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Jun 30, 2001, 4:18am

Why are you here?

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Jun 30, 2001, 10:32am

LOL

KAH

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Jun 30, 2001, 11:19am

I was expecting a rant to counter insanity's overnight rampage against AWCI's practices, but that was great ananas.
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Jun 30, 2001, 11:57am

I would say the same thing. The problem is that the people that complain a lot about AW, rather than just leave, want it to improve.

-Agent1

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Jun 30, 2001, 1:47pm

We don't hate AW. We don't hate the staff. What we hate is the way things are being
run by Rick & JP. And we bitch because we are still holding on to some slim shred of
hope that someone, somewhere, will hear our concerns and actually act upon them. It's
a long shot, I agree, but it's the only chance we've got...

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Would you rather we stand back and take this shit for 5 *more* years?
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 30, 2001, 2:43pm

I have no problems with ideas how things can be improved
and critics.

I have a problem if there are no facts, if the tone is not
like a in discussion and/or if technical and organisational
problems are handled as if they were done on purpose.

The company that hosts the universe might make mistakes,
all programs of a certain complexity usually have bugs
and some things could be done better, but they sure are
not lazy, ignorant or even criminals. The style of the
"discussions" went down a lot lately and it is not much
fun anymore to follow them, the quality got lost.

If this is really a community and if AWCI people are
accepted members of the community (at least those who take
part) there should be better ways to deal with problems than
just nagging and ranting.

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Jun 30, 2001, 8:09pm

I wholeheartedly agree, Ananas. There SHOULD be a better way to get our concerns and
ideas heard than simply ranting here in the NGs. And you know what? If such a way
existed, do you think I'd be pissing and moaning right now?

The FACT is, Ananas, there is no better way. As I pointed out to Facter, what good is
it if he passes on our concerns to Rick & JP, if they subsequently ignore HIM, just
like they ignore US? You want facts? Check out my latest column at AWNews.com, and
hear it straight from Roland's keyboard.

And as for concerns, I, personally, am not just interested in "fixing bugs". I want
them (and when I mean "them", I mean Rick, JP, and AW's focus) to start listening to
our ideas for *new* features, as well as enhancements to old ones. I want them to
start showing more support for independent (non-AWCI sponsored) events and
organizations. I want them to actually take an INTEREST in their so-called "valued"
customers. Is that really so much to ask?

I never said they were lazy. I'm sure they're *very* busy signing contracts, holding
meetings, and shaking hands. I never said they were ignorant, as I'm sure they're
perfectly aware of our issues; they just choose not to address them at all. As for
being criminal, I never claimed that either, but that's for a court to decide...

And for the record, I'm not spouting off for your personal entertainment. Injustice
and oppression are not *supposed* to be "fun", Ananas. If you don't like it, you can
go ahead and filter me for all I care. I don't know about you, but I've been putting
up with this crap for almost 5 years now, and Roland's "confession" was the last
straw. I, for one, am not going to put up with it any more.

You can plug your ears and close your eyes all you want, but the problem won't go
away unless *something* is done about it. *I* intend to find out what that something
is. Do you?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
He is here to erradicate injustice, something everyone else seems to have just gotten
used to...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jun 30, 2001, 8:52pm

[View Quote] > I wholeheartedly agree, Ananas. There SHOULD be a better way to get our concerns and
> ideas heard than simply ranting here in the NGs. And you know what? If such a way
> existed, do you think I'd be pissing and moaning right now?


If this is the best way, then we need to find a better one. If most of AWCI ignores the newsgroups, what does it matter to them if we rant in here or not?


> The FACT is, Ananas, there is no better way. As I pointed out to Facter, what good is
> it if he passes on our concerns to Rick & JP, if they subsequently ignore HIM, just
> like they ignore US? You want facts? Check out my latest column at AWNews.com, and
> hear it straight from Roland's keyboard.


Rick and JP are morons. All I have seen come from them is a bunch of hype and broken promises. Until they change, my opinion will not change.


