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Sep 13, 2002, 7:18pm

Yes, its perfectly ok to do what he does. Without him, the tunnel exploit
would have never been found.

-Joe

[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2002, 8:52pm

Nope. The proxy just told the browser what IP address the world server was
running under. Simple stuff, the world server didn't care who or what you
were, just as long as you could connect. Big deal? That's nothing big.

-Joe

[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2002, 8:57pm

I don t know what he is using but it appears on server side as a tourist
named "Sleepy E" using privilege of citizen 345404 and an aw browser build
version 397 .. his ip address was 217.215.50.243

We got that info when he entered our game world Mutation which is not
allowed to tourist.

is he worldhoping to see who is using an outdated worldserver?

Regards,
MilesTeg


"ananas" <vha at oct31.de> a écrit dans le message de news:
3D8244AF.72E323F5 at oct31.de...
> From what he told me he isn't using a patched or otherwise
> manipulated browser.
>
>
[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2002, 9:01pm

Well, he did recently publish a list of people that need to update their
world servers. If your not lazy and *have* updated your world server,
there's nothing to worry about, if you haven't, well, its your own fault.
Anyway, what would he want with your silly little game world? I think your
thinking a bit too highly of yourself. Also, why do you want to be such an
ass? Its now a crime to go worldhopping? Everyone, look out. Worldhopping
is now considered hacking.

-Joe

[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2002, 10:10pm

Jeez Joe... lighten up some...... He's not being an ass...He was just asking.....
Yer starting to sound like Pee² :O/


[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2002, 10:12pm

hmm did i offended you in any way?
Our worldserver was updated after the aw annoncement...
and I did read the list you are talking about and even informed a friend who
was on it....
so is it enough and should i trust you when you say i have nothing to worry
about and feel secure?
LOL did you ever know there was a security issue before aw made this
announcement ?

nevermind, I was just giving info to people who was maybe not running a bot
when a tourist called "Sleepy E" entered their world...
If you feel it was wrong,well , you could just have told me.. don t need to
be so agressive...Joeman

about our 'silly little' game world, Ombre and I just spent 6 months on it
so you probably can understand we are concerned by any security issue...a
cracker can't get bot source but could certainly steal objects and
textures.. by the way , how do you know it is a silly little game? we haven
t see you there but we would be glad you come and fulfill the quest ;))) it
is certainly not perfect and we are still working on bugs but i wonder how
you can state on something you don t even try... further more, I wonder how
we can trust your judgment when you re so fast to give it

You seem to give Sleepy E a lot of credits, like we really do.. and he is
certainly a good guy.... but what do you think about other crakers? do you
think they are smart enough to crack aw and dumb enough to use their own
name? LOL.. if I was a cracker i would certainly use "Sleepy E" as my
tourist name. so who knows? certainly not you....

did I say worldhopping is bad? nope... are you saying that using a cracked
version, worldhopping in search of a vulnerable worldserver is fair? hmm we
dont share the same values....

MilesTeg & Ombre


"joeman" <joeman at bootdown.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3d826e58$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Well, he did recently publish a list of people that need to update their
> world servers. If your not lazy and *have* updated your world server,
> there's nothing to worry about, if you haven't, well, its your own fault.
> Anyway, what would he want with your silly little game world? I think
your
> thinking a bit too highly of yourself. Also, why do you want to be such
an
> ass? Its now a crime to go worldhopping? Everyone, look out.
Worldhopping
> is now considered hacking.
>
> -Joe
>
[View Quote]

Sep 13, 2002, 10:28pm

Seriously, get your facts straight... below.

[View Quote] Your just making things up. Lions, tigers, and bears, oh my. Really, hes
not going to steal your objects or take your world. Why would he need, even
want your world?

>
> nevermind, I was just giving info to people who was maybe not running a
bot
> when a tourist called "Sleepy E" entered their world...
> If you feel it was wrong,well , you could just have told me.. don t need
to
> be so agressive...Joeman

Wow, a tourist entered your nontourist world. Maybe if you had an upgraded
world server before the announcement, this wouldn't have happened?

