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Feb 2, 2003, 5:00pm

Good question:)

Well we can choose to, but if we get addicted and forget to sleep, shall we
blame someone else than ourselves?
But I just think the issue is more like, if we choose to do something, is it
worth it ?
Is is worth risking lives of people , just because we can do it, just
because we want to do something we maybe are not created to do?


Drac
carolann <carolannh at charter.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:3e3d688c$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> We have the ability to explore cyberspace....should we be here?
[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 5:01pm

[View Quote] We created that ourselves. It's ours to do with what we wish.

There are always bad and good sides to everything. Light bulbs, cars, guns,
computers, electricity, space travel, nuclear reactors, et al.

--Bowen--

Feb 2, 2003, 5:06pm

> So we need to do whatever we can, just because we can ?

Why shouldn't we? Would you rather still be living in the trees because an ancestor
of yours never took advantage of bipedal walking? Or if you're a creationist; would
you rather not believe in a god because your ancestor never used their imagination to
think up such a thought?

> Sure go ahead and fly to the moon, I am just wondering is it worth all the
> trouble? Have we learned something by flying in space that has been
> essential to our existance? Is it worth to spend 300 miljon dollars? to find
> out how a cactus react in space?

Yeah, and it could lead to medicines which cure cancer and other diseases. Like I
said earlier, everything has a good and bad side.

> to swim and
> are eyes
> listen to
> listening?
>
> Swimming for example do not require so much, one just need to know how to
> swim and some water.
> Yes we can do things because we can, but at some point we might need to stop
> and thing, is it worth it?

If we didn't look in spectrums we don't normally see in, you might not be able to
detect cavities or bone fractures that are not noticable. If we didn't listen into
sound ranges we don't normally hear in, we might miss out contact with other
civilizations, or not even have technology such as the TV or radio.

Think of all the things you take for granted that came from space travel. Velcro and
microwave are some of the more wide spread ones.

--Bowen--

Feb 2, 2003, 5:09pm

> Is is worth risking lives of people , just because we can do it, just
> because we want to do something we maybe are not created to do?

It was their risk to take. No one said they HAD to do what they do. They did it
because they enjoyed it. Our bodies are very well adapted to most any environment we
have access to. Space seems to be one of the environments are bodies fit well into.

Hey, gravity isn't needed for swallowing right?

--Bowen--

Feb 2, 2003, 5:31pm

We should always attempt to go beyond where we are and where we've been or
we'd never get anywhere.

And there is nothing wrong with honoring those brave and adventurous to make
the attempt. They are, after all, the ones (most of) the rest of us will
eventually follow.

Just by chance (what, again?) I saw a movie last week (I had previously read
the book but was still fascinated) about Ernest Shackleton. He was
memorialized as much for his bravery and for what he desired to achieve as
for his accomplishments because he actually failed at many of his attempts.
He and his scraggly crew were memorialized eventually, and still are, just
as the Columbia crew are and will be-and deserve to be. And we sure need to
know what's going on around us to advance our circumstances (when things go
right). No politics need enter into that.

Yes we always need to stop and think about where we are and where we've been
and whether it's been worth it. But we have to do it first to have something
to analyze.

But let it be known that, as your friend Dracula, I for one would have at
any time memorialize you in my small way, as I'm sure many others would
have, should anything have happened to you to take you away from the living
(for example, falling off your high horse). You don't have to be a hero or
an American to be remembered, you need only be a friend.

[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 5:42pm

But why should we? Where should we draw the line or should we ?
Truthfully, I think mankind would be much more happy living in a tree; when
have you last time seen a sad , depressed and suicidal ape?
All this technology has not made mankind more happy, people are lonlier than
ever.
I do not say that spacetraveling is nonsense, I just question it, is it all
worth it?
Will we find cure for cancer in space ? I doubt that.
World is already overpopulated, one way or another there will be a radical
reducion in the number of humans.