> And as for concerns, I, personally, am not just interested in "fixing bugs". I want
> them (and when I mean "them", I mean Rick, JP, and AW's focus) to start listening to
> our ideas for *new* features, as well as enhancements to old ones. I want them to
> start showing more support for independent (non-AWCI sponsored) events and
> organizations. I want them to actually take an INTEREST in their so-called "valued"
> customers. Is that really so much to ask?


Until they get involved with their community or at least listen to their customers AW will continue to flounder.


> I never said they were lazy. I'm sure they're *very* busy signing contracts, holding
> meetings, and shaking hands. I never said they were ignorant, as I'm sure they're
> perfectly aware of our issues; they just choose not to address them at all. As for
> being criminal, I never claimed that either, but that's for a court to decide...

Yeah, they're busy, doing the wrong things...


> And for the record, I'm not spouting off for your personal entertainment. Injustice
> and oppression are not *supposed* to be "fun", Ananas. If you don't like it, you can
> go ahead and filter me for all I care. I don't know about you, but I've been putting
> up with this crap for almost 5 years now, and Roland's "confession" was the last
> straw. I, for one, am not going to put up with it any more.

I've been here for three years, and I've had it up to my ears with their BS.


> You can plug your ears and close your eyes all you want, but the problem won't go
> away unless *something* is done about it. *I* intend to find out what that something
> is. Do you?

Jun 30, 2001, 9:14pm

Ever think your gripes here do a lot more than just get ignored by JP and Rick? Post them on a web site as well, maybe Yahoo message boards. That all helps
get the word out and the facts about AW's heads ignoring facts. Then the stock will plummet some more. At some point the stock holders may then demand new
Directors who do give a shi^$&^$. That is if anyone really owns the stock other than the directors and the original investor who gave them the $$ to start the
IPO. AW has been in a death slump because of the directors. No big boys out there care for the stock because the plan of the current directors is to charge
the small users. That turns into a failed plan on a free www. Investors realize that never will there be millions who pay $20 to use. Had yahoo charged to
search, they would have remained as small as AW is. Allow free use, get hit counts soaring, then sell ad space and become a real network... then just like
NBC, CNN, etc., etc., The real networks will buy it up for the exposure it has raised... happened for the now msnbc , yahoo, etc., etc. Go for greed, fail
in slop... Smart investors look at the directors and their visions... in this case... lack of visions other that grandeur... Just an opinion... we all
have them... some may be clearer than others *S*



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Jul 1, 2001, 11:27am

I dunno, the more I think about it, I've come to this inner realization...

I'll stay by AW until the cows come home, no matter what they turn into, so
long as it's 3D, you can build, and you can chat. If they make an "easier
interface," so what? We can just drive out the newbies by constant group
attacks on newbies. ;) And in general, nothing's really broken, AW could do
a LOT worse. There's no hope in stopping newbies, we'll just have to smarten
them up, now won't we? ;) Just go into Juno, and instead of accepting cyber
sex requests, tell everyone that the big men are ruining AW and your
computer will eventually break down because of AW's bad programming or
something. ;) Scare tactics. ;)

Nornny

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Jul 1, 2001, 12:06pm

Tuesday, June 5: "Activeworlds Appoints Bruce Judson to Board of
Directors"
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010605/nytu066.html

[View Quote] Builderz
Stuff-X - Bot & World Hosting Services
http://aw.stuff-x.com/
PGP Key ID: 0xAC0E7073 (for non-commercial use)

Jul 1, 2001, 2:11pm

Umm, Nornny, are you even paying attention? Where in my rant did I discuss newbies?
Nowhere! If anything, I'm ranting *for* the newbies. My complaint is with Rick & JP's
lack of concern for ANY citizen, both newbies and veterans alike.

Rick & JP may be trying to look for the "more stupid" customer, as Roland suggested,
but do you think they care what happens to that stupid customer once they get his
$20? I think not.

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Please, people, WAKE UP!
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jul 1, 2001, 2:37pm

no, I'm saying that the reason why AWCOM is being forced by companies to
make an easier interface is because the newbies are complaining that AW is
too hard to use and maneuver. Newbies can be anything from new BIG
corporations who sign a contract with AWCOM. Just smarten those guys up, and
the majority will fall with the experienced, not the new. ;)

Nornny

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Jul 1, 2001, 3:01pm

[View Quote] Except the sex-crazed Juno ones.