>
> about our 'silly little' game world, Ombre and I just spent 6 months on it
> so you probably can understand we are concerned by any security issue...a
> cracker can't get bot source but could certainly steal objects and
> textures.. by the way , how do you know it is a silly little game? we
haven
> t see you there but we would be glad you come and fulfill the quest ;)))
it
> is certainly not perfect and we are still working on bugs but i wonder how
> you can state on something you don t even try... further more, I wonder
how
> we can trust your judgment when you re so fast to give it

All games in AW are silly. Theres no point to them. AW lets everyone with
an idea make a game. All these paintball and capture the flag worlds are
getting lame. Also these silly preston run RPGs are making me sick. We
dont need another one. I dont want to fulfill any quest, or power up to win
the game.

>
> You seem to give Sleepy E a lot of credits, like we really do.. and he is
> certainly a good guy.... but what do you think about other crakers? do you
> think they are smart enough to crack aw and dumb enough to use their own
> name? LOL.. if I was a cracker i would certainly use "Sleepy E" as my
> tourist name. so who knows? certainly not you....

I give credit where credit is due. You give him no credit. You seem to
think hes some little cracker skript-kiddie wannabe. Well, earth calling
MilesTeg, hes not. He is a good guy, but its people like you who make him
look bad by starting rumors of "HES STEALIMG ME OBJECTS!!! I HAD NO PASSWORD
MACHNE BUT HE ISD FRUNNN!!!". I think those little kids sitting behind
their computer trying to crack the FBI and such have no life, and need a
swift kick in the rear.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge, I do know sleepy e's real name! *shock
horror* My gosh. Maybe, just maybe, it was from his... Email address?
Wow, I should power up and win your game. Maybe... not. I dont think your
creative enough to use "Sleepy E" as a name. How would I not know? You
dont know me, you aren't me, you have no idea what I know.

>
> did I say worldhopping is bad? nope... are you saying that using a cracked
> version, worldhopping in search of a vulnerable worldserver is fair? hmm
we
> dont share the same values....

He was never looking for vulnerable world servers to take over. Hes was
doing people a favor about notifying them that they needed to upgrade. How
is that a crime? As of now, no one should help anyone. Period.

>
> MilesTeg & Ombre

Take your medication and maybe there wouldn't be two of you.

-Joe

>
>
> "joeman" <joeman at bootdown.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 3d826e58$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
fault.
> your
> an
> Worldhopping
tourist
> build
manipulation
>
>

Sep 13, 2002, 10:33pm

An identity claiming to be known as "linn" <ironhead at digitalpassage.com> scribed the following <3d823bf0 at server1.Activeworlds.com> at general.discussion:

>so you guys are telling me its ok for SE to do what he does? whatever that
>is lol ok then why are world owners not told this so that when the world
>is set for no tourists (sadly) they will know if he appears its ok?

Linn, did you even know some companies even hire some hackers so they can try to do their *worst*? They get paid for finding loopholes and security problems. They actually get paid quite a lot for what they do. Ok, Sleepy E isn't hired by AW, but if he's using expired cits to stay in AW and do his *stuff* then I guess what he's getting paid is the right to stay in AW and use the cits he wishes?

I personally don't mind :o)


--
,,,,,
(o o)
/--------------ooO--(_)--Ooo--------------\
| Anduin (317281) |
| o The Gorean Scribe |
| o http://www.anduin-lothario.com |
| o World: GorSJ (18+ Only) |
\--------------ooO-------Ooo--------------/

Sep 13, 2002, 11:43pm

LOL , cool down boy...

"joeman" <joeman at bootdown.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3d8282be$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Seriously, get your facts straight... below.

how could i consider you seriously, you re too agressive, you didn't even
try to understand my point...
>
[View Quote] I m sure Sleepy E would not want to take anything from our world...
but...you take for granted that a tourist called "Sleepy E" must be Sleepy
E? LOL

>
> bot
> to
>
> Wow, a tourist entered your nontourist world. Maybe if you had an
upgraded
> world server before the announcement, this wouldn't have happened?
>
did I say when it happened? no, if you were smart , you should have asked
first...
It happened sept 12th .. that means only 36 hours ago .......almost 1 month
after upgrade...