Drac
bowen <thisguyrules at 7k2.4mg.com.ANTISPAM> kirjoitti
viestissä:3e3d6c3b$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
>
> Why shouldn't we? Would you rather still be living in the trees because
an ancestor
> of yours never took advantage of bipedal walking? Or if you're a
creationist; would
> you rather not believe in a god because your ancestor never used their
imagination to
> think up such a thought?
>
the
find
>
> Yeah, and it could lead to medicines which cure cancer and other diseases.
Like I
> said earlier, everything has a good and bad side.
>
ability
spectrums
to
to
stop
>
> If we didn't look in spectrums we don't normally see in, you might not be
able to
> detect cavities or bone fractures that are not noticable. If we didn't
listen into
> sound ranges we don't normally hear in, we might miss out contact with
other
> civilizations, or not even have technology such as the TV or radio.
>
> Think of all the things you take for granted that came from space travel.
Velcro and
> microwave are some of the more wide spread ones.
>
> --Bowen--
>
>

Feb 2, 2003, 5:52pm

carolann <carolannh at charter.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:3e3d71f4$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> We should always attempt to go beyond where we are and where we've been or
> we'd never get anywhere.

I agree to some point, we need to explore yes. But what has mankind to get
in space for example?
If god had meant us to fly we would have wings:)

>
> And there is nothing wrong with honoring those brave and adventurous to
make
> the attempt. They are, after all, the ones (most of) the rest of us will
> eventually follow.

Nothing wrong with that , true
>
> Just by chance (what, again?) I saw a movie last week (I had previously
read
> the book but was still fascinated) about Ernest Shackleton. He was
> memorialized as much for his bravery and for what he desired to achieve as
> for his accomplishments because he actually failed at many of his
attempts.
> He and his scraggly crew were memorialized eventually, and still are, just
> as the Columbia crew are and will be-and deserve to be. And we sure need
to
> know what's going on around us to advance our circumstances (when things
go
> right). No politics need enter into that.
>
> Yes we always need to stop and think about where we are and where we've
been
> and whether it's been worth it. But we have to do it first to have
something
> to analyze.

I do not say it is wrong to remember ppl who has done something; to me it
just seems things get out of proposition sometimes.
The boy who was killed last week could have been the inventor of cure
against AIDS or cancer, will he get a monument? Will these people who died
flying a spaceship get a monument; the people who might have some day found
a profe of something essential to mankind in outersapce?
>
> But let it be known that, as your friend Dracula, I for one would have at
> any time memorialize you in my small way, as I'm sure many others would
> have, should anything have happened to you to take you away from the
living
> (for example, falling off your high horse). You don't have to be a hero or
> an American to be remembered, you need only be a friend.

That has been about my point all the time; let the friends mourn in peace,
dont turn everything into a media circus.
Dont start selling memorial spaceshipcrew dolls etc.

I would really like to hear what the family memebers of those who died think

Drac
>
[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 6:18pm

You don't criticize governments in a thread about a tragedy!

What you people don't realize is that it's not about the western world.
President Bush is putting millions of dollars into AIDS research that will
first be used in Africa, not the United States. You think the western world
doesn't care about the eastern world?

Seven people died yesterday, doing something of international reknown. An
Israeli, who is from the eastern world, died in that shuttle. The American
people would express similar condolenses if a Russian Soyez capsule
disintegrated carrying cosmonauts back to Earth.

You are nothing but snakes. And you only see what you want to see.

You are blinded by your prejudices that you are willing to make anything
political to prove your point. Even an international tragedy. And that
only shows your ignornace and hypocracy.

Wake up! Or ship out, sailors. We do not need people like you here. We
need people we can respect.

Chris


[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 6:21pm

> If god had meant us to fly we would have wings:)

According to Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam, we were givin free will. Which means
we have the power to fabricate our own wings and devices.

--Bowen--

Feb 2, 2003, 6:26pm

[View Quote] Europeans tend to be more apathetic towards others. I don't know if we should blame
them, but, at least the US _tries_ to help others and do what is right.

Spare me the, "it involves oil", which almost all Europeans argue this is about. I
didn't see the British complain when Spain pillaged the gold of the Americas.

--Bowen--

Feb 2, 2003, 6:28pm

Quotes from count dracula:
"Is it really neccesary to have a memorial for everyone who dies ( if he or
she happens to be from the "western" world)."
It is necessary for countries to express their condolenses for something
that is obviously an international tragedy. An Israeli and six Americans
died. One from the eastern world, and six from the west.

