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Feb 21, 2002, 11:03pm

By MrGrimm:

"The bot only enters public worlds. It only looks at the world name (world
list), title (world attrib), and keywords (world attrib), nothing else.
These values are used for the world search page in AW3.3."

Hello? He said it only enters public worlds! If your world is public, you
must not be worried about people entering it and since the bot is doing no
harm and is only in for a split second to take information, why are you
wining? If you don't want the bot to come in, make your world private.

Using that same analogy, if you have a party open to everyone in your room,
you cannot just tell the landlord that he/she is not allowed to come.
Especially since he/she takes one step in, looks around, and leaves. What
would you be worried about then?
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 12:04am

a beta test ???
Is MrGrimm so sure of his work, he uses a beta software on real worlds???
what would happened if his bot sent an 'aw_delete_all_objects' command?
sure he is too smart to make such a mistake... BUT he gambles on our works !
would he send an email to worldowners saying 'sorry, i was doing a test'
???
this is not a lack of communication, this is a lack of professionalism.
or this is no more a beta ... so where is the email saying now they will use
a bot to enter my world without my permission? lack of communication for
sure ,lack of professionalism too.

Don t bother us with your sueing actions, legal is not the point, TRUST is
our main purpose:
show me a single line in the aw website where it is said Cit 1 has
unrestricted rights in every world? this could have been easily added to the
help file about rights...I simply can t trust someone that doesn t tell all
the truth.
sure AWCom can stop my world from running, that s part of our contract if i
misuse their products but in our contract it is said:
_You will also have full control over user functions like building, public
speaking, and who may visit your world._
(see http://www.activeworlds.com/products/worlds.asp ).. well what the heck
is doing this bot in my worlds.. i gave no bot right to user 1 !!!

The last few months have been rude.. they should act very cautiously , that
doesn t mean Hidden !! , that means clearly in front of us, and saying what
they want to do BEFORE actually doing it!!
I certainly could give them bot access if they asked for.

Oh yes , for now his bot just entered and left.. but what will do the next
bot?
adding an advertising sign in our world GZ? and what else?

What will happen if a dumb AWCOM staff member click on the wrong button of a
bot? just because he is using Cit 1Priv, he can delete everything...
well that is frightening to know that this cit 1 priv is used by every ppl
working in AWCOM..
if they need to use 'God' power to do their duty then it shows something is
wrong here...this must not be used on a day to day basis.. because one day
they will make a mistake, THIS IS HUMAN !! this should be use on only rare
and very specific occasions, and certainly not a trivial indexing thing.

Your point is they need to make an index that will be included in the next
release....
hey! that their softwares!! , they can change universe and world softwares
so they can share these informations. This bot using Cit1Priv is not a
solution, that sounds like an urging patch to get this indexing feature
available in time....a poor way to do things, very unprofessionnal.
Certainly a commercial decision, not a programmer decision.

your google comparison is irrelevant.... If i want a web site to be private
, i use a restricted access and none will be able to enter even googgle
....except the ones i selected .Does it sound familiar? well that was exactly
how a world WAS supposed to work......

I m really angry about this new stupid action from AWCom , and I say AWCom ,
not MrGrimm nor You, Joe.

Regards,
MilesTeg


"joeman" <Joeman at bootdown.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3c755af9$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> It was a beta test. Beta for crying out loud! It didn't touch anything,
> just entered, and left. That's all... Nothing was harmed. Your making
such
> a big thing out of this "Oh! Lets ban grimm for doing his job!" and
"That's
> illegal!". It was a test of the system. Go ban it if you don't like, but
> don't make false claims of something being illegal. Its just like google
> coming up and recording your website address, that is not illegal or
wrong.
>
> -Joe
>
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 12:14am

Do you let enter anyone just because he has the master key?
what is he hidding in his other hand?

my world is public to people, not to bots


"dion" <GovDion at subdimension.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3c7598c4$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> By MrGrimm:
>
> "The bot only enters public worlds. It only looks at the world name
(world
> list), title (world attrib), and keywords (world attrib), nothing else.
> These values are used for the world search page in AW3.3."
>
> Hello? He said it only enters public worlds! If your world is public, you
> must not be worried about people entering it and since the bot is doing no
> harm and is only in for a split second to take information, why are you
> wining? If you don't want the bot to come in, make your world private.
>
> Using that same analogy, if you have a party open to everyone in your
room,
> you cannot just tell the landlord that he/she is not allowed to come.
> Especially since he/she takes one step in, looks around, and leaves. What
> would you be worried about then?
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 12:15am

