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Feb 13, 2003, 12:09am

BWAHAHAHA !!! at "house sneaks up on me"
Not if I turn around and see it coming tho ;O)
JB


[View Quote]
> If I don't use create move but you do and your house sneaks up on me ... it
> affects EVERYONE
>

Feb 13, 2003, 12:11am

[View Quote] As long as Philippe stays.

--Bowen--

Feb 13, 2003, 2:59am

Oye I've tried to get my word in to Enzo countless times now and never get a
response. Maybe today is my window.

Ok first of all regarding vandal - yes it can happen. But I'm wondering
just how bad it'll get. I've heard from multiple creditable sources that
AWTeen has no problem with move and rotate. And second, AW does have a
developed "law enforcement" group - The PKs along with GET. I don't think
it would take long to get the word out that you can get in big trouble for
abuse.

Everything is getting too boring on AW. I can't keep interested anymore.
I'm mostly community driven and it's probably why I'm still here after all
these years. But AW hasn't seen a head turning change for about *13* months
now, that's just sad =| I remember when me and the SW City staff got word
of the move and rotate bug. The city burst out of it's depression and we
were having a blast. The city and active community sure grew a lot in those
few weeks. We were making awesome intractable builds we haven't been able
to do before. And sure enough when the bug was fixed, things slipped away
again.

Bottom line is that if Alphaworld is going to be the big primary building
world like it is now, it's gonna need to upgrade progress like the rest of
mankind and technology, or it's toast X_X

One last note is that AWI shouldn't focus all their attention into NewAW
because you just can't do everything like you can in AW. It looks to be
very very difficult if you wanted to run a town, or just build till your
eyes fall out, lol. That's what's AW for.

AW = living in a 2.2 world

- SW Comit

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Feb 13, 2003, 4:15am

Dear Mr. Noll and who it may concern,

First off all, Mr. Noll I want to express my thanks to you for opening this
topic up to discussion. Secondly, I apologize in advance for the length of
this post. There is a lot on my mind and I want to give it my best effort
to present my opinions on this matter with the various facts and evidence to
support them.

It is my personal belief that a healthy balance can be achieved between
Active Worlds Inc., those who want updated features in Alphaword, and those
who don't, with sacrifices made by the latter two parties in the name of
compromise.

The first thing I want to say is that I urgently encourange not just setting
up a poll on this subject, but an entire survey. There are simply too many
variables to be covered by a generic question. For instance, one could want
Demeter-bot enabled terrain while the same person would not want a skybox.
The results of this survey, every thing else being held constant, should
determine which features are enabled in Alphaworld and which aren't.

Secondly, I would like to talk with you about some of these features and how
they could vastly improve the creativity of those who build in Alphaword,
specifically Move, Rotate, 3d Axis Rotation, and Demeter-enabled terrain.
No cases involving the irresponsible use of Move and Rotate when they were
exploited earlier last year were ever reported to Garbage Elimination Team
or the Peacekeepers. Peacekeeper sources can document this. There has also
been very little trouble, if any, concerning the use of any of these
features in AWTeen. The AWTeen caretakers Chanty and Poseidon can verify
this as well. AWTeen's situation could very well be considered a test for
Alphaword. Mr Noll, I must say that this test was successful. The time
that these features have been in use in AWTeen and were exploited by a bug
in Alphaworld was quite considerable, and the damage done by vandals is
still very low. This is saying something very positive about the
responsibility of Active Worlds users.

In addition, we must also work with the Peacekeepers and Garbage Elimination
Team and see if they are willing and prepared to take on the added duty of
policing these new features, and 3D axis rotation. Based on the cases cited
above, the end result of Move, Rotate, 3D axis rotation, and Demeter-bot
enabled terrain being enabled in Alphaworld will be that very little trouble
will rear its head at those organizations and to AWI.

