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Feb 22, 2002, 7:09pm

The point is not much about a bot entering our worlds.
In my opinion the point is more about privacy and courtesy.

While I am writing, I would like to give some informations I have
collected:

Worlds allowing tourists entrance:
Nothing will make them recognizable, neither in the world list nor in any
other ways.
(Source : reply from AW support.)

----

Article (part of it):
"For the 9 months
ended 9/30/01, revenues fell 64% to $398K. Net loss
totaled $1.7M vs. an income of $71K. Results reflect
reduced licensing of uniservers and galaxervers, increased
marketing costs and higher personnel expenses."
(Source :www.wallstreetcity.com)

----

Before the 2d of jannuary, the average of creation of new citizens was
around 40/day.
In february they are average 10/day.
(Source: a little script I made for the excellent Xelag bot. I run it each
day since about a year.)

Feb 22, 2002, 7:22pm

I never said it was,,it is "or whatever was collected" that worried me a
bit.If you had actually read my posting you would have come to the
conclusion that I do not personally thought this was a big deal.What worries
me is that they did not inform about it and what are they collecting next
time.Cit#1 could for example be there spying on what we talk or teoretically
copy a layout of a world and I think that would not be legal even tho AW.inc
own the software.The collecting of personal information was just an example
and I admit it had nothing to do with this particular case.

I NEVER said it was illegal .I also said that Cit#1 has the caretaker rights
in ecah world automatically and we have to accept it and yes they own the
software that was also what I said,,so I am not sure why you seem to reply
in a disagreeing tone.
Last I have a question to all.Have ANYONE ever read their policy? When they
stole my world name claiming it to be against the policy I requested 3 times
in e-mails to get the policy to be viewed,but without ANY success.I have a
feeling they have no policy but make it up as they are going along to suite
their needs.How are we supposed to follow a policy if we do not know what it
is?.

Drac
zeo toxion <b.nolan2 at verizon.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:3c769378$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> since when is the welcoem message and title (or whatever was collected)
> personal information about the user? never. The way i see it was there was
> no harm done and im glad people can find my world now although i dont see
> what the title OR welcome message has anything to do with whats in your
> world. I admit they should of at least mentioned it on the uni welcome
> message or the ngs but its over with boo hoo.
>
> And all you people who are claiming its illegal, its perfectly legal for
> them. CIt number 1 was MADE to have caretaker in all worlds for a reason,
> who says they cant use itm it IS their software and you are paying to USE
> it. You do not own your world server becuase you cannot sell it to other
> people or modify it. Try reading some of the user agreements or whatever
> they are called im pretty sure it will be explained in there.
>
> -Zeo Toxion
>
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 7:24pm

Wow... what marketing costs? I have never seen AW advertised on TV. Never
seen a single copy for sale on the shelf like the SIMS who sell like
hotcakes... and I have never seen it bundled with equipment like video
cards. I have never seen free CD's of AW at cash registers. But I have for
MSN and AOL. Yes there is a large loss of revenue since 1-2-02 The smaller
universes have liked the little spurt of people who left AW and went there.
Rule #1 in business, never insult or abuse your user base. My stats showed
AW selling more worlds in the 3rd and 4th quarters than they ever had. They
should have looked at their lacking for growth rather than the wallets of the
people who were nice enough to join. Perhaps the wasted money of partying
with friends in Vegas may have been better spent on a 30 second spot on a
daytime TV channel... just a thought...





[View Quote] > The point is not much about a bot entering our worlds.
> In my opinion the point is more about privacy and courtesy.
>
> While I am writing, I would like to give some informations I have
> collected:
>
> Worlds allowing tourists entrance:
> Nothing will make them recognizable, neither in the world list nor in any
> other ways.
> (Source : reply from AW support.)
>
> ----
>
> Article (part of it):
> "For the 9 months
> ended 9/30/01, revenues fell 64% to $398K. Net loss
> totaled $1.7M vs. an income of $71K. Results reflect
> reduced licensing of uniservers and galaxervers, increased
> marketing costs and higher personnel expenses."
> (Source :www.wallstreetcity.com)
>
> ----
>
> Before the 2d of jannuary, the average of creation of new citizens was
> around 40/day.
> In february they are average 10/day.
> (Source: a little script I made for the excellent Xelag bot. I run it each
> day since about a year.)