Hello? You are responding to a post that was made an hour before MrGrimm
explained who it was or what he was doing...and as you saw, Ananas's post
said in part "Someone without world bot rights is using a bot in several
worlds." So...using your analogy..that landlord is crashing the party
wearing a disguise. No invitation was required...but there was a sign saying
"no disguises allowed". Would you have known what it was if you had seen it
in the log of your world? You said >If your world is public, you must not be
worried about people entering it and since the bot is doing no harm and is
only in for a split second to take information, why are you wining? If you
don't want the bot to come in, make your world private.< Well "Public" is
allowed in BUT "bot" rights were not allowed...so maybe that explains the
reason for the original post. You supposedly did not have to make a world
private to disallow bots...understand now?

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 12:24am

Why do you not allow bots in? Because they can cause trouble, right? Well,
this bot comes in for a split second and noone even notices! He probably
comes up at -200m so noone can see him anyway. He doesn't talk, he doesn't
build, he doesn't log your chat. All it does is read the information from
the world stats in certain boxes so as to setup the search correctly.

Would you object if they did it without using a bot? Well, using the bot is
the exact same thing because you do not notice it at all, noone does.

I don't understand, what do you not like about this?
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 12:55am

I think the point here is SOME people would not mind BUT SOME would. So a
simple email from the management should clear that up, anyone who responds
and does not want to participate then fine. We (world owners) at least
deserve that respect.

Feb 22, 2002, 1:01am

LOL, that would be such idiocy. Do you think the bot is invading on your
privacy? Do you think it's logging your chat? I don't get it, where's the
problem?
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 1:19am

Dion, I don't say this to people often because I know when it happens it's
not usually the fault of the person but.....you are incredibly dense. Number
one (1)....when the original post was made, neither the poster nor the world
owner (me) knew what the bot was or who it represented so we had every right
to find out. Do you agree? Number two (2) not only did we not know who it
was, we did not know why it was there nor how it got in a world where bot
rights were not allowed. Do you get that? Was it invading privacy? Yes. Do
we think it was logging chat? Like I said...we didn't know WHAT it was doing
there. MrGrimm explained only later...after the first post was already made.
Do you understand thgis part? Number three (3) Let them put my worlds in
some database that can allow the features to be found using a search
utility...I love visitors. If they didn't want a reaction from me after
finding a strange world log entry though-they should have made sure I would
have no reason to question it. Why have a world log then? Do you understand
these things? Number four (4)...I am sure you must have someone reading
these posts for you so please ask them for me to do a better job of
explaining some of these posts. Thank you. And...as Steller says, some would
and some wouldn't want to participate and if closing worlds disallows
management to come in why shouldn't having no bot rights disallow them from
having that? They are allowed in my worlds in any way, shape or form, but if
it is presently disabled, ask me if I will change that for them, don't do it
for me. Is that all right with you?
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 1:40am

I know what's going on. Jeesh. Is it a crime to ask why you don't want it?
You still didn't answer that. Now that You know what the bot does, why would
you not want it to do that? It gets you more visitors and if you do not want
it, then I'm sure you can make those spaces in your world settings a blank
space of nothing. That would not allow people to find your world through a
search, although the bot would still come and check periodically.
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 2:31am

You're kidding right? Ok Dion, in my posts I said this "I personally think
that the apparent future browser feature sounds great -I'd like to see that
and I don't care if they
check out my worlds" and this "Let them put my worlds in some database that
can allow the features to be found using a search utility...I love
visitors." and this "They are allowed in my worlds in any way, shape or
form, but if it is presently disabled, ask me if I will change that for
them, don't do it for me." Do you understand that this arose when a strange
bot came into my worlds, not once but twice where no one has bot rights and
we wanted to know why and how? (Keep in mind AGAIN that MrGrimm hadn't
posted his explanation until after the initial post was made about it). Now,
I have certainly stated my feelings well beyond what was needed (please say
you agree Dion) and other world owners will have (and have a right to) their
own views on it within the boundaries of their world license agreements.
Thank you in advance for paying attention this time Dion because I can't
imagine what I could add (and promise I will not anyway) to make it clearer.

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 3:44am

Program driven data mining on a host that explicite denies
it is not legal in most countries.

There's not a probem with doing it by writing it down, the
problem is the usage of a backdoor. I have nothing against
someone indexing the worlds. The only problem in this case
is the usage of a backdoor.


[View Quote] --
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Feb 22, 2002, 3:52am

If it is AWCom, you're right, if it's someone else ...