Jul 1, 2001, 3:12pm

*IDEA* Make a AWCom Haters newsgroup! Wait no...then we wont have the darn
NGs for another month or so....
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Jul 1, 2001, 5:33pm

So, in a nutshell, you're trying to say Rick and JP are playing PT Barnum.
There's always another sucker...

SW Chris

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Jul 1, 2001, 7:12pm

Essentially, yes. As far as Rick & JP are concerned, us citizens are expendable as
there's always more where that came from. Big corporate contracts, however, don't
exactly grow on trees, so they are compelled to do everything they can to get them.
So much for business ethics. :P

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Today's tourist is tomorrow's citizen...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jul 1, 2001, 7:18pm

Hate to break it to you, Nornny, but when corporations ask for features in the AW
browser, it's because they, the corporation, think that those features would be best
for their users. It's not as if they send an email to their users saying "Hey, we're
going to be getting a 3D program soon. What features would you like to see in it?"
It's the big corporations that make all the decisions, and until a corp comes along
that will pass on *its* users' concerns on to AW, then we're all shit out of luck.
And even if that did happen, that would mean that their concerns would be more
important than our concerns, people who've been here and used AW far longer than
anyone from the outside corp.

If you think about it, it's disturbing how well Rick & JP keep us locked down and
silenced like this. Almost as if they know what they're doing...

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Nah... that's too much of a stretch...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jul 1, 2001, 7:26pm

The NG sure is the right place for problems as long as
someone who can make decisions reads them, but what do
you think will be read, constructive critics or rants?

It' not the contents what I critisize but the style that
went down the hill, and not your style but the overall
style in this group. Especially the 2 threads above this
one, but some others that started lately too. From what
I heard from people in AW, world owners and citizens there
are some problems that really need to be solved, none of
them a technical one. But I think that voices will not be
heard if they ATTACK individuals.

One more reason to keep some niveau : the NG is not open
for tourists posts but it can be read by everyone, I'm
a little concerned about some other universes and galaxies
that went down in the past. A company that cannot show a
quite high number of "consuming" customers will not be
able to pull investors - and I really like AW and I would
not want to loose it, no better place to meet the friends
I met in the past year (I'm newbie #317278).
Every tourist is a potential citizen, think back, would
you have signed up if you would have read rants against
all tourists, about AW stealing money and other nonsense?
Tourists who read that must feel like unwanted persons or
potential victims. But several of my friends were tourists
when I first met them, and I was a tourist when I met
citizens the first time who are my friends now.
As much as AW universes need citizens they need tourists
who will be citizens sometimes (hopefully).

Oh, and about my entertainment, a good and interesting
discussion can be fun to read, that does not mean it has
to be funny.

And again, this is not against you in any way, sorry if you
had this impression.

Volker [Ananas]

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Jul 1, 2001, 7:46pm

[View Quote] *blink* Between the two of them they just might have a twenty-third of a brain.

Jul 1, 2001, 11:31pm

Once again, I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, the "constructive criticism"
route has been tried many times before, and met with little or no success. As people
such as Eep, Just In, and Agent1 have proven, if you want something done, you need to
dog them until it gets done.

Do I honestly think yelling and screaming here in the NGs will get our problems
solved? Of course not, otherwise I wouldn't even bother. The whole reason I'm doing
this is so that *other* people will wake up and realize what's going on, and
hopefully drive them to act on these injustices. After all, this cannot be a one-man
effort. If we're going to bring about change, then this has to be a communal effort,
not just a few rabble-rousers.

Honestly, I would love to be able to walk into AWGate and expound to everyone the
wonders and joys of AW. Unfortunately, with all of these things going on behind the
scenes, my conscience would not let me. And if tourists are reading this, all I can
say is "good". It will educate them and serve as a warning that this is what you'll
have to put up with if you ever decide to get involved in the AW Community. Would you
rather we continue to hide Rick & JP's apathy towards customers from these newcomers?
That would make you no better than they are. Just as the real world isn't always nice
and pretty, so too is the virtual world. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather
know the truth going in, than to have it abruptly come out of nowhere and ruin
everything we've worked so hard to build all these years.