Feb 22, 2002, 8:01pm

Insanity, I was proving your point to him!!!! lol, got a filter on him or
something?

KAH

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 8:01pm

[View Quote] Insanity asked the question in his post, you replyed in a positive way,
meaning you obviously thought that this was the case. Read your own posts...

>
>
> I never said they owned the contents of a world.

but since they can do whatever they want with it, they've got to have some
sort of ownership of it, because if they haven't, they're breaking the law
by coming in and WITHOUT PERMISSION copy the property of others!

>
> owner!!! Not the AWC's!!!
>
> So?

They can't do no nothing with it without permission from the owner. They
didn't ask. What do you make out of those two sentences? They weren't in a
position to do what they did and shouldn't have!

>
>
> What about not being rude just because I questioned an article you posted
> about your bot on AWNews.com?

Come on, I'm not that petty, that has got NOTHING to do with your stupidness
around this matter!

Feb 22, 2002, 8:32pm

So
thinking,
computer
>
> Insanity asked the question in his post, you replyed in a positive way,
> meaning you obviously thought that this was the case. Read your own
posts...

I don't remember posting anything agreeing with any part of his post(s).

>
> but since they can do whatever they want with it, they've got to have some
> sort of ownership of it, because if they haven't, they're breaking the law
> by coming in and WITHOUT PERMISSION copy the property of others!

They don't have to have ownership to enter a world. Their software
automatically allows entrance to people with the citizen 1 privileges even
if it isn't included in the world rights dialog.

I do agree that if they were copying property without permission that it
would be both illegal and wrong, but no one has shown any evidence of that.

it's owner!!! Not the AWC's!!!
>
> They can't do no nothing with it without permission from the owner. They
> didn't ask. What do you make out of those two sentences? They weren't in a
> position to do what they did and shouldn't have!

Entering a world to build a search index?

posted
>
> Come on, I'm not that petty, that has got NOTHING to do with your
stupidness
> around this matter!

Apparently, you are and it does.

-Agent1

Feb 22, 2002, 10:14pm

Oooohh Ananas ... Look what you've done!! What the hell happened here?

Has it occurred to anyone that if the intention was to read/steal any
information from within a world, they would have found a much more inventive
way of doing it that sticking a damned bot in the world for a few seconds. I
can't believe so many people are taking offense at this ... is it just part
of the "Bash AW at any opportunity" mentaility or are people seriously so
uptight that this is a major issue for them?

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 10:31pm

Nah, just would've been nice if we were informed of their intention at the
get go instead of oops, that's my bot, don't fret, I didn't do anything.

-Silenced

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 10:33pm

This is quite rediculous. They do not have to keep on giving you
citizenships because you say they should. Just because you want something
doesn't mean you should get it. Here is a little analogy, because everyone
seems to like them. If you got a cell phone, and signed up for service with
Bob's Long Distance, and you got 100 minutes free as a sign on bonus, that
doesn't mean every time you pay your bill you are going to get those 100
minutes free. Thats the same with AW, the citizenships are a gift, a sort of
"sign on bonus." Companies aren't required to give free gifts, and if they
do, they don't have to keep on giving them to people. The whole purpose of
the free citizenships were for you to give to friends so they could check
out Active Worlds, and maybe even get their own world and such. If AWC
doesn't feel like giving out free citizenships anymore, they don't have to,
and they aren't required by the law to do so.
As with this whole spider thing . . . you people are arguing about
nothing. AW has any, and all right, to go into any world in the universe.
They do not have to ask permission, since basically all worlds are theirs.
You just pay a monthly fee to have land to build on, which you can
customize. Now if you get a galaxy or a universe, it is a one time fee,
meaning, AWC can't do anything to your galaxy or universe once you buy it.
The worlds, you rent, so they can do whatever they please.

Just my opinion, take it or leave it,
Jey (302100)

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 10:41pm

.... and so now people know ... and so now people can relax. Everyone knows
who MrGrimm is - there is only an issue here for people who want to twist it
and MAKE and issue.

Not sure why I'm contributing to it now ... go figure.

Grims

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 10:43pm

"You just pay a monthly fee to have land to build on . . ."
That should be yearly . . . my bad.

