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Jun 6, 2001, 10:22pm

Very good, Chuck. You can quote the Content Guidelines, now let's apply it to this
situation, shall we?

"We reserve the right to suspend or remove..." This means that, by agreeing to these
guidelines you are allowing them to remove the offending material. This does NOT mean
that it is their JOB to remove the material. It simply means that they possess the
ability to remove it, not necessarily the obligation to do so.

"...which is brought to our attention..." As Facter has said, he was never notified
of the offending material until *after* it was removed. It's rather hard to remove
something that you've never been told about...

"...and which we find, in our sole discretion, violates any of these content
guildelines..." This means that AWCom decides what does and does not get removed, not
you, not Marcus, and not anyone else. It is ONLY up to AWCom what they think should
be removed. If they review your case and choose not to do anything about it, well
then, tough noogies. They didn't feel it was an issue worthy of further
investigation, end of story. Any amount of complaining about it will only get you
flamed, since you supposedly agreed to all these terms when you became a cit.

Note: That last part is not directly referencing the porn incident, it merely speaks
about bringing up complaints with AWCom in general.

[View Quote] --
Goober King
As a certain newsgroup traveler once put it, "THINK!"
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 6, 2001, 10:26pm

hehe... felt that this place needed a change of pace every now and then. Y'know, to
keep things *interesting*... ;)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Even my threshold for stupidity has it's limits...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 7, 2001, 10:19am

You'd better read that again, chief. You seem to be real big on putting words in
other people's mouths. The key words in that definition are "intended to cause sexual
excitement". If it doesn't cause sexual excitement in a good portion of the
population, then it can't be pornography. If you saw a picture of a naked, fat chick
(or guy, in your case) sitting on a chair, would that incite any sexual arousal on
your part? If so, then you'd be in the minority. It's stops being art when it becomes
*erotic*. It's not pornography just because the person in the picture is naked.

Remember that scene in Schindler's List where all the old men were standing in the
mud naked while being inspected by the Nazis? If you consider that pornography, then
you are just twisted, my friend.

[View Quote] --
Goober King
I ask again, is that Reading Comprehension class still open, Eep?
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 6, 2001, 1:01am

Hey all, just wanted to take a break from all the flaming and bickering to do a
little advertising :)

The ActiveWorlds University is going to be offering a new series of courses soon
entitled "Community Building". These courses are meant to teach people what goes in
to creating a successful community and how they can "get in on the action", so to
speak. But before we can offer these courses, we need people to teach them! So if you
think you know all there is to know about the following topics, please email me at
gooberking at utn.cjb.net and we can talk more about it in person! Remember, we need
*experienced* people who know a *lot* about these topics, so only serious responses
will be regarded.

Starting a Town - This course will teach students everything there is to know in
creating and managing a town. Subjects will include GZ/Entrance Design, Lot Layout,
Theme Design, and Residential Planning

Owning & Managing a World - This course will cover all aspects of setting up a world,
including Configuring the World Server, Setting up an Object Path, Creating a
registry, and finding Hosting for your world

Building a GZ - This course demonstrates many of the tips and tricks for creating an
efficient and informative "Ground Zero" for your town or world, while also
demonstrating some of the more aesthetic aspects of GZ design.

Starting an Organization - This course will go through what is necessary for the
creation of an organization in AW, as well as demonstrating methods for keeping the
org an active player in the AW community.

Advertising - This course will go through all the advertising resources currently
available in the AW community, as well as teaching methods for effective advertising.

Event Coordination - This course goes through all the steps involved in setting up a
successful event, including Setting and Theme issues, and the resources that are
available to help make your event succeed.