it
issue...a
> haven
> it
how
> how
>
> All games in AW are silly. Theres no point to them. AW lets everyone
with
> an idea make a game. All these paintball and capture the flag worlds are
> getting lame. Also these silly preston run RPGs are making me sick. We
> dont need another one. I dont want to fulfill any quest, or power up to
win
> the game.

that's not a paintball nor a preston... it is mainly a game with puzzles to
solve, integrated in a story...you know; the kind of things that make you
use your brain...it just adds the multi player aspect as all people around
see and hear what you're doing...people who tried it ,seems to like it...but
it is in Aw.. so it has its limits...

is
you
>
> I give credit where credit is due. You give him no credit. You seem to
> think hes some little cracker skript-kiddie wannabe. Well, earth calling
> MilesTeg, hes not. He is a good guy, but its people like you who make him
> look bad by starting rumors of "HES STEALIMG ME OBJECTS!!! I HAD NO
PASSWORD
> MACHNE BUT HE ISD FRUNNN!!!". I think those little kids sitting behind
> their computer trying to crack the FBI and such have no life, and need a
> swift kick in the rear.

I gave him no credits? is my english so bad? I said "like we really do" ,
meaning we give Sleepy E credits too...
Programming is my job, i'm not a teen, boy, I do understand what Sleepy E is
able to do and it is more than I can .. I do not consider him as a script
kiddie..he is a very smart guy. hey ! read my name MilesTeg, not eep!

>
> I wouldn't be so quick to judge, I do know sleepy e's real name! *shock
> horror* My gosh. Maybe, just maybe, it was from his... Email address?
> Wow, I should power up and win your game. Maybe... not. I dont think
your
> creative enough to use "Sleepy E" as a name. How would I not know? You
> dont know me, you aren't me, you have no idea what I know.

So you know for sure that the one who entered our world,at a time you didn t
know, was Sleepy E?
well you know more than us, boy.. feel free to share your info, I bet
worldowners will appreciate and this kind of thread would have no reason...
ahahah how could you know how creative I am... no wonder if you judge person
as fast as you judge world you didn t even see.. LOL you re funny guy ..
you re a worldowner , aren't you ? let me know your worldname... i would be
glad to see your creativity..
and I promise i will not judge as fast as you do... :)
>
cracked
> we
>
> He was never looking for vulnerable world servers to take over. Hes was
> doing people a favor about notifying them that they needed to upgrade.
How
> is that a crime? As of now, no one should help anyone. Period.
>
did you read what i wrote? how could i know that it is really Sleepy E? you
know his real name.. but do you always know his ip address, his cit number ?
share with us , boy..
try to not misunderstand what i m saying ! I do appreciate Sleepy E giving
list of vulnerable worldserver, and I do appreciate his effort to find
security hole so AW can be safer....but that doesn t mean we don t have to
worry .. as long as we don't know who is really trying to hack.. . don't
expect worldowners to bend over and smile, just because You say we should...

>
> Take your medication and maybe there wouldn't be two of you.

we don t need medication... You just need to wait your hormonal level is low
enough to avoid to reply so animously...


MilesTeg.


>
> -Joe
>
their
> fault.
such
> tourist
not
> manipulation
>
>

Sep 14, 2002, 12:09am

Lame, lame, and more lame. First, I am not a boy. You are showing your
insecurities by calling me one. Second, well, below.

[View Quote] If I were agressive, I'd bring out the rusty spoon and start stabbing
people.

>
> I m sure Sleepy E would not want to take anything from our world...
> but...you take for granted that a tourist called "Sleepy E" must be Sleepy
> E? LOL

It is, check your facts, "twit". Hey, look, I am like eep. Sue me.

> did I say when it happened? no, if you were smart , you should have asked
> first...
> It happened sept 12th .. that means only 36 hours ago .......almost 1
month
> after upgrade...

I dont care when it happened. This means grimm needs to get off his lazy
ass and code in a section to respond to the ident query. This is all basic
stuff, if a tourist ident query shows up, the uniserver should send back an
RC to disconnect the user.