[View Quote] --
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Feb 22, 2002, 4:54am

Oh lay off it. He let us know, isn't that enough for you? Besides, what
did the bot do? It created a search index. Good grief.

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 5:02am

This is exactly the point, especially if a world is not
hosted on an AW server.

The idea of a keyword search is good, the way it is done
(or just tested) is not.

[View Quote] --
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Feb 22, 2002, 5:08am

How in the hell do search engines work, ananas?

SW Chris

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 5:12am

You know what? I don't allow spyders to search my website, I payed for it,
and they still do.

AWC, this is madness. I have now gotten a small taste of what it's like to
be in your shoes.

SW Chris

[View Quote] > its
they
> news:3C755143.97611BC7 at oct31.de...
search
world
a
all
> of
> bot.
databased.
> 02:16
> relevant
> message
> this.
>
>

Feb 22, 2002, 5:32am

The user submits their site to the search engine. I thought indexing bots
just check for updates. My website hasn't been indexed in a search engine
and the bots visit it all the time.

Still a little warning would've been nice that they're testing this. And
instead of a bot doing all this, a submit site where we can submit our own
world info would've been great. Welcome messages and world titles sometimes
don't have anything to do with what's going on in the world.

-Silenced

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 6:12am

LOL Kah :o)

Haven't heard any rumors of AW employees heads turning in circles so not
worried about a cit# 1 bot

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 7:28am

are you really thinking that search engine use a backdoor??? LOL
I can t believe you said that.. LOL

does a search engine use a backdoor in http protocol? NO WAY
they use a simple http get request like any other browser do and most are
kindly enough to send an http header identifying their special browser and
most even check for a robot.txt file in your web site where they could find
your policies.
and you paied someone to disallow search engine on your website ??!! he
could easily do that...if it is not working like you want , it is not
because search engine use a backdoor.. it is just because this person took
your money and did nothing for you......if you need a private web site,
things will be even easier to do...

Regards,
MilesTeg


"sw chris" <chrisw10 at nckcn.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3c75ee7f$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> How in the hell do search engines work, ananas?
>
> SW Chris
>
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 8:38am

Activeworlds Corp. seems determined to prove they can do as they please when
they please without consulting World Owners. This is just another example of
their poor and inconsiderate management.

Basic good manners are free and promote good customer relations. When will
they learn to listen those that provide the income that pay their wages, to
consult us and to inform us and explain their intentions?

Using please and thankyou might be a good place AW Corp. to start on the
long slow trail to regain the confidence of us their customers, for without
us AW Corp. employees will soon be no more than an unemployment statistic.

Feb 22, 2002, 8:47am

Not a direct reply to this specific post but to the the tread in general.
I could bet my last cents on that this information collecting is done by the
universe software in the future and not by a bot.It would aslo make sense
,because that way the data in the search option would be easier to keep
updated (I belive).I also think that the world option could have one "page"
beside features and rights.It could be a page with a few simple questions
for the search data base like"public building "yes" or "no",tourists allowed
"yes" or "no" and a area where one could write in keywords for the search
index.That is the only way I think the search will be of any use ,otherwise
it will be a new feature that nobody has no use of (compare show
cellgrid).This all could result that you could have worlds listed depart
from users and alphabetical order ,as it is now, also according to
rating,building ,theme ,keyword or whatever u can come up with.Maybe
something that rightclicking a world in the tab should bring up a
discreption of the world if the owner has choosen to enter any info
there.This way people with a slowish connection would not need to download
worlds they just to find out that this is particulary a world they did not
want to see.

Secondly,I guess we can agree all that this particular bot did not harm our
worlds in any way.I just think people should be informed if the are forced
to take part in beta testing tho.I guess a rule is that the owner of the
world is the one deciding who has botrights in his/her/its world.Cit #1
automatically has caretaker rights in each world,so does this mean that if
someone that is allowed to use the privs of cit #1,decide to do something in
our world,we should just except it since by buying a worldlicense we agree
(not that they say it anywhere) to "give" caretaker rights to cit #1.Since
AW.inc owns the software I guess they teoretically has the legal right to do
whatever they want with it.I am not sure what the laws in USA are about
collecting information and keeping databases of personal information.I know
atleast in Finland it is illegal to sell information to a third part that
you have collected from your customer.I am not a lawyer so I do not know the
legal aspects on this,but I think it has a moral point.
Personally I think AW.inc should have some kind of guidelines about the
useage about cit #1.AW.inc own the software yes,but we buy our license to
our world and pay a yearly rent,should we then have full control over our
worlds or shall we accept the fact that cit #1 can do whatever it likes in
our world.
All in all, I think it would have been polite to inform the customers about
this beta testing.I am sure AW.inc has not broken the law by not doing
it,but if you start to use your customers as guinneapigs it might not be
moraly very right tho.
This was just a start,what if next time AW.inc decide to place a bot in each
world just to hang out there,shall we aprove that also,since cit #1 can do
that."If you give your little finger to the devil it will take your entire
hand"