People starve to death each day, who makes memorials for them?
Their families. Those deaths, unless en masse, are not on an international
scale. There have been memorial services for those who have died needlessly
before. Nelson Mandela was congratulated by leaders from all over the world
after he ended apartide in Africa. President Bush is sending millions to
research a vaccine/cure for AIDS. Africa will be the first to benefit from
that, not the US. The United States also spends trillions on international
aid, making air drops and whatnot with foodstuffs. If the US stopped food
production the world would be starving within the month.

I bet Stupid Bush will blame this on Saddam, and it seems one jew was on the
ship also, so i bet this will give Israel a reason to nuke Arafat and keep
on harrising the palestinians..."
You see things through political eyes, but it's not a political issue.
That's what I have a problem with.

Why don't I see your critical views of European, Iraqi, and other leaders
being posted on this board? The only views I ever see are ones against the
American government.

Government criticism is fine, but this thread is not the place for it. That
is my problem with you and joker.

Chris


[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 6:39pm

Why should we? The pursuit of knowledge and wisdom is a very noble
prospect. <insert dry wit here> If you're so concerned about
overpopulation, then populating the moon is the best way to rid us of that
problem.

Chris

[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 6:45pm

Nobody's selling spaceship crew dolls... Stop spinning.

Chris


[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 6:49pm

Actually, my problem with joker is that his comment was racist and
anti-semetic.

Chris

[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 7:29pm

You ain't any better.

[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 7:29pm

sw chris <chrisw10 at skywalkeronline.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:3e3d7f88 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Quotes from count dracula:
> "Is it really neccesary to have a memorial for everyone who dies ( if he
or
> she happens to be from the "western" world)."
> It is necessary for countries to express their condolenses for something
> that is obviously an international tragedy. An Israeli and six Americans
> died. One from the eastern world, and six from the west.

Some people like to consider the isrealians as a part of the "western
civilized " world.
I jsut think it is out of propositin, 7 people died, it is bloody sad yes.
Not long ago a plane crashed in Turkey with international victims, I did not
see any extra broadcats on Tv because of that
>
> People starve to death each day, who makes memorials for them?
> Their families. Those deaths, unless en masse, are not on an
international
> scale. There have been memorial services for those who have died
needlessly
> before. Nelson Mandela was congratulated by leaders from all over the
world
> after he ended apartide in Africa. President Bush is sending millions to
> research a vaccine/cure for AIDS. Africa will be the first to benefit
from
> that, not the US. The United States also spends trillions on
international
> aid, making air drops and whatnot with foodstuffs. If the US stopped food
> production the world would be starving within the month.

Fine, I never denied he has done good things, just in my opinion, one right
thing do not entitle to do one wrong
>
> I bet Stupid Bush will blame this on Saddam, and it seems one jew was on
the
> ship also, so i bet this will give Israel a reason to nuke Arafat and keep
> on harrising the palestinians..."
> You see things through political eyes, but it's not a political issue.
> That's what I have a problem with.

For the love of god, this was a sarcastic comment not to be taken so dead
serious
>
> Why don't I see your critical views of European, Iraqi, and other leaders
> being posted on this board? The only views I ever see are ones against
the
> American government.

Well I do!! I critizice EU every time I get a chance to. I write letters to
the goverment memebers in my country about issues that I feel is wrong. I
can start posting anti-EU, anti-Iraque postings here also if it makes you
feel better?
>
> Government criticism is fine, but this thread is not the place for it.
That
> is my problem with you and joker.

Ok I admit, my timing was bad, I am sorry for that. I should have started a
new one.
But the main thing with my post was not the goverment criticism, more the
fact I find people over-reacting.
As I replied in one letter adressed directly to me. I am not against
memorials and historical places. I just think if one have too much of them
people get fed up and will not notice/remember the "important" one. I
consider ( this is my opinion) for example the holocost ( however it is
spelled) World Wars and also the NY terror attack as tradegies in the
history of humanity. These are things we should never forget and never allow
to happen again. But as I said if you have one diamond and put it in a
basket of "diamonds" made of glass, it is very hard to spot the real one. I
do not think 7 people dieing is tradegy for human kind, it IS a tradegy for
the families and friends of those who died yes.

Drac
>
> Chris
>
>
[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 7:33pm

My dear friend, I am not so concerned about the over-population, it is
simply biology. If a population grow too big nature will take care of it so
it drops down to a smaller amount, from where it starts to grow again. We
cannot fight the nature, well we can, but in the end we will loose.
Populating moon is more like a transfereing a problem, not solving it. I can
imagine it might happen some day, but we have far to go there yet. I am
quite sure some major disater will take care of us before that.