> that's not a paintball nor a preston... it is mainly a game with puzzles
to
> solve, integrated in a story...you know; the kind of things that make you
> use your brain...it just adds the multi player aspect as all people around
> see and hear what you're doing...people who tried it ,seems to like
it...but
> it is in Aw.. so it has its limits...

Wow... ok? Maybe once they let me attend middle school, I can try to power
up and win the puzzel story game of doom. Or not...

> I gave him no credits? is my english so bad? I said "like we really do" ,
> meaning we give Sleepy E credits too...
> Programming is my job, i'm not a teen, boy, I do understand what Sleepy E
is
> able to do and it is more than I can .. I do not consider him as a script
> kiddie..he is a very smart guy. hey ! read my name MilesTeg, not eep!

I know your not a teen, but you keep calling me boy. You have a strange boy
fetish. Are you sure your alright? And yes, your english and punctuation
are both bad. Remember the rules from first grade? Doesn't look like it,
but I'm not one to know, I'm still in second grade.

>
> So you know for sure that the one who entered our world,at a time you didn
t
> know, was Sleepy E?
> well you know more than us, boy.. feel free to share your info, I bet
> worldowners will appreciate and this kind of thread would have no
reason...
> ahahah how could you know how creative I am... no wonder if you judge
person
> as fast as you judge world you didn t even see.. LOL you re funny guy ..
> you re a worldowner , aren't you ? let me know your worldname... i would
be
> glad to see your creativity..
> and I promise i will not judge as fast as you do... :)

Lame, yet again, you can use resources avaliable to you to find what you're
looking for. My world is a'odd, come in and piss, moan, or bitch about
anything.

> did you read what i wrote? how could i know that it is really Sleepy E?
you
> know his real name.. but do you always know his ip address, his cit number
?
> share with us , boy..
> try to not misunderstand what i m saying ! I do appreciate Sleepy E giving
> list of vulnerable worldserver, and I do appreciate his effort to find
> security hole so AW can be safer....but that doesn t mean we don t have to
> worry .. as long as we don't know who is really trying to hack.. . don't
> expect worldowners to bend over and smile, just because You say we
should...

Well, I get to prove you wrong... yay... Stop calling me boy, jesus...

From: "Sleepy E" <sleepy_e at sverige.nu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: as11-2-1.sde.bonet.se
Message-ID: <3d78c12e at ns.storage.co.hu>
X-Trace: ns.storage.co.hu 1031323950 as11-2-1.sde.bonet.se (6 Sep 2002
16:52:30 +0200)

Lets break this down a little, ok? If you do a tracert on
as11-2-1.sde.bonet.se, guess what you get? 217.215.50.243 Holy cow batman!
It looks like we have a match. You dont have much option other than
"bending over and smiling". Thats a really odd phrase... Are you really
sure your ok?


> we don t need medication... You just need to wait your hormonal level is
low
> enough to avoid to reply so animously...

They, er, you do need meds. You're one person. We've already had this
problem with InSaNiTy/Lars/Your Mother/whoever. We dont need yet another
skitzo in the newsgroups, its already getting scary. Also, I love my
hormones, without them, I'd be some odd unisexual... thing. Me and my
hormonal levels are correct for my age, and will remain correct until I go
and do something stupid.

-Joe

Sep 14, 2002, 12:18am

Joe, chill man...... Milesteg is one of the most helpful ppl here..... have a little respect..
Just because you dont like RPG's , bot games or whatever, doesn't mean other ppl
might not..... Christ sakes, read your posts lately, you're sounding more like crEep
every day :O( whats up with that ? So you think it's silly.....
That's no reason to be rude and insult the guy.... sheesh..... Nobody here talks to you that way.

And he HAS a valid point ..... could have been ANY Little jerk using something to get in his world
as a tourist,
under Sleepy E's name... See what I mean? Could be someone else trying to start trouble for Sleepy,
by doin crap
while using his name.......



[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 12:24am

Its not my loathing for all the new lame RPG worlds that have been popping
up all over AW for the past few years, its someone spouting off about
something that they know nothing about. I already proved that it was
sleepy, so, its really the end of that. If he would have done his homework,
then this whole thing wouldn't have happened.