Drac

ananas <vha at oct31.de> kirjoitti viestissä:3C74974A.DF5201FC at oct31.de...
> Someone without world bot rights is using a bot in several
> worlds. I checked the logs of several unrelated worlds that
> have no bot rights entry in common, and all showed
>
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 68.15.23.167:1725 -1 CONNECTED
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 -1 ENTER 30929
50
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 -1 IDENTIFIED
'[Search Spider]' 0 1
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 1 EVENT MASK
0x0
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 1 DISCONNECTED
>
> It seems to have gone through the world list in alphabetical
> order and stayed in each world only for seconds.
>
> No "Not welcome" message, traceroute reveals nothing.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> --
> "_
> |
> /\
> \ /
> __/ /_

Feb 22, 2002, 11:06am

I've seen it happen to a private world (in another universe running the AW
Uniserver software)...

KAH

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 12:27pm

I can confrim that, just tested it. I could add myself to the world eject list and to the universe eject list, both work.

Fox Mc Cloud

"joeman" <Joeman at bootdown.com> a écrit dans le message news: 3c75797a$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Do you know how ejection works? Here's a brief break down
>
> Right click > eject:
> Check if CT, if so, don't eject, else, eject.
>
> World options > eject:
> Disconnect user with IP, if connect again in timelimit set, disconnect.
>
> Cit #1 is CT in every world, you cannot eject CTs from right click and
> eject. But, if you add them in by hand, the world server will just
> disconnect them, regardless if they are CT. That's just how things work...
> They cant come back in and remove it, because the world server will just
> disconnect them.
>
> -Joe

Feb 22, 2002, 12:37pm

hummodd must be new uniserver software.

I used to have a world in another aw based Universe and a cit using cit1
privs was caught in this Red world and was ejected for life, he just came
back 5 times to listen into the debate that was going on at that time.

This person was only found to be using cit1 privs when a complaint was
submitted to aw for investigation and the cit was found to be using cit1
privs legally..

As such could not be included in any ejection list as cit1 has full rights
to do and go anywhere they like.
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 12:39pm

Ok, I don't think this is much of a problem (AW can do anything with cit #1 privs anyway, even modify anyone's build without him noticing (the name would still be yours), or see your password, ppw or anything else)

However, here's an idea to MrGrimm : if there has to be a search bot, you could make it enter on a known citizen number (500 for instance, anyway a simple to remember and unused cit). The worlds that want to be indexed would just add that number to their bot rights list. Even private worlds would be indexed if they gave that cit bot rights. And the procedure to be indexed would be explained on the keyword search page so everyone knows.

Fox Mc Cloud

"ananas" <vha at oct31.de> a écrit dans le message news: 3C74974A.DF5201FC at oct31.de...
> Someone without world bot rights is using a bot in several
> worlds. I checked the logs of several unrelated worlds that
> have no bot rights entry in common, and all showed
>
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 68.15.23.167:1725 -1 CONNECTED
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 -1 ENTER 30929 50
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 -1 IDENTIFIED '[Search Spider]' 0 1
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 1 EVENT MASK 0x0
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 1 DISCONNECTED
>
> It seems to have gone through the world list in alphabetical
> order and stayed in each world only for seconds.
>
> No "Not welcome" message, traceroute reveals nothing.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> --
> "_
> |
> /\
> \ /
> __/ /_

Feb 22, 2002, 12:40pm

Gee, in such cases you just change the cit1 ppw :)

Fox Mc Cloud

"wizard myrddin" <wiz at rdescape.com> a écrit dans le message news: 3c7657b0 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> hummodd must be new uniserver software.
>
> I used to have a world in another aw based Universe and a cit using cit1
> privs was caught in this Red world and was ejected for life, he just came
> back 5 times to listen into the debate that was going on at that time.
>
> This person was only found to be using cit1 privs when a complaint was
> submitted to aw for investigation and the cit was found to be using cit1
> privs legally..
>
> As such could not be included in any ejection list as cit1 has full rights
> to do and go anywhere they like.

