4:19pm

I have talked with MrGrimm, that's all the bot does, is index. Your way too
unsecure to have a bot run through and grab your world title, welcome
message, and keywords (3.3). That's all it does, that's all it will ever
do. Stop trying to prove AWC wrong, you will loose. If you don't, just ban
the bot from your world and stop moaning.

-Joe

[View Quote] Aine

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 4:21pm

I would stop if we got an apology and a promise that they'll inform us of
any more information that pretains to us or the future browser in which they
need information in any way, shape, or form.

-Silenced

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 4:46pm

A bot like that can not only grab the world title, welcome message, and =
keywords, it can also grab the builder's list and then it's database can =
be used to identify which world cit#123456 has builder's rights in, and =
once it knows that, it can be programmed to systematically go from one =
world to the next destroying cit#123456's builds while leaving the rest =
of those worlds intact.

That's just one example of what could be done with the information =
contained in the World Rights box.

Aine


[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 4:46pm

Erm, its too early... *insecure

-Joe

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 5:46pm

I beg to differ. Go search for Skywalkeronline.net on Google and you'll
find it at the top of the page. I never submitted it to any search engine.

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 5:49pm

I said search engines use bots called spiders to go and build their
database. They mine the internet for data, which coincidentally is about
the same as mining world servers for search criteria.

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 5:50pm

Then maybe it's your website hoster? Check google for omegauniverse.com ..
it'll end up with no information. Robots check it daily as well. I've
never submited mine either ;)

-Silenced

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 5:51pm

And I thought I've seen everything. oi vey. Use some sense, Aine. No
company in their right mind would do that.

SW Chris

[View Quote] That's just one example of what could be done with the information contained
in the World Rights box.

Aine


[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 5:55pm

How about settling for door #2?

Get over it. *grin*

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 7:29pm

*chuckles*
Couldn't have said it better myself, Chris. =20
A lot of what's gone on the past month has seemed absolutely ludicrous.

Aine


[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 7:49pm

chris is right. It's just a bot and it's not a hack. As long as it doesn't
hurt people i doubt that anything is wrong with using it. Of course it's
common sense to tell people what you are doing...maybe have the bot say
"Your world is being scanned so it can be added to a search list. If you
don't want to be on the search list please contact [botmaker]". We all learn
lessons in life and I'm glad it was MrGrimm who first made this bot and not
some other person, at least he knows what he is doing. So, let's put it this
way...this was a test run....and the next bot will tell you what it's doing
and then something else after that...it's called BETA testing. One person
can't think of EVERYTHING, so give him a break.

Feb 23, 2002, 8:02pm

>If you don't, just ban
> the bot from your world and stop moaning.
Joeman...funny you should say that....the very first post on this stated,
and it has been stated over and over again "Someone without world bot rights
is using a bot in several worlds". That was the whole point...just who was
it that was entering without bot rights? I personally don't have any
concerns anymore but I sure was wondering at the time.
[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 8:56pm

Total paranoia ... P E R S P E C T I V E !!! Geesh!


[View Quote] Aine


[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 9:45pm

AWC does have control over your universe or galaxy if you buy one from them.

The universe/galaxy software communicates with AWC servers.

--
Thanks,
Derek Rayburn
derek at cyboria.com

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 10:39pm

Isn't that just to check that your Universe/Galaxy license is valid and that
you're "allowed" to run it?

-Agent1

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 11:18pm

Yes. That's all, Agent1. Nothing more, nothing less.

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 11:21pm

So unless they've stopped using spiders like they used four years ago and
web developers have stopped using Meta search tags in their pages, you're
absolutely right. But then why am I, as a web developer, still recommended
to add meta search tags? Maybe I'm not as educated about search engines as
I'd like to think. So perhaps you could explain? Thanks. :)

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 11:59pm

Um? What did I say for being "absolutely right." I just said I never
submitted mine. Yours doesn't have any meta tags on it either from what
I've seen, besides the obvious <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">

That would stand to prove that you or someone you know submitted it. I
don't have the meta tags on mine, it hasn't been indexed either. It's
recommended if you want to be indexed, I didn't want to be indexed at the
moment, so it doesn't matter to me.