If you think you'd like to teach a course that's not listed here, but would still be
related to the topic of "Building an Successful Community", email me at the address
above and we'll see if we can't add it to the list! With your help, we can make the
community a better place by helping others help themselves! :)

--
Goober King
AWUniversity Community Building Coordinator
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 6, 2001, 11:50am

Considering the nature of some of the people in this newsgroup, I felt this was
appropriate. *smirk*

-----
There once was a happy little fly buzzing around the barn one day when
she happened upon a large pile of fresh cow manure. Since it had been
hours since her last meal and she was feeling hunger pangs, she flew
down to the irresistible delicacy and began to munch out.

She ate...and ate...and then .. she ate some more!!!

Finally, she decided she had enough. She washed her face with her tiny
front legs, belched a few times, then attempted to fly away.

But, alas...she had pigged out far too much and could not get off the
ground. She looked around wondering what to do about this unpleasant
situation when she spotted a pitchfork leaning upright against the
barn wall.

She'd found a solution!! She realized if she could just become airborne
she'd be able to fly again. So, she painstakingly climbed to the top of
the handle. Once there, she leapt confidently into the air.

She dropped like a rock...and splattered all over the floor.

Dead Fly....

And the moral of this sad story?

Never fly off the handle when you know you're full of shit.

--
Goober King
Notes that probably the only negative replies will be from the ones this is directed
at...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 6, 2001, 2:07pm

Umm... did you bother to follow the link that Eep posted? It's all right there in
plain text...

[View Quote] --
Goober King
You show it to them, and they still don't get it...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 6, 2001, 7:21pm

I will agree that the charter is pretty vague as to what determines what is "related
to AW". Unfortunately, it's the only one we have at the moment...

Or is it? Here's an idea... why don't we make this a truly self-governing newsgroup?
Since there is no one specifically moderating this forum, (Facter hasn't the will to
do it, and Eep has no power) perhaps we, as a group of users should pen up our own
charter and all agree to abide by it. And, any changes that people feel should be
made to the charter can be put to a vote. (Just like how the original charter was
supposed to work, but never did) I'm sure Tony M would be glad to repost the new
charter every so often to remind everyone of the rules that we, as a community, all
agreed to follow.

Of course, the only problem with this scenario is how to enforce the rules we decide
on? Since the only one here who has any power to remove posts (Facter) doesn't want
to be moderator of this group, we would either have to find some other form of
"punishment" or get someone else from within AWCom to moderate. Perhaps putting in a
"if you break any of these rules, all other community members are free to flame you
until you learn." clause? :)

Thoughts? If enough people are hip to this idea, I might write up a rough draft for
you guys to tweak. :)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Taking matters into your own hands...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 6, 2001, 8:16pm

Umm... ok, not sure how that was relevant... anyone *else* care to share their
thoughts? Preferably about the idea of a new charter?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
It's too hot to freeze...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 8, 2001, 1:00am

In light of the new General NG that's being created, this is all pretty much moot at
this point. Still, the charter I was planning on drafting would have maintained
everyone's freedom of speech, and even allow for the occasional off-topic posts.
(sorry, Eep :P) And allowing people to offer corrections and suggestions would have
ensured that everyone would be satisfied (though not necessarily outright happy) with
the results.

But, as I said, once the General NG opens up, all the BS that's been clogging this NG
will simply dry up :)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Well, at least we *hope* they'll dry up!
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 8, 2001, 1:03am

If we follow that logic, then we should also ban M a r c u s, Chucks Party, Wing, and
even you. Somehow, I doubt you'd want your precious NG rights taken away, so I
wouldn't go giving AWCom any ideas.

And besides, they've already tried banning Eep once before. Didn't exactly work out
as well as they had hoped *snicker*

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Still clinging to Just In like a wet t-shirt, eh?
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 6, 2001, 10:41pm

All I can say is, woo Flagg! It's about time this place got a "bs" NG! (I need a
place to play :)) But does that mean you're going to be moderating the community NG
from now on?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Leave it to AWCom to step in and stop stupidity dead in its tracks!
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 7, 2001, 7:13pm

Did it ever occur to you, Marcus, that the person who put the porn in AW in the first
place is one of these "kids" you are so desperate to protect? In the vast majority of
porn cases, it's put up by some horny adolescent teenager who thinks it'd be funny to
put up naked people all over the place. It's not as if it's put up by some 40 yr old
pervert who doesn't leave the house. And in all of the other cases, (such as this
one) it's more art than it is porn, and nothing happens to it.
So perhaps you need to learn more about these situations before you climb up on you
soapbox to defend all those "helpless kids".