Jey (302100)

Feb 22, 2002, 11:58pm

If I really wanted to know how AW was screwing the world builders, then
I would visit... you guessed it! The worldbuilders newsgroup! This
little tiff of yours has absolutely nothing to do with anyone *but*
worldbuilders, therefore, it should stay *in* worldbuilders! How hard is
that to understand?

[View Quote] > It deals with the community and worldbuilders. The community deserves to
> know what AW's doing behind their backs.
>
> -Silenced
>
[View Quote]
--
Goober King
Don't you love it when other people decide what's important for you?
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Feb 23, 2002, 12:19am

Well, worldbuilders and server runners are a tad bit different, some people
who host servers don't necessarily own the worlds now do they? Ananas
wanted to confirm what this was, the best way to do that was to post in the
community newsgroup. Now, if you're in such a bad mood about it, quite
simply, don't read it. Block the darn thread if you want, who cares? Since
you feel the need to point out the moot, your post has nothing to do with
the original point of the thread, it belongs in general dicussion, please
post it in accordance.

-Silenced

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 3:24am

*raises hand* I second that Leo :o)

All this saber rattling is a waste of energy and if you disagree, call and
(pay) for their services to sue... lol

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 3:25am

oopsie.. pay for an attorney that is :o)

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 3:38am

Backdoor??!?! MrGrimm isnt hackin you, hes just running a bot through a
server, much as your browser would, and hes just loggin a few simple things
and leaving, hes not goin through all your personal files, or e-mails..

--
TrekkerX
Commatron & Athnex
Anti AOL Activist, and some other stuff...
http://www.commatron.com
http://www.athnex.com
[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 3:47am

In order to do that you have to put aw_delete_all_objects(); So if you put
it there its pretty ovous, otherwise you should of done your weekly backup
>:)

--
TrekkerX
Commatron & Athnex
Anti AOL Activist, and some other stuff...
http://www.commatron.com
http://www.athnex.com
[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 3:50am

I saw we all shut up and stop makeing such a big deal out of it, and we go
and stop drinkin so much coffie and leave it alone!

--
TrekkerX
Commatron & Athnex
Anti AOL Activist, and some other stuff...
http://www.commatron.com
http://www.athnex.com
[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 4:58am

An apology would have been nice for such a beach of netiquette
and an assurance that world owners will be informed of any future intrusions
by this or similar bots. Attacking respected citizens like Ananas & CarolAnn
only increases the suspicion that the bot might not be as innocent as it is
claimed to be.

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 6:15am

Now you're just being an idiot, Bowen. Frankly, I think you people are
getting stirred up over nothing, almost as if you *need* to be pissed
off about something, and so this seemed like a convenient topic. If the
thread had ended when 9 9 9 explained himself, then I wouldn't be
complaining. But instead, you people chose to drag it out into some sort
of long, draw-out argument over privacy. Therefore, if all you're going
to do is bicker endlessly, then take it to worldbuilders where people
might actually care.

This is hopefully the last time I'll have to point this out to you. I'm
not about to add any more to this retarded thread after this. Get a
grip, people!

[View Quote] > Well, worldbuilders and server runners are a tad bit different, some people
> who host servers don't necessarily own the worlds now do they? Ananas
> wanted to confirm what this was, the best way to do that was to post in the
> community newsgroup. Now, if you're in such a bad mood about it, quite
> simply, don't read it. Block the darn thread if you want, who cares? Since
> you feel the need to point out the moot, your post has nothing to do with
> the original point of the thread, it belongs in general dicussion, please
> post it in accordance.
>
> -Silenced
>
[View Quote]
--
Goober King
Worldbuilders: Rebels Without a Clue
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Feb 23, 2002, 1:46pm

uhm... MrGrimm said he copyed the title, greeting and keywords... that's the
property of the owner of the world. Ok, so it isn't as bad as querying the
world and copying it, but it's a matter of principle, because they could do
just that later on.
Entering a world to build a search index is "something", so they shouldn't
have done it without permission. If they had *asked* I'm pretty sure about
everyone would've let them, but when they don't it's a breach of privacy and
copyright. You wouldn't like it if your landlord came into your house
without asking first, even if it was his house, would you? (in this case, it
isn't even the AWC's own property, so you could look at them as burglars
entering the house). No, I'm not petty, your comments about my bot don't
change my feelings about what you're saying on *this* subject. Maybe you are
petty because you automatically assume I was being petty? Heard about
integrity?