Feb 22, 2002, 1:15pm

From what I can tell AWLD has made not formal request nor have they
stated it was them. I have seen someone who has a screen name of Mcgrim
claim it was AW work but here is the problem.

1. The IP is located in the Atlanta area as being owned by COX
Communications. That indicates that it is a cable internet connection of
a private household.

2. Considering that of #1 it means the imformation collected went to
someone's PERSONAL PC and not a corporately owned computer within AW's
offices. The IRS might find this tactic very interesting!

3. Seeing how it was a private PC outside of AW's offices this DIRECTLY
constitutes a VIOLATION of world owners privacy.

Now.. if you wish you might want to contact abuse at cox and tell them of
the illegal activities that IP has been up to.

I have no problem with AW advancing their product but there are laws in
the U.S. Just because they want to contract out to someone to sit at
home and write some software additions does not mean they are legally
allowed to violate privacy issues or TOS agreements of isp's. Regardless
of AW's excuses it still boils down to this individual having your data
on his PC.

Until someone starts taking AW into court and forcing them to operate
within the Laws they will continue to do as they please believing that
AW users are idiots that will accept any abuses from them they wish to
inflict.

The software that Roland has written is great... it is a shame that the
company operating it is not. Just like the FREE citizenships that came
with all of our worlds. I know that I will file suit if they fail to
replace them when I renew the worlds. I have the e-mails stating here
are your FREE cits. They can do what they like with new accounts and
change licenses however they wish on those but they better sober up to
what they already have done and abide by those words FREE!!!! I am not
out to hurt AW at all. I am out to FORCE them to act legitimately for
ONCE!!!!!

Take care all... it is so sad to see so many people everyday hurt
because AW could care less about them. The type in this post are simply
my opinions and that GOD I am an American where that is legal!





[View Quote] > This is exactly the point, especially if a world is not
> hosted on an AW server.
>
> The idea of a keyword search is good, the way it is done
> (or just tested) is not.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 1:21pm

[View Quote] They DID. lol. A lot of them WOULD want it. But they are arguing on
principle here. I hope you understand that people can do that. What they are
debating about is not whether they'd let the bot in, which is what you are
blindly trying to debate about. They are debating on the topic of why the
bot was let in without their permission. A lot of them DISABLED bot access
in their worlds, and yet a bot came into it. First of all, that loses a
sense of trust in your world's security. Second, it creates anger towards
the person that did it, in this case, AWC. They'd still be in an uproar
whether a hacker did it or the company itself no matter WHAT purpose. Why?
Principle, you just don't come into a party when you're uninvited. If you
did, people will get defensive.

>Now that You know what the bot does, why would
> you not want it to do that?

AHH!! They WOULD!!! I'm sure all of them would. But the fact of the matter
is, they didn't know, and to own a world that costs a LOT of money and not
know what is going on is scary at the least.

>It gets you more visitors and if you do not want
> it, then I'm sure you can make those spaces in your world settings a blank
> space of nothing. That would not allow people to find your world through a
> search, although the bot would still come and check periodically.

Whether they want or don't want visitors is not the point. You're pointing a
point where it shouldn't go because we ALL agreed on this point miles up on
the thread.

Nornny

[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 2:01pm

LOL, the principle is a pretty stupid thing to debate about.
*roll eyes* Now AWCom has to ask permission to update their own program? LOL
:)
[View Quote]

Feb 22, 2002, 2:24pm

Well children, the bot entered Holistic and left, BFD!!. Thats about as bad as cutting across
ones lawn, so what?. Grow up. No harm, no foul. I am sure you all can think of something more
worthwhile to bitch about than this. And don't talk to me about your precious "rights" being
crossed. Bullshit. You know damn well that you are only licensed to USE the world and browser
software, so don't get into such a huff when the owners decide to stop in and check PUBLICLY
available information.

Holistic1

[View Quote] > Someone without world bot rights is using a bot in several
> worlds. I checked the logs of several unrelated worlds that
> have no bot rights entry in common, and all showed
>
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 68.15.23.167:1725 -1 CONNECTED
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 -1 ENTER 30929 50
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 -1 IDENTIFIED '[Search Spider]' 0 1
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 1 EVENT MASK 0x0
> Wed 02/20/02 18:21:44 worldname 68.15.23.167:1725 1 DISCONNECTED
>
> It seems to have gone through the world list in alphabetical
> order and stayed in each world only for seconds.
>
> No "Not welcome" message, traceroute reveals nothing.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> --
> "_
> |
> /\
> \ /
> __/ /_

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