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Common sense... level... falling...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 8, 2001, 12:47am

Let's put it this way:

You are sitting in a restaurant and chatting with someone about an article they wrote
in the local newspaper. Now let's say, for some twisted reason, you decide to record
this conversation on a pocket recording device. You then go to a local radio station
and have them broadcast the conversation, in full, to the entire town.

The restaurant is a public place, no one is disallowed from entering. People could
have easily overheard your conversation if they were bothering to pay attention. Does
that mean that you have the right to broadcast this conversation to people who have
no business hearing it in the first place? I think not.

You don't do that sort of thing in the real world, and you don't do that sort of
thing in AW either. It's called "common courtesy". Do you even have any?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Makes him wonder how much Marcus actually gets out and "interacts" with real
people...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 8, 2001, 12:52am

And I ask you to read my post. I wasn't referring to this specific situation, but to
the porn issue in general. And nowhere did I say "Because a kid put it up means we
shouldn't do anything about it" As I've said before, I do believe porn is an issue
that needs to be dealt with. However, we've heard your argument a million times
already and we got the point. Can you just drop it already?

And before you go saying "Then why do people reply to my posts?", it was *you* who
posted this conversation of yours without *any* provocation from us, so don't tell me
that *we* are the ones who need to drop it. As many people have suggested, if you
care so much about removing porn from AW, then let your actions speak for you and
join GET or the PKs. Only then will this become more than just talk. Only then will
you truly be making a difference.

[View Quote] --
Goober King
For actions speak louder than words, we agree...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 8, 2001, 10:35am

Sending chat logs to the PKs is one thing. That's just like handing your answering
machine messages over to the police when they have a warrant. That's fine because
they need that information for investigative purposes, and it's the law. (or, in AW's
case, in the Conduct Guidelines)

Posting a conversation here in this public forum that was only between two people
(with one other witness) for the sole purpose of continuing to stir the shit is
another matter entirely. That's just plain wrong. If that chat log had had any sort
of relevance to it, we probably wouldn't have come down so hard. But Flagg had
already given Marcus the response he was clamoring for; that should of been the end
of the story. But nooooo! Mr. Self-Righteous had to go and post a conversation, which
didn't shed any more light on the matter, (expect to throw the whole Gorean factor
into the mess and cloud the issue) and continue to drag this tirade out *far* longer
than necessary.

If Marcus wanted Flagg to read this conversation so badly, as the original post
header indicated, why didn't he just email it to him? I'll tell you why: Because he
doesn't care about porn, he doesn't care about "children", he certainly doesn't care
about Sassysha, nor does he care about us. The only thing he cares about, as far as I
can tell, is attention. And he's certainly received that, in spades.

Oh, and by the way, for any newbies in the crowd, *hint hint* the reason they post
logs of TechTalk is because it contains information that is useful to many other AW
citizens. TechTalk is a chance for AW citizens to find out what's going on in the
development of AW, and a chance for them to have their ideas and concerns heard. And
do you know *why* they are allowed to post these logs? Because they have Roland's
PERMISSION! (In fact, if I recall correctly it was his idea in the first place) Wow,
who'da thunk it?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Some people just can't take a hint
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 8, 2001, 10:48am

Ok, now you see that? THAT was the information we were looking for! Why you didn't
post this information sooner is beyond me, as it would have saved you a *whole* lot
of grief!