So it essentially comes down to this: Do we simply turn a blind eye to any "negative"
event that occurs and simply don't talk about it, or do we do everything in our power
(such as it is) to right these wrongs so that they don't happen again? The decision
rests in each citizen's hands. I've made my decision. What's yours?

And I'm not attacking you either, Ananas. Just trying to show you where I'm coming
from :)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
The phrase "knowledge is power" was never more right...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jul 3, 2001, 3:09am

Well, maybe it will take some years to see it this way.

Currently I see the nice things and I am able to ignore
the things I like not so very much. Nothing bad happened
yet - well, browser crash very few times, but I survive
that.

The community sure is an important part of AW's success
but after all it is a company that has to make money.
The reason for some decisions might not be clear to see
for a citizen. They have bosses and they have people who
work (*g) and to me it looks like they have a better
contacts to us than many other bigger companies usually
seem to have, 2 people listening to wishes and reading
these NGs.

And it is OK to doubt decisions, and to attack them, but
I see that some rules have been broken. People want to be
taken serious, as customers, but they don't behave like
customers. There is no respect for the good work this
company does, 80% ranting, 50% of it very mean and unfair.

If you would own this company, would you listen? Well, I
would not, I'm old enough to stand for my decisions and if
they are doubted in a way like it happens here I would
stop listening after a while.
Filtering what's worth listening to would just be too much.
As company owners they have to have a different view, it's
business afterall, and it's more their business than ours.

Some things can be taken in our own hands, but there are
limits. Some things might change through citicens ideas,
some will sure never change. But the chance to be heard will
not become better if some people talk in street language and
call AW people gangsters. Several postings here would even
have been a good reason to go to the court - not that i
thought they would really do that but I think they could.

My conzept is different, at least in technical things I can
try to work arround some problems. Company politics is not
my playfield, I'll leave that to people who are more into it.
But I see things going wrong so I complain about it. Not AW
business things but AW community things that are related to
the AW business.

So much about my decision, I'll better stop before too many
of my words repeat ;)

Volker

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Jul 3, 2001, 10:42am

Actually, Ananas, I understand exactly where you're coming from. I used to think as
you do, happy to go about my daily AW business and just tune out all of the rantings
and ravings of other citizens, (Eep, et al) saying "Oh, that's just them. They're at
it again."

But when Roland actually told me, and everyone else there ar TechTalk, that he felt
he was being ignored, that completely changed my way of thinking. Now not only were
Rick & JP ignoring US, they were ignoring their employees as well! I don't know about
you, but that doesn't sound like good business practice to me...

And if I were to own the company, through some small miracle, I would make sure that
the channels of communication were WIDE open, so that dissension such as ours would
never have a need to arise in the first place. Because that's what it all comes down
to: lack of communication. As I told Facter, if we were made privy to what goes on
over there in Newburyport, and knew with absolute certainty that our concerns *were*
being heard, then I, for one, would be content and you'd never hear from me again.

But until that happens, I will continue to rant, rave, and spew crazy speculations
based on half-truths! Because that's all we have to go on at the moment, and there's
only two people who can change that, and they ain't talking!

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Communication is key...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jul 6, 2001, 5:04pm

What interests me in all of this is the total lack of gratitude... AW is a
fantastic program, the most diverse that I have come across on the web.
(I know because I am in AW all the time LOL)

OK I can see that AW is still in it infancy, I can see that in a few short
years AW will be even more exciting than it is now...

One of the things I find incredible about AW is the fun I have in OVERCOMING
it's limitations. I hate that I can't rotate objects vertically but I love
that I can ASK
for help, that it is not impossible, that there is someone always who will
help me.
Patience and persistence work wonders in AW...
(BTW, thanx for the stripes Ananas:)

I have never actually come across anything that is entirely impossible to do
thanx to
all those ppl who are willing helpers. There are things I would change about
AW but
overall I find the proggy great fun, easy to learn & use, and getting better
all the time.