The whole point is, why should we have our worlds included in the index? If
we want it to be, they should use a bot privilage that doesn't have rights
to the entire universe. And then they post it on their website, and provide
it in an e-mail to all world owners, if you want your world indexed, put the
bot's citnumber in the allow bot's field. Or better yet, include a webpage
where we can post *exactly* what it is that we want included in an index of
the world.

Why do they even need to do these beta's in secret? What in the world do
they have to hide from us that they can't tell us or send an e-mail? It's
very easy to use that database which sends out the newsletters to send an
e-mail. Then the issue of spam, but oh well, it's better then having things
go on behind your back.

I am sorry if you don't care about these things, but I do. And it seems I'm
not the only one. I hate when people, much less a company, does things
without the knowledge of their users.

It seems that some people like to complain about us "debaters" concearned
with privacy as much as we like to argue and complain. Really, if you don't
want to read it, quite simply, don't. If you don't care that a bot is
indexing your worlds, don't post in this thread. If you're sick of reading
these posts, don't read them. I'm not saying this to you, but to everyone
that is mad that we're trying to find out exactly *why* they need to keep it
secret in the first place, no matter if it is a beta run.

And as for Moff's post.. I don't feel like posting a new message for it, so
I'll say it here since it ties in with, "don't read it if you don't like
it." Although it's true, we do have some heated debates, these newsgroups
are some of the best palces to discuss ideas,problems, and get help. I seem
to notice that moff needed help with something the other day.. what if these
newsgroups weren't here? He might've been asking around a while to find the
answer. If you don't like what is said, I'll say it again, don't read the
darn post/thread. There was no reason to post that, if he's sick of it, too
bad so sad, just leave.

That's my opinion of the whole thing.

-Silenced

[View Quote]

Feb 24, 2002, 3:17pm

they own their software, but not the content created with their software.

KAH

[View Quote]

Feb 24, 2002, 7:40pm

Serious search engines check 2 entries to look if they
are allowed to index a site.

The first one is robots.txt, a special text file, that
can in- and exclude indexing for certain directories.
They always try robots.txt before they visit a new site.

The second one can be used inside of each HTML page,
it's the meta tag robots.
Of course nowadays most generated HTML code is crap, so
the meta tag might not be recognized.

[View Quote] --
"_
|
/\
\ /
__/ /_

Feb 24, 2002, 7:52pm

Still someone used a program to break into a computer
where this program was not allowed to be. It used a
(known but necessary) backdoor for a reason that was
not sufficient to use this backdoor. The idea of a
special citizen (came from several people) except for
#1 would have been good. The idea of a search index is
good too.

Many programs are only licenced to use, but still you
would not like the company who owns the licence to enter
your computer through a backdoor that is in their program
and collect informations (even not private ones) without
having informed and asked first.

My problem is really not the idea, my problem is the way.

[View Quote] --
"_
|
/\
\ /
__/ /_

Feb 24, 2002, 7:56pm

Opinion noted, and respected. Let me point something out though... I don't
think it's not so much wanting to keep everything secret, it is moreso the
necessity of not mentioning it. I heard it mentioned that the original
intention for the secrecy of this matter was to give everyone a pleasant
surprise when they got the 3.3 update installed. Of course I could be
wrong, but that's the impression I got.

SW Chris


[View Quote]

Feb 24, 2002, 8:08pm

Yeah, that's what I was concearned about, that they didn't tell us they'd be
doing it.

-Silenced

[View Quote]

Feb 24, 2002, 8:09pm

[View Quote] On the other hand, the rumormill is now talking about AWC charging $30 =
extra for that update to 3.3, even though world and 3D Homepage owners =
are still required to pay the Tourist Fee, free cits for world owners =
have been reduced or eliminated, and citizen prices have been raised. =20

How much more money do they expect us to pay before we even get a =
glimpse at the "promised new features"?

*shakes head* =20

And they have hopes of selling this browser on a CD?

They just don't get it down there at the home office, do they? =20

Aine

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