That being said, it sounds like you managed to find quite a few of the "bad apples"
in each of the groups you visited. Any teacher that says "Active Worlds won't do
anything about it" obviously is just as new to the system as you were. Guess we need
to put that into the training quiz, eh kellee? :)

As for everything else, we've already beaten those subjects into the ground. My only
question is, why, after receiving your answer from Tom, go and find the person who
had the "porn" up in the first place? What possible purpose could you have for
posting that conversation here in a public forum? It's certainly not an informative
post, as we already knew that the people involved didn't consider it porn, and that
the account was removed from the server. So what new information could this
conversation possibly bring to the table?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
And why didn't you post this info before?!
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 8, 2001, 10:55am

Ok, that's great. You managed to get the account removed from the server. Now what?
For some reason, you seem to be fixated with this one incident. I haven't seen any
other posts saying "More porn in AW" or something like that. If you did something
like that, perhaps your "cause" would have a little more validity. But instead, you
choose to drag out this one specific incident and seem to think that somehow makes
you a champion of porn removal.

And as I've said before, if you don't like the system, go out there and *do*
something to change it. Sitting here in the NGs and complaining all day *isn't* going
to change anything, in case you haven't noticed. If you don't like the way GET or the
PKs are run, then get in on the action and maybe you can affect change on the inside.
It's one thing to complain about the system; anyone can do that. It's another thing
entirely to actually try to change the system. Which one are you?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Beat the system!
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 22, 2001, 10:49pm

I'll take you up on your question, Facter. I wracked my brain long and hard for this
list, and here's what I came up with:

1)Roland - for TechTalk and all the developments he's made over the years (DirectX
support, etc)
2)Facter - for a willingness to listen to customer concerns and help with technical
issues whenever possible
3)Flagg - for WildAW and assistance in events and contests (prize donations, etc)
4)HamFon - for wonderful bots and extremely helpful assistance
5)Mountain Myst - for her desire to help the community prosper and flourish

Sad to say, the list doesn't get much longer than that. Most of the other things that
I like about AW and its community have been brought about by the USERS, not the
company. (i.e. Cy Awards, AWCommunity.org, etc) And until the *real* powers-that-be
of AWCom (Rick & JP) actually start taking greater stock in OUR concerns, the people
who actually USE their product on a daily basis, I'm afraid people (at least here in
the NGs) aren't going to have much else to answer your query with...

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Definitely thinks Moria's idea is a good start...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 27, 2001, 12:54am

There *is* a reason AWNews.com exists, you know... so people can *read* it! *hint
hint*

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Shouldn't be too hard to find... www.awnews.com in case you forgot :P
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 27, 2001, 7:19pm

Except for this story, eh? You seem pretty anxious to keep it under wraps even though
Gand AND Flagg AND Stacee have been talking about this project openly since last
December! Maybe you need to improve your communication skills between all AWCom
employees so everyone knows what's supposed to stay secret and what's not. :P

Oh, and btw, you might as well give up trying to cover up this one, as you're cover's
already been well blown by Moff Piett, hence my AWNews.com reference *grin*

[View Quote] --
Goober King
And Facter wonders why we think there's a vast AWCom conspiracy! :P
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 28, 2001, 2:26pm

I don't think anyone was suggesting that it would be coming out within a matter of
days. In fact, neither here in this NG, nor in the AWNews article, does anyone make
any mention of a release date; only that it is "uncertain". Not sure where you got
the idea that we thought it was coming out in a month...

And in case you were wondering, the reason we speculate is because when it *does*
come out, we want to know if it'll be the same as it is in it's current state.
Perhaps a trip to Psychology 101 is in order?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Or maybe Facter just needs a healthy dose of reality...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 29, 2001, 12:35am

Let me explain something to you, Facter. Maybe then you'll understand what you're
dealing with here, since you suddenly seem to have forgotten.