Drac
sw chris <chrisw10 at skywalkeronline.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:3e3d821a$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Why should we? The pursuit of knowledge and wisdom is a very noble
> prospect. <insert dry wit here> If you're so concerned about
> overpopulation, then populating the moon is the best way to rid us of that
> problem.
>
> Chris
>
[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 7:34pm

Free will,,, I think that would need a new looong thread:)

Drac
bowen <thisguyrules at 7k2.4mg.com.ANTISPAM> kirjoitti
viestissä:3e3d7dbf at server1.Activeworlds.com...
>
>
> According to Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam, we were givin free will.
Which means
> we have the power to fabricate our own wings and devices.
>
> --Bowen--
>
>

Feb 2, 2003, 7:36pm

Not yet Chris, not yet.

Drac
sw chris <chrisw10 at skywalkeronline.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:3e3d834f at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Nobody's selling spaceship crew dolls... Stop spinning.
>
> Chris
>
>
[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 7:43pm

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Don't prevent it from coming tru!

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Feb 2, 2003, 10:55pm

I fail to see the relevance of this, we ruled the planet anway.. we just get
it all back for ourselfs. ^_^

- Mark

[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2003, 11:58pm

It's a tragedy for humankind because the people that were lost were some
of the best the world had to offer: PhD's, military personnel, and so
forth. Not only that, but the fact that we lost them simply because of
an accident, rather than some calculated attack or whatever, makes it
that much more tragic.

[View Quote]
--
Goober King
How many different ways do you need to say "tragedy" before it sinks in?
gooberking at utn.cjb.net

Feb 3, 2003, 12:33am

first of all it was a joke , if you dont like ti deal with it , you guys
make fun of iraqi ppl and that allright of course ?

Feb 3, 2003, 1:16am

[View Quote] Just because some of the radicals choose to discriminate doesn't mean all of us do.
They're probably actually in the minority. As for Europeans and the Jews... it tends
to be the opposite. No matter if you're talking about the Jews as a people or just
the Isreali Government.

It certainly didn't sound like a joke.

--Bowen--

Feb 3, 2003, 1:20am

it was plain text, and why should i care what others think

Feb 3, 2003, 1:23am

[View Quote] OK, so you don't have concern for others then?

--Bowen--

Feb 3, 2003, 3:22am

Space is a very, very large place. No one quite knows what's out there... except for a potentially unlimited amount of resources, energy, and colonization space. Infinity reaps all possibilities.

However, this is of no importance: what is more important to the present is that the international space program actually force some of our petty governments to work together because they wish to achieve a solitarily unreachable goal. Even the almighty United States has its economical limits. Scientific communities have often overlooked the boundaries of nationality in the name of knowledge, but none have done it to a greater degree than space programs (excluding the Cold War, of course). The International Space Station, and the international space program in general, is a symbol of peace and greater international cooperation - a trademark of the ideals of the United Nations, if you will.

Mankind always unites in the face of a great danger that threatens the entire species, but it can also unify to reach a common dream. Man can never resist a question, and the mysteries of the stars have plagued his mind for thousands of years.

Among potential peace in the name of space, exploration offers benefits for generations to come. The European powers (Spain, Portugal, France, England...) lost many lives in the name of exploration. It took many years to reap the benefits of their labors and woes. But in the end, a whole new world had been discovered and new cultures sprouted and grew.

If you're asking for instant results, then you will have to keep asking in vain. These kinds of endeavors take generations. It is most likely that you and I will never see the outcome of this particular trek.

But Columbus never lived to see the Americas claimed under European rule, Magellan didn't live to make around the world, Amelia Earhart didn't aerially circumnavigate the world. The first steps are always the toughest, but they have to be made by someone.

[View Quote] > I agree to some point, we need to explore yes. But what has mankind to get
> in space for example?

Feb 3, 2003, 5:44am

Well Bowen, it is because IT IS about the oil. Middle east has some 65%? of
the oil and America 4%? , and who needs most oil in the world? who gives a
shit about Kioto agreement and reducing pollution?