3.1 had quite enough new features for the version, I'm still perfecting my
use of it.
Ok the tech's get used to the new features really quickly and then they want
more
but AW is for EVERYONE... LOL Haters - go build your own s/w or shut the
f__k up!
If you would show some gratitude you would be amazed at the help you would
get

Bad Bad Bodhi

[View Quote]

Jul 6, 2001, 5:54pm

[View Quote] > Rick & JP ignoring US, they were ignoring their employees as well! I don't
know about
> you, but that doesn't sound like good business practice to me...
>

The importent word here is "their" - It is "their"
right since it is "their" business and they are
"their" employees...

> And if I were to own the company, through some small miracle, I would make
sure that


Just DO it then tell them how they should run "their" affairs. You are
blowing
smoke up your own ass till you actually have EXPERIENCE to back up your
conclusions.

Bad Bad Bodhi

Jul 6, 2001, 7:10pm

I realize you're new around these parts, so I'll try and clear up the confusion...

You and I are talking about two entirely different things here. What you're talking
about is showing gratitude towards the AW Community at large for everything they do,
whether it's helping you with building problems, or helping you get the hang of a new
command. And frankly, I couldn't agree more. Sometimes the job of helper is a
thankless one, and yet they persevere. I commend them for that, as should everyone
else.

My complaint, however, has nothing to do with the AW Community whatsoever. My
complaint deals specifically with Rick & JP, the owners of AWCom, and how they have
consistently ignored our concerns and ideas since they bought the technology from
Worlds all those years ago. (And by "concerns and ideas", I don't just mean new
building commands :P) If they were truly interested in the AW community, don't you
think they would pay attention to what we try to tell them? They don't seem to think
so.

If you want me to show them gratitude for their "support", then they have to show
*us* gratitude as well for all *our* support (citizenships, worlds, etc) by listening
to our concerns. Is that really too much to ask?

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Thanks, though. It was starting to get quiet around here...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jul 6, 2001, 7:18pm

[View Quote] Wrong. Just because it's "their" business does not give them the right to blatantly
ignore their own employees. The practice borders on worker negligence, which you
could easily sue for. Hell, I'm willing to bet the only reason Roland and friends are
still around is because they haven't found a better offer... yet. Either that, or
they, unlike their "superiors", actually care about AW's existence and don't want to
see it collapse in their negligent hands...

> sure that
>
> Just DO it then tell them how they should run "their" affairs. You are
> blowing
> smoke up your own ass till you actually have EXPERIENCE to back up your
> conclusions.

I do have EXPERIENCE, as you so interestingly put it. It's called "common sense". You
want a successful business? You make sure the customers are happy. (Happy employees
wouldn't hurt either) Happy customers means more customers. More customers equals
more money. More money equals more ways to make the customer happy. And the cycle
continues.

There's a reason that they coined the phrase "The customer is always right." It's
because it's true.

--
Goober King
Goobers, on the other hand, are often quite wrong...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

Jul 6, 2001, 9:29pm

Understood and accepted (well ... of course I have to
but I do it willingly ;) , maybe I'll have to make the
experiences you made.

Seems to be fair as long as it does not hurt those from
the AW team who DO care.

About the small miracle : I had a wishing well model,
somewhere ...

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Jul 6, 2001, 11:13pm

Fundamentally I was never confused and no, in my mind we are not talking
about different things because I don't see the AW owners as separate from
the rest of the AW community accept in that they have certain rights that
are
inalienable to their chorography; though these rights are also intrinsic in
the
society.

I feel sure that you would balk at any suggestion that you be compelled to
hear
each and every opinion that every tom dick and goober had concerning your
business; no matter how seemingly important they thought it was that you
lend
your ear.

The right to decide who we are willing to listen to is pretty darn basic;
now,
you whine that certain ppl (AW owners) will not listen to you (or for that
matter
others of your elk,) fortunately they are perfectly within their rights not
to, how do
you think they can get on with the very important assignment of keeping
their
wonderful business rockin on?