We, as a community, have had to put up with all manner of lies, broken promises, and
blatant ambivalence from COF for YEARS! We've had to deal with YEARS of watching our
ideas and concerns get consistently IGNORED! We've had to deal with YEARS of watching
Rick & JP RENEGE on previous promises! We've had to put up with YEARS of community
NEGLECT, where some of COF's most prized possessions now lay in ruins, a mere shadow
of their former glory! While a few of us have been rather vocal about all this, the
majority of users simply see this neglect and turn right around and walk out, only to
be replaced by another sucker, thereby keeping COF's checkbook balanced.

Now suddenly you come along. You say you're here to provide us with a voice. You say
you're here to listen to our concerns. Not only that, but that you're doing on your
own time and of your own volition! What do you want, a cookie? This is what SHOULD
have been happening years ago! Just because you, Facter, (not to be confused with
AWCom) happen to be paying attention to what's going on here doesn't somehow make all
of those years of neglect, arrogance, and apathy go away. You can put all the similey
faces you want on it, throw out all the "coming soon!"s and "in the works!" all you
want, and keep telling everyone their concerns *are* being heard. But until we start
seeing RESULTS, until we start seeing our concerns being put into action, then all
your words mean SQUAT!

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what you're trying to do. But it's too little, too
late. After all, what good is it if you're passing on our concerns to the Big Boys,
only to have them ignore YOU too? Don't believe me? Just take a look at those "juicy"
tidbits about 3.2. Notice how many times the word "corporate" appears in that little
page. Now, you tell me where their true interest lies. Yes, OpenGL and NT support are
good things to have, and that's not my complaint. My complaint is with their
intentions. Why can't they also throw in a couple user-suggested features, features
that have been suggested for YEARS by MULTIPLE people, along with all those corporate
ones?

I'll tell you why: Because our concerns are not their concerns. To them, we're just
another $20, something to fall back on in case one of their big contracts falls
through. Think differently? Fine, then show us PROOF! Show us that our concerns are
actually being addressed AND being carried out! Otherwise, you're nothing but hot
air.

So pass this little message onto good ol' Rick & JP at that next staff meeting: Start
listening to us, you're so-called "valued" customers, or we'll stop listening to
you...

[View Quote] --
Goober King
The time for talk is over. Now is a time of ACTION!
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 29, 2001, 10:26am

Boycotts would be nice, if they actually worked. The problem is, even if we took down
all our sites and all our worlds and didn't go to any of the events, I don't think
Rick or JP would even blink. Why should they? They had nothing to do with these sites
or worlds or events to begin with. If we were to boycott that way, it'd be just like
putting sanctions on Cuba: We'd be hurting the people, but not the people in charge.
:P

The only real boycott that would have any effect would be a boycott in the wallet
department. That means *not* renewing citizenships, *not* renewing worlds, and
telling tourists to *not* sign up until changes are made. And we would need to have
quite a lot of people involved for AWCI to notice; can't just be a few prominent
citizens.

Hey, I'll do it if I know that everyone else involved is committed to doing it. So
who's up for it?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
And so it begins...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 29, 2001, 7:21pm

Perhaps you missed the point of my little rant there. I was not questioning YOUR
contributions. I've said it many times before: I DO appreciate what you're trying to
do, I really do. I'm glad that at least *someone* is taking the time to listen to us
piss and moan about this and that, and I'm glad that at least YOU are doing what you
can for us.

The problem I have is not with you. It's not with Roland, or Flagg, or even Lucrezia.
It's solely with the two people who are in the driver's seat and who are effectively
ignoring everyone around them, including you and the rest of the AWCom staff: Rick
and JP. Yes, you voice your concerns and opinions at board meetings, but exactly how
much stock do you think they have in your opinions? I would hazard to guess that they
don't think much higher of your opinions than they do ours. Look at it this way: If
they aren't even listening to their lead programmer, who I'd like to think is a
little higher up on the AWCI food chain than you are, what makes you think they'll
listen to you?

Now I'm not suggesting that you stop helping the community and go on strike or
something. (although that might be affective) But change needs to start happening,
from the top down. Otherwise this company will continue to flounder, until eventually
it just dies from exhaustion...