Well I would have critiziced that when spanish and portugise killed the
americans, I would have protested when the indians were killed and their
land stoled, I would have protested when there was slaves on the cotton
fields, BUT it was slightly before my time, so I guess I need to be critical
toward things I feel is wrong in my time or will be in the future. It will
not help if I go out in the streets and start yelling Bloody spanish, stop
stealing the gold of the mayas!

Drac
bowen <thisguyrules at 7k2.4mg.com.ANTISPAM> kirjoitti
viestissä:3e3d7ede$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...

>
> Spare me the, "it involves oil", which almost all Europeans argue this is
about. I
> didn't see the British complain when Spain pillaged the gold of the
Americas.
>
> --Bowen--
>
>

Feb 3, 2003, 5:57am

Well, as I see it , you can make a list of ANY 50 ppl in the world and kill
them and it will not be a tradegy for humankind. A disiese killing a few
million is , some natural disater whiping away a continent is. Ppl come and
ppl go, no singular person has magnificant meaning for mankind, he might
cause some meaning by his action, but as an individual he is not important.
Nevertheless, everythime a person dies, it is a huge tradegy for the
families and friends, but not for mankind. Death is a natural process of our
life. We will all die, yet it always come as a big surprise.

What comes to this specific occasion with this spaceshuttle; I am sure the
ppls involved was aware of the risks, it was their decission to do a job
like that, after all they could have choosen a deskjob ( and be hit by the
bus on their way home).
I do not want to cause any disrespect towrads the families and friends of
those who died. What happened is a tradegy for them.
Drac
goober king <gooberking at utn.cjb.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:3E3DCCA4.2020303 at utn.cjb.net...
> It's a tragedy for humankind because the people that were lost were some
> of the best the world had to offer: PhD's, military personnel, and so
> forth. Not only that, but the fact that we lost them simply because of
> an accident, rather than some calculated attack or whatever, makes it
> that much more tragic.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 3, 2003, 6:11am

I have never said people should not explore, just that exploring and beeing
a pioneer often involves risks.
Europe has a spaceprogram, called ESA I belive. Not long aga a shuttle
exploded (there was no ppl abroad). When I heard that it was sent to space
because they wanted to see how moss survive in space, I could not but start
thinking but,, oh the moss communities are going to move to space? Are they
trying to escape the raindeers? Will the raindeers follow?
I am not sure if I want my taxmoney to be spent on things like this. Instead
of trying to explore, whatever it cost, I think one should try to use the
money and resources to make the world we live in better.
I am now aware that moss might be an important oxygen producer if space will
be inhabited, but yet, I think it is silly. Heck can one not simulate
"space" on earth? To me it would be more importnat to see that nobody goes
hungry and homeless in the world of today than to figure out if moss like to
be in space. Just my opinion, feel free to have other opinions, I have never
claimed to be right about anything.

Drac
shred <shred at myrealbox.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:3e3dfca7 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Space is a very, very large place. No one quite knows what's out there...
except for a potentially unlimited amount of resources, energy, and
colonization space. Infinity reaps all possibilities.
>
> However, this is of no importance: what is more important to the present
is that the international space program actually force some of our petty
governments to work together because they wish to achieve a solitarily
unreachable goal. Even the almighty United States has its economical limits.
Scientific communities have often overlooked the boundaries of nationality
in the name of knowledge, but none have done it to a greater degree than
space programs (excluding the Cold War, of course). The International Space
Station, and the international space program in general, is a symbol of
peace and greater international cooperation - a trademark of the ideals of
the United Nations, if you will.
>
> Mankind always unites in the face of a great danger that threatens the
entire species, but it can also unify to reach a common dream. Man can never
resist a question, and the mysteries of the stars have plagued his mind for
thousands of years.
>
> Among potential peace in the name of space, exploration offers benefits
for generations to come. The European powers (Spain, Portugal, France,
England...) lost many lives in the name of exploration. It took many years
to reap the benefits of their labors and woes. But in the end, a whole new
world had been discovered and new cultures sprouted and grew.
>
> If you're asking for instant results, then you will have to keep asking in
vain. These kinds of endeavors take generations. It is most likely that you
and I will never see the outcome of this particular trek.
>
> But Columbus never lived to see the Americas claimed under European rule,
Magellan didn't live to make around the world, Amelia Earhart didn't
aerially circumnavigate the world. The first steps are always the toughest,
but they have to be made by someone.
>
[View Quote]

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