A good business is good because ppl use it - not because proprietors waist
their
precious time listening to the selfish whinings of minorities. When your
concerns
become the concerns of the majority (and in this capitalist world that means
those
who have the money) you can be sure that they will be answered.

It sounds to me like your problem is more political nature given that you do
not
accept the basic structure of capitalism. Maybe you should run for office
and attempt
rather to make changes where change can work? Attempting to change basic
facts
of the system in the wrong arena will only bring about your own deep
frustration and
others contempt of you.



Bad Bad Bodhi


[View Quote]

Jul 7, 2001, 2:25am

[View Quote] The problem is, bodhi, that the AW Community *is* separate from the company, and it's
only been through efforts by people like Roland and Facter that we're starting to see
a change. AWSchool, AWEC, ComReg, and all the other organizations out there are run
by average citizens like you and me. The only involvement AWCI has in their affairs
is to give them worlds and webspace, and that's it.

> I feel sure that you would balk at any suggestion that you be compelled to
> hear
> each and every opinion that every tom dick and goober had concerning your
> business; no matter how seemingly important they thought it was that you
> lend
> your ear.

Actually, no I wouldn't balk at such an idea. And the corporate world does indeed
have such a facility to handle things like this. Know what they call it? "Public
Relations Department", also known as "Customer Service". All successful businesses
and organizations have a place where customers can go to air their grievances, offer
suggestions, and find information. These departments are ALSO responsible for making
sure that grievances are addressed so that they don't happen again, for making sure
that suggestions are relayed to the proper people and considered, and for making sure
that information is easily and readily available. Now, I don't know what sort of
capitalist system you live in, but where I come from, that's called "Good Business".
If you don't have such a department, or even one employee doing such, then you don't
last very long. Need proof? Take a look at AWCI's stock, or even their annual
reports. You call that good business? I think not.

> The right to decide who we are willing to listen to is pretty darn basic;
> now,
> you whine that certain ppl (AW owners) will not listen to you (or for that
> matter
> others of your elk,) fortunately they are perfectly within their rights not
> to, how do
> you think they can get on with the very important assignment of keeping
> their
> wonderful business rockin on?
>

I would like to think that keeping customers happy would go a long way towards
keeping their business rockin on, don't you? And, for the record, this isn't some
small minority I'm talking about here. It's not as if me and Eep got together one day
and said "Hey, let's start a riot in the NGs because Rick & JP won't answer our
emails!" Sorry, but this has been a constant and cumulative problem that has spanned
*years* and practically every single AW citizen who ever bothered to care enough
about this wonderful program to want it to succeed. Need proof? Try wading through
the wishlist NG sometime. It's chock-full of great ideas and suggestions, many of
them offered by *multiple* people. And the vast majority of those ideas have yet to
see the light of day. In fact, most of the ones that have been actually carried out
were those that were suggested by corporate sponsors, not the citizens.

> A good business is good because ppl use it - not because proprietors waist
> their
> precious time listening to the selfish whinings of minorities. When your
> concerns
> become the concerns of the majority (and in this capitalist world that means
> those
> who have the money) you can be sure that they will be answered.

And therein lies the fundamental problem. Do you know who the majority is? Do you
know who supplies AWCI with the majority of the income? I'll give you a hint: It's
not corporate sponsors. It's us, the citizenry of AW. We buy the citizenships. We buy
the worlds. We buy the CDs. Hell, we even buy the t-shirts. Need proof? Just look at
their annual reports. Now, using your logic, don't you think that entitles us to
having our opinions matter? I'd like to think so.

> It sounds to me like your problem is more political nature given that you do
> not
> accept the basic structure of capitalism. Maybe you should run for office
> and attempt
> rather to make changes where change can work? Attempting to change basic
> facts
> of the system in the wrong arena will only bring about your own deep
> frustration and
> others contempt of you.
>
> Bad Bad Bodhi
>
[View Quote] --
Goober King
Nothing like beating a capitalist at his own game :)
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

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