Thirdly, I want to make sure you are aware of a possible fix to the
Demeter-bot enabled terrain encroachment problem. It could possibly be fixed
by simply fixing the encroachment boundries on Demeter's terrain.rwx object.
If you recall, you had similar issues with Alphaworld's X Objects
encroaching until they were "fixed". As I'm sure you are aware, the
terrain.rwx contains the properties for that cell's terrain. Brant must
verify that this is a solution to the problem, and I have telegrammed him to
see if it is. I am currently awaiting a response. The bottom line is that
the Demeter system would keep the classic look of Active Worlds in
historical areas and create an entirely new set of creative challenges for
those builders wanting to use terrain. Demeter is a win-win for everyone.

Now, I do realize that you are having problems running the mapper utility
and may have problems backing up Alphaworld in the future. Adding this
extra data to all of the pre-existing objects would certainly speed up the
process. I respectfully request some more information on your backup
processes. Memory storage capacities are growing exponentially. It seems
to me that with hard drives currently up from 120 gigabytes seven months ago
to 250+ gigabytes today, that backups would not be a problem once the price
of such drives comes down. And therefore, the issue of AW becoming
unmanagable would be moot. But as I said, I'm not familiar with your backup
practices to know any better.

The last thing I want to say to you, Mr. Noll, is that enabling any of these
features for us to use in Alphaworld will foster the creativity of its
builders and encourage others, possibly even those who currently to not use
Active Worlds, to build there as well. The community (not the just the
vocal one) can only benefit. I am a firm believer that all sides must be
heard, and if you are seriously considering the question of enabling these
features, I am sure that Active Worlds Inc will consider all sides and
answer the question in a way that is fair to everyone. Thank you for taking
the time to read this very long letter, and thank you for hearing us out.

Sincerely,
Christopher Walker

SW Chris





[View Quote]

Feb 13, 2003, 4:57am

E N Z O ....

I emailed you twice in the last two weeks about volunteering my time to
create some new generic usable objects for Alpha world.

eg... beams of various sizes, rounded (pp16) objects, maybe some cars?

You did not reply.

Regards, Justin


[View Quote]

Feb 13, 2003, 6:52am

I'll respond, in thread, and add my .02. Who knows, it might actually be
worth something.

[View Quote] All points above this are quite valid. Backwards compatibility, and
maintaining a classic look, are quite reasonable goals for the largest and
original world in the AW universe.

> If the database grows to a size that is impossible to back up (it is
already
> to large to run mapper) ... it affects EVERYONE

The database is being clogged, almost since day 1, by building practices
that violate your own stated building guidelines. MASSIVE amounts of ground
cover. Even if some of the builders were building beyond ground cover, there
are some prolific builders that have massive amounts of land covered.
Tourists that have done the same as the above. I won't even approach the
subjective, the half completed builds, the vandalism, and the graffiti,
where judgements have to be made about whether to delete or save. It seems
that AW policy has been it's easier to buy more storage capacity, than to
adequately manage and supervise building rights in AW. If the purpose has
been to allow anarchy, and free expression at all costs in AW world, you
eventually will hit that brick wall, ENZO. I normally try not to criticize
without coming up with a solution. I see where this 800 pound gorilla can
pretty much sit wherever it pleases though. I see where in NewAW, you are
working on a more reasonable land management system. Good luck - I guess
that's why you get paid the big bucks - :)

> Try to put a tad more thought into this discussion if you want it to be
> productive?
>
No offense meant, but AWs management, policies towards tourists, pricing
schemes, etc. have shown less than a cogent, coherent thought process at
times also. I currently log into the AW universe and build with a loaner
account, from a generous friend. I wouldn't pay the fee necessary to remain
in the AW universe as a citizen, let alone a world owner - not with the
precarious financial situation AW seems to be in currently. Citizens and
world owners are leaving in droves, ENZO. The cavalier atitude expressed in
this post towards a paying customer just don't get it. All the ideas
expressed in here aren't going to be winners, but I honestly believe Bowen
was sincere in what he posted.

I love AW - I have ever since I first saw the program. I hope somebody,
somewhere, figures out how to come up with a reasonable, rational business
model for your company, before it folds. Again - good luck.