[View Quote] --
Goober King
It's a bit hard for your voice to be heard when it goes in one ear and out the
other...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 29, 2001, 7:25pm

[View Quote] But if Rick and JP don't care about community events and organizations to begin with,
why would they suddenly start caring if those orgs went away and people started
complaining about it? If ComReg or Info Squares or AWSchool were to close up and go
away, Rick or JP would just shrug and go back to signing their next contract. No loss
for them.

>
>
> I've BEEN doing it for years and have been waiting for others to join in. Looks like things might be getting momentum now...

Heh, if it makes you feel any better, I was a citizen in late 96, and my citship runs
out in 2002. And I've only paid for my citship twice in that amount of time. And I
have no idea where all this free time is coming from... Someone's been adding to my
citship without my knowledge... Any ideas, Fac?

--
Goober King
Not that I'm complaining about free cits...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 27, 2001, 11:46pm

Shucks, now Eep's going to have to find a new shadow... KAH? Shred? They sound like
they've been training well... ;)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Eep needs another shadow cause his old one ran away...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 30, 2001, 1:47pm

We don't hate AW. We don't hate the staff. What we hate is the way things are being
run by Rick & JP. And we bitch because we are still holding on to some slim shred of
hope that someone, somewhere, will hear our concerns and actually act upon them. It's
a long shot, I agree, but it's the only chance we've got...

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Would you rather we stand back and take this shit for 5 *more* years?
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 30, 2001, 8:09pm

I wholeheartedly agree, Ananas. There SHOULD be a better way to get our concerns and
ideas heard than simply ranting here in the NGs. And you know what? If such a way
existed, do you think I'd be pissing and moaning right now?

The FACT is, Ananas, there is no better way. As I pointed out to Facter, what good is
it if he passes on our concerns to Rick & JP, if they subsequently ignore HIM, just
like they ignore US? You want facts? Check out my latest column at AWNews.com, and
hear it straight from Roland's keyboard.

And as for concerns, I, personally, am not just interested in "fixing bugs". I want
them (and when I mean "them", I mean Rick, JP, and AW's focus) to start listening to
our ideas for *new* features, as well as enhancements to old ones. I want them to
start showing more support for independent (non-AWCI sponsored) events and
organizations. I want them to actually take an INTEREST in their so-called "valued"
customers. Is that really so much to ask?

I never said they were lazy. I'm sure they're *very* busy signing contracts, holding
meetings, and shaking hands. I never said they were ignorant, as I'm sure they're
perfectly aware of our issues; they just choose not to address them at all. As for
being criminal, I never claimed that either, but that's for a court to decide...

And for the record, I'm not spouting off for your personal entertainment. Injustice
and oppression are not *supposed* to be "fun", Ananas. If you don't like it, you can
go ahead and filter me for all I care. I don't know about you, but I've been putting
up with this crap for almost 5 years now, and Roland's "confession" was the last
straw. I, for one, am not going to put up with it any more.

You can plug your ears and close your eyes all you want, but the problem won't go
away unless *something* is done about it. *I* intend to find out what that something
is. Do you?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
He is here to erradicate injustice, something everyone else seems to have just gotten
used to...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jul 1, 2001, 2:11pm

Umm, Nornny, are you even paying attention? Where in my rant did I discuss newbies?
Nowhere! If anything, I'm ranting *for* the newbies. My complaint is with Rick & JP's
lack of concern for ANY citizen, both newbies and veterans alike.

Rick & JP may be trying to look for the "more stupid" customer, as Roland suggested,
but do you think they care what happens to that stupid customer once they get his
$20? I think not.

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Please, people, WAKE UP!
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jul 1, 2001, 7:12pm

Essentially, yes. As far as Rick & JP are concerned, us citizens are expendable as
there's always more where that came from. Big corporate contracts, however, don't
exactly grow on trees, so they are compelled to do everything they can to get them.
So much for business ethics. :P

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Today's tourist is tomorrow's citizen...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

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