KAH

<snip>

Feb 23, 2002, 2:35pm

What Grimble says has no bearing on what the bot actually does. How can
you be that stupid to actually believe that?

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 2:38pm

[View Quote] Principles are VERY worthwhile things to debate about. The fact that =
AWC management apparently doesn't understand the importance of =
principles, such as integrity and honesty, and continues to do one thing =
after another which blatantly points out their lack of principles, =
SHOULD be disturbing to anyone here who has money invested in worlds =
and/or citizenships. =20

Whether the bot was indexing or not isn't even a salient point in this =
debate, although I would like to point out that no one has actually =
PROVEN what the bot was actually doing or is capable of doing... we only =
have the word of one unidentified GrimReaper who supposedly works for =
AWC. =20

Aine

Feb 23, 2002, 2:47pm

Pardon me, I meant to say MrGrimm, not GrimReaper.

Aine


[View Quote] [View Quote] Principles are VERY worthwhile things to debate about. The fact that =
AWC management apparently doesn't understand the importance of =
principles, such as integrity and honesty, and continues to do one thing =
after another which blatantly points out their lack of principles, =
SHOULD be disturbing to anyone here who has money invested in worlds =
and/or citizenships. =20

Whether the bot was indexing or not isn't even a salient point in this =
debate, although I would like to point out that no one has actually =
PROVEN what the bot was actually doing or is capable of doing... we only =
have the word of one unidentified GrimReaper who supposedly works for =
AWC. =20

Aine

Feb 23, 2002, 3:01pm

he DOES work for AW and hes the one who did it so i think he would know what
he was doing

[View Quote] Aine


[View Quote] [View Quote] Principles are VERY worthwhile things to debate about. The fact that AWC
management apparently doesn't understand the importance of principles, such
as integrity and honesty, and continues to do one thing after another which
blatantly points out their lack of principles, SHOULD be disturbing to
anyone here who has money invested in worlds and/or citizenships.

Whether the bot was indexing or not isn't even a salient point in this
debate, although I would like to point out that no one has actually PROVEN
what the bot was actually doing or is capable of doing... we only have the
word of one unidentified GrimReaper who supposedly works for AWC.

Aine

Feb 23, 2002, 3:04pm

AW doesnt own there own software? Umm....im pretty sure we are all paying to
USE it. Im going to go read the agreement thingy right now anyways.

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 3:04pm

attacking? oh please....

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 3:12pm

*sigh*

[View Quote] Everyone who enters the world is shown that stuff whether they are employed
by the universe owners or not.

> Ok, so it isn't as bad as querying the world and copying it, but it's a
matter of principle, because they could do
> just that later on.

They *could* do it right now, but they haven't.

> Entering a world to build a search index is "something", so they shouldn't
> have done it without permission. If they had *asked* I'm pretty sure about
> everyone would've let them, but when they don't it's a breach of privacy
and
> copyright.

It's not a breach of anything to enter a world and copy some words that are
shown to everyone.

> You wouldn't like it if your landlord came into your house
> without asking first, even if it was his house, would you?

A more fitting analogy is a landlord opening the door with a key that you
always knew he had and agreed he could enter at any time. They then open the
door and write down some stuff you put on a welcome sign that anyone who
comes into your house sees.

> (in this case, it isn't even the AWC's own property, so you could look at
them as burglars
> entering the house).

No. They've always been able to enter all worlds.

> No, I'm not petty, your comments about my bot don't change my feelings
about what
> you're saying on *this* subject. Maybe you are petty because you
automatically assume
> I was being petty? Heard about integrity?

Whatever.


-Agent1

Feb 23, 2002, 3:12pm

Ok, and you think that's all it was doing, eh?
Seen any proof of that?

Aine

[View Quote]

Feb 23, 2002, 3:31pm

AW doesn't own the world you payed money for, no. You payed for use of the
browser with your citizenship. Paying for a world is an entirely different
license. And it's yours, not AW's.

-Silenced

[View Quote]

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