Feb 13, 2003, 3:33pm

Hi linn,

1. Crashing on Tport... what version? Is this a beta bug?

2. Can you specify what avs can't use seqs?

3. Currently I can block telegrams from specific people... is this not
working or am I not understanding

4. Good idea, maybe a 3.5 feature?

5. Probably a function of the OS

6. Not sure I understand

7. Hmmm, are you talking about a browser that has a slow connection? Or is
this in Alpha? Does the object ever appear?

8. Not sure I understand this one either... get stuck in start?

If you are running a beta version some of these might be bugs that need to
be reported and addressed, if you are not in the beta please email
support at activeworlds.com with details (system, OS, connection, version of
AW, specific places the event happens, is it reproducable, etc.)


Thanks,

E



[View Quote]

Feb 13, 2003, 3:38pm

3.4 will allow "tourist building" to be turned off. We are considering what
this will mean for Alpha.

E


[View Quote]

Feb 13, 2003, 4:07pm

LOL,

BTW Bowen if I was insulting to you as some commented, I apologize it was
not my intention


[View Quote]

Feb 13, 2003, 4:16pm

[View Quote] Where? Wha'?

--Bowen--

Feb 13, 2003, 4:37pm

huh?

:P

[View Quote]

Feb 13, 2003, 4:57pm

[View Quote] Yeah, about my free cit extension... ;)

--Bowen--

Feb 13, 2003, 5:46pm

1. Crashing on Tport... what version? Is this a beta bug?>>>version 3.3
build 419

2. Can you specify what avs can't use seqs? >>>> most any av in any world at
times has this problem

3. Currently I can block telegrams from specific people... is this not
working or am I not understanding>>> I went to aw and found 7 of my contacts
blocked from my grams we emailed each other and they found the same thing
we re entered and it was then ok not sure why that happened but if you
don't have the email ppl just think you are not talking to them

4. Good idea, maybe a 3.5 feature?

5. Probably a function of the OS

6. Not sure I understand>>> when someone send a url and I click it within aw
the browser crashes most of the time

7. Hmmm, are you talking about a browser that has a slow connection? Or is
this in Alpha? Does the object ever appear?>>>> we thought it was our
server or our connections but then after checking in other worlds found the
same problem yes it does appear but takes sometimes 10 minutes

8. Not sure I understand this one either... get stuck in start?>>>> the lil
download box that shows the unpacking? it sets in "start" and does nothing
at times this is several different worlds too

thanks for listening :-)




[View Quote]

Feb 13, 2003, 7:14pm

Hi Linn sorry you are having so many problems. Without the details of your
PC ad operating environment I can't do anything to troubleshoot this. I am
forwarding this to support to let them know these problems exist. You should
probably send a copy yourself along with your specs.

E


[View Quote]

Feb 13, 2003, 7:57pm

thanks :-)


[View Quote]

Feb 13, 2003, 8:32pm

SW Chris already mentioned some pretty good arguments, but here goes anyhow.

No matter what you do, there are people who like having ________ changed,
and those who don't. I myself loved it when AW had the periodic "night
modes," because I find that nighttime settings look pretty cool. That big
brown mountain backdrop in AlphaWorld can just get, well, dull after being
on 24/7 for more than 3 years straight. I've been a citizen for 4 years (and
about 5 days today), with 3 of those years being centered in alphaworld
itself. That aside, I've found that most of the people *I* know are FOR
changes in AW. Theres a few differences in the changes that could be done to
AW and those you outlined in your post.

Firstly, yes changing the look of AW does affect everyone, (any world
settings change does really), and some will like it and some will not.
However I don't really understand how a simple background change, or change
to much better-looking skyboxes, could really make too many people angry (I
personally just want to see something else besides those same brown
mountains all the time).

Your second example, turning on the fog with 1m vis......well..... why would
you do that? I think most people would be very angry at that move (of
course, some probably wouldn't). After all, AlphaWorld is a building world,
and you can't build if you can only see 1 meter in front of you. That is
just, well, dumb.