-Joe

[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 12:27am

Looks like it's already too late. :P

Joe, what the hell are you getting on MilesTeg's case about? He *agrees*
with you, for Chrissake! The only point he's trying to make is that just
because Sleepy E is one of the good guys doesn't mean other "hackers"
are so noble. MilesTeg, and every other world owner in AW, has a right
to be concerned about hackers/crackers entering their worlds, even if
it's something as innocuous as a tourist going where he shouldn't go.
It's not as if Sleepy E will stop the other crackers just because he
finds the holes first.

[View Quote]
--
Goober King
Could stand to take a chill pill for those raging hormones...
robrod at prism.net

Sep 14, 2002, 12:44am

At first, he was blaming.

"is he worldhoping to see who is using an outdated worldserver?"

That seems like he's blaming Sleepy E for looking for outdated world servers
to exploit. He just *started* to agree that sleepy is indeed, a good person
with good intentions. That's not where my beef is.

-Joe (needs sleep and money)

[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 12:52am

Um... MilesTeg said nothing in his original post that blamed Sleepy E of anything, he simply stated a fact and asked a question. I think you may be reading a wee bit too much into the lines here...

[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 1:15am

why 'Boy'? because insulting people like you did, makes you appear
childish...don t you think?

I gave facts i had, you just gave me back insults...
Sure you were right.. it was really Sleepy E as it is shown in his posts in
andras NG.. the ip address is the same....
but did you need two insulting posts to gave us that info?

by the way ,sorry for my english faults....english is not my natural
language but i m sure you already checked the facts and noticed my ip
address is from france.

a'odd? nice world, only saw a farm at gz tho... well,a kind of farm..
cultivation is not very legal...

I added Ombre to my post because she read,over my shoulder , your insulting
post about the world we own...and agreed to my answer...
now, if you think we are one person, just ask Robbie ( you certainly know
him.. i saw his name in a'odd or maybe it is just someone with the same
name).

MilesTeg


"joeman" <joeman at bootdown.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3d829a54 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Lame, lame, and more lame. First, I am not a boy. You are showing your
> insecurities by calling me one. Second, well, below.
>
[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 1:34am

ok guys I give I have decided , knowing what aw knows goes on and does
nothing about it, that maybe anything goes please don't ask for
examples we have seen the flames from those in the past signed "not
lol"
[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 6:03am

From what I know its just a simple but that allows tourists to log onto citizen ppws? So what, he must have the PPW for it (or so i presume)

- Mark
[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 8:52am

I have known Sleepy for several years. He is not only one of the good guys,
he is a very nice young man.

Example...
I entered my main world Chicago one day and found Sleepy there. A few
seconds later, I was looking at a sea of triangles. I laughed and asked
Sleepy what the hell kind of hole he found now. He explained the major hole
he found and we discussed who he was going to give the info to. The next
day, AW issued the world server patch.

Sleepy does not have ed in any of my worlds, not that he needs it, but is
allowed to use any of my worlds without asking to test his theory's.
Besides, if you ever forget your object pw, you can just ask Sleepy for it
:-)

Talian

[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 11:25am

[View Quote] Child fetish == Illegal

> I gave facts i had, you just gave me back insults...
> Sure you were right.. it was really Sleepy E as it is shown in his posts
in
> andras NG.. the ip address is the same....
> but did you need two insulting posts to gave us that info?

I only gave you "insults" because you were trying to act like you knew
something you didn't. Really, if you would have done your homework, this
never would have happened.

> by the way ,sorry for my english faults....english is not my natural
> language but i m sure you already checked the facts and noticed my ip
> address is from france.
>
> a'odd? nice world, only saw a farm at gz tho... well,a kind of farm..
> cultivation is not very legal...

Are you sure? This is... *gasp* cyberspace, not many laws about pot.

> I added Ombre to my post because she read,over my shoulder , your
insulting
> post about the world we own...and agreed to my answer...
> now, if you think we are one person, just ask Robbie ( you certainly know
> him.. i saw his name in a'odd or maybe it is just someone with the same
> name).

I dont put "- Joe and his slightly delusional lover robbie" at the bottom of
my posts ;). Im glad you could clear up my misunderstanding.