Yes, there are problems with move and rotate commands, but aren't the
encroachment problems being fixed in 3.4 anyways? But until then, like Chris
said, AWTeen hasn't had many problems with move/rotate related vandalism.
Besides, there IS the GET team, and the last time I checked their JOB was to
delete vandalism in AW. The benefits outweigh the problems, though. Firstly,
smart builders cover their land, and all one has to do is just cover a
little more land to push move/rotate vandalism out of their visibility (if
theres an object that moves into someone's house at 80m, vis can be set to
70m). And in instances where covering more land isn't possible (like towns),
then the GET can be brought in and with a few mouse clicks the object is
deleted. But with move and rotate, we can create more and do more with AW
than without the commands. I personally have seen VERY creative uses of move
and rotate in AW to create interactive builds like games that don't need a
bot to be played.

I understand the problem of data storage, however. But you say that its
getting hard to store and back up the database? Was AW's cell data limit
always set to Normal, and has Normal always been the same amount of data? If
so, then wouldn't you all known how large the database could become at the
very beginning, and planned accordingly? I've never actually ran a server
like those required for Active Worlds-related applications, but it just
seems like something that could be planned for.

Most importantly, AlphaWorld is a good world for people to see. Tourists
should be allowed in, because many buildings are in AlphaWorld and so they
can see what can be made in Active Worlds, and not just view it as a 3d chat
room called "AWGate." And AlphaWorld does need to be given the new commands,
during the period of time where all the infamous move/rotate exploits were
found, I made some builds that I thought were really cool due to what I
could do with the move and rotate commands (working clocks is one example
that comes to mind).

Bottom line? I beleive most of AlphaWorld's community today is in favor of
having the features like 3-axis rotation and the move/rotate commands be
allowed.
-Captain MAD Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "e n z o" <enzo at activeworlds.com>
Newsgroups: community
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: question? (deserves another)


> If we turn off the panorama a effectively change the entire look and feel
of
> Alpha, it affects EVERYONE
>
> If we turn on fog and limit vis to 1 meter, it affects EVERYONE
>
> If we replace the panorama with clouds that move... it affects EVERYONE
>
> If I don't use create move but you do and your house sneaks up on me ...
it
> affects EVERYONE
>
> If the database grows to a size that is impossible to back up (it is
already
> to large to run mapper) ... it affects EVERYONE
>
>
> Try to put a tad more thought into this discussion if you want it to be
> productive?
>
>
> E
>
>
[View Quote]

Feb 14, 2003, 12:40am

I would agree with the tourism issue, but only if tourists don't have
building rights in that world. That way they can see what they could do
with a paid citizenship. However, this isn't a discussion for tourism. It
is a discussion for features. I'll leave that statement as ambiguous as
possible because I am not sure what I feel about bringing tourists into the
equation at this state of... for lack of a better term.. negotiations.

SW Chris

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Feb 14, 2003, 12:45am

All I have to say on this is a resounding ^_^ YAY! I'm glad you're
considering what it will mean.

SW Chris

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Feb 14, 2003, 12:49am

I have had similar problems regarding #2 of SEQS locking up. This happens
randomly to me it seems, and only started after 3.3 was released. What
build of 3.3 I do not know. I cannot pin down why or when it happens, but
I'll be sure to pay more attention in the future. Flushing the cache fixes
this problem.

OS: Windows ME
Video Card: Nvidia GeForce Ti4200
RAM: 256MB
Processor: AMD Athlon 1800+

Anything I left out?

Chris


[View Quote]

Feb 14, 2003, 1:02am

Hmm... the COMMUNITY is a double-edged sword. And it as a word gets thrown
around a lot. Catch it wrong and it'll cut you. But look at the word in
the right way and you won't get hurt. You're aware of this of course. The
vocal minority often claims it is speaking for the community.

But I don't think adopting a pure nonprogressive policy on Alphaworld is a
way to combat this. Nobody benefits, because soon you get people
complaining that there aren't enough new features being used in Alphaworld.
Put these things to popular vote, then make decisions based on the results
of that vote, and what AWI is able to do and is limited by. I am not
talking about encroachment issues. That can be handled by the Peacekeepers
and GET if they are willing. They have to be willing, however. Popular
vote is simply the most obvious and fair way to do this sort of thing, in my
humble opinion. It guarantees that your company finds out what its users
want, not what the vocal minority wants, and then AWI can act accordingly.

Respectfully submitted,
SW Chris
This sounds like another Talking Points memo...
chrisw10 at skywalkeronline.net


[View Quote]

Feb 14, 2003, 3:07am

i agree on the blocking of telegrams i come of this across many times

we think nothng of it just an inconviniant at times


"sw chris" <chrisw10 at skywalkeronline.net> schreef in bericht
news:3e4c5944 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> I have had similar problems regarding #2 of SEQS locking up. This happens
> randomly to me it seems, and only started after 3.3 was released. What
> build of 3.3 I do not know. I cannot pin down why or when it happens, but
> I'll be sure to pay more attention in the future. Flushing the cache
fixes
> this problem.
>
> OS: Windows ME
> Video Card: Nvidia GeForce Ti4200
> RAM: 256MB
> Processor: AMD Athlon 1800+
>
> Anything I left out?
>
> Chris
>
>
[View Quote]

Feb 18, 2003, 10:51am

I've been a citizen now for about 3 years. I am an artist in real life and I
don't mean computer generated art. I've found enjoyment in building in 3D.
Mostly because I think, it allowed me to be creative in a way I can't
illustrate on paper. I could actually walk or fly around inside my builds. I
could get closer to those objects and on occasion put my "face" up against
them to look at them close up and enjoy the realistic quality of the
textures. I could manipulate walls and panels to make my sculptures look
like nothing anybody has ever seen before. The recent addition of light
effects and color hues, not to mention what is possible with some texture
commands, give more interest in building and sculpting unique structures.
However, I too have felt the limitations of what I can do. Lately I haven't
had the ambition to build cus I've run out of ideas. You can only look at so
many houses or buildings before you get tired of seeing them. I live in a
city. I don't want to visit 3D buildings online. Sure its nice landscaping,
but with the selections we have, there isn't much to use. I'll admit, I
don't know much about Demeter terrain.rwx or bots. But I do have a couple of
ideas that might work to improve things a bit for "everyone". Why all this
talk about Demeter???? Why can't we simply add some larger hills and
possibly a mountain or two to the object list??? I've seen them. I know they
exist. They don't take up THAT much space. Currently the largest object
available is the hot air balloon. That's ok for some hills, but try to build
with that stupid basket sometime. It gets annoying. Or perhaps maybe a huge
sphere object???? Recently I was fortunate to have the opportunity to build
in The Beans which has object rotation. What a joy!!!! I had sooooooooo much
fun with using that command. I found that my creativity was vastly
increased. I felt like I had no limits to my imagination. Will that command
really negatively impact all of the citizens in AW??? I can't imagine how.
It will not improve the interest of the building community again but think
what that will mean to the business end of AW. When people hear that
rotation command is available they will reconsider renewing their expired
citizenships, and perhaps invite their friends to register. AW would no
longer be boring or have to compete with NewAW, There or Peace City. There
would be more support in the community and people would be more willing to
compromise on their needs/wants. We wouldn't need all the objects we
currently have if rotate command was utilized. We could get rid of most of
the slanted stuff cus we would be able to create our own angles. For
example, one particular size boulder is currently available in two
positions: vertical and horizontal. And another example: the quarter piece
of that small hill. We wouldn't need 4 choices anymore. We could get rid of
one or more of those positions. They would be obsolete. Wouldn't that free
up some space on the back up??? You don't have to delete it completely. That
would wipe out a lot of the older builds I know. But perhaps just not offer
it anymore to the building public. Like I stated earlier I don't know much
about the technical things of building. I would appreciate not getting
flamed on this, but would like to know what kind of negative impact those
two suggestions would have on the community. Just a simple builder with some
ideas but open to explanations. ;-")


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