- Joe

> MilesTeg
>
>
> "joeman" <joeman at bootdown.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 3d829a54 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> even
> Sleepy
> asked
lazy
> basic
> an
puzzles
> you
> around
> power
do"
> ,
Sleepy
> E
> script
> boy
punctuation
it,
> didn
...
would
> you're
E?
> number
> giving
have
> to
don't
> batman!
is
another
go
>
>

Sep 14, 2002, 12:28pm

Joe, I'm going to kindly request, in the nicest terms possible, that you
shut the hell up. You are acting like a total moron for no reason. So
unless you really *do* want everyone to think you're a "child", I
suggest you quit while you're ahead.

[View Quote]
--
Goober King
If only you could *prevent* stupidity...
robrod at prism.net

Sep 14, 2002, 12:32pm

You don't get it, do you? He wasn't saying that it *wasn't* Sleepy E, he
was only saying that it *might* not have been Sleepy E. It could very
easily have been some script kiddie using the tourist name "Sleepy E" to
fool everyone. If you can't understand a concept as simple as that, then
you'll need more than homework to help you. :P

[View Quote]
--
Goober King
Like medication...
robrod at prism.net

Sep 14, 2002, 1:27pm

"linn" <ironhead at digitalpassage.com> wrote in
news:3d823bf0 at server1.Activeworlds.com:

> so you guys are telling me its ok for SE to do what he does? whatever
> that is lol ok then why are world owners not told this so that when
> the world is set for no tourists (sadly) they will know if he appears

He's using bugs in the protocol and servers to come in as a tourist, then
he tells the devs at AWI about it and sometimes tells the public about it
after it's been fixed (or if the devs aren't doing anything about it, to
get them to do it before someone with bad intentions exploits it). He is
not dangereous, he doesn't damage stuff, he actually finds out how one can
damage stuff and warns about it so it can be prevented. He's found many
serious exploits in AW that have now been fixed, if script kiddies had
found it AW would've been much more plagued with evil cracks now. You
should be happy someone is out there trying to protect AW, without even
getting paid for it.

KAH

Sep 14, 2002, 3:10pm

I can't believe I'm even replying to this crap...

First of all, calling you a child does not mean he has some sort of liking for young boys. Implying that he does is just immature and counterproductive.

Secondly, since when has thinking a certain way been illegal? As long as they don't involve any real children, "liking" young boys is not illegal.

-Agent1


[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 9:10pm

And Ethical is another question entirely.

Chris

[View Quote]

Sep 14, 2002, 9:54pm

If you're saying that having a boy fetish et all is unethical, then:

Ethical: conforming to accepted standards of social or professional behavior.

_Behavior_. A person's likes and dislikes or beliefs are completely ethical unless he or she acts upon them in unethical manner.

If people were judged by their thoughts rather than their actions, then we'd all be in jail for something.

[View Quote]

Sep 15, 2002, 7:30am

So what? Tourists should not have been even banned in the first place. I
would rather ban narrowminded people who thinks black-and-white.(All hackers
are bad, All Iraques are bad. lets bomb them,Western culture is the only
right one etc)..I really wish people would learn to look at things from
different points of wievs, also points that are in conflict with own
belives.
As far as I know Sleepy has never caused any problems to anyone. He tests
things out of curiousity (I belive) and to help AW find bugs and security
risks. I prefer Sleepy to do this testing , rather than some "evil hacker" .

Drac
linn <ironhead at digitalpassage.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:3d822b66 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> yes I know too he was going into worlds that do not allow tourists
> as a tourist?? not a good thing
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Sep 15, 2002, 5:04pm

Has Eep, blocked every one of us and cannot see this? He hasnt responded
yet... Makes you wonder. Whos left to be blocked?
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Sep 15, 2002, 6:17pm

[View Quote] He was removed from posting on these newsgroups after a few of his extreme comments.

--Bowen--

Sep 15, 2002, 7:33pm

Thanks for clarifying for me, Shredd. Thinking one way certainly isn't
illegal. But acting on those thoughts is, and for good reason.

Many people just do what feels right. Screw what everyone else thinks,
especially their victim, who they themselves may not actually touch. But
there is at least someone else who did. In this context, at least.

Chris

[View Quote]

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