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What does it take? (Community)
What does it take? // CommunityinsanityOct 8, 2001, 11:45pm
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Below is a copy of another email from Noelle at AWcom. Again she suggests sending credit card information to her via e-mail. Is AW ever going to become professional and care about anyone else other than themselves? All professional services warn you never to send important credit card information via e-mail. They also warn that they will never ask for personal passwords etc. However, with AWcom, they continue to treat their clientele with no respect and suggest they risk credit card security so that they can gain their $$. Last week I notified AWcom that myself and another customer BOTH received alarming errors from AWcom's new site after entering credit card information. Both myself and the other customer were ignored! Again on Thursday I contacted Tom who again ignored my concern about their improperly functioning site! Friday a customer used the system and was double billed by AWcom sending them into overdraft and costing them fees! AWcom not only double billed them, they immediately killed their registered trial, and never sent them their new password all weekend. Now does "Take the Money and Run" sound familiar? The customer and myself sent e-mails and they were again ignored. The number one concern of AWcom should be the proper handling of customers credit cards and moneys!!!! What does it take? Letters of complaint to the Better Business Bureau? http://www.bb.org Contacting the FTC - Fair Trade Commission? http://www.ftc.gov/ Contacting your bank and the Credit Card Companies? I am really tired of the apathy AWcom has surrounding people's security. It is a shame they only appear to care about themselves and not the people who pay their wages! It is a sad shame that management appears nowhere in these matters but the lack of management and concern shows immensely! The latest credit card request by Noelle is pasted below: From: "Noelle" <noelle at activeworlds.com> To: ############### References: <#########> Subject: Re: renewal problems Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:52:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Rcpt-To: <##############> X-DPOP: DPOP Version 2.7w X-UIDL: ############## Status: U Hello - Be sure when you are "renewing" you are on the current form. The current link is http://www.activeworlds.com/products/worlds.asp You may also send me your order and card information or call 978-499-0222. I can not renew the world gratis. If you are mailing Tom already I would suggest you await an e-mail answer from him regarding this matter. Sincerely, Noelle Caterino Customer Service Activeworlds.com Inc. 95 Parker St. Newburyport, MA 01950 www.activeworlds.com --------------4AFE9585B1424AFFC226E126 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Below is a copy of another email from Noelle at AWcom. Again she suggests sending credit card information to her via e-mail. Is AW ever going to become professional and care about anyone else other than themselves? All professional services warn you never to send important credit card information via e-mail. They also warn that they will never ask for personal passwords etc. However, with AWcom, they continue to treat their clientele with no respect and suggest they risk credit card security so that they can gain their $$. <p>Last week I notified AWcom that myself and another customer BOTH received alarming errors from AWcom's new site after entering credit card information. Both myself and the other customer were ignored! Again on Thursday I contacted Tom who again ignored my concern about their improperly functioning site! Friday a customer used the system and was double billed by AWcom sending them into overdraft and costing them fees! AWcom not only double billed them, they immediately killed their registered trial, and never sent them their new password all weekend. Now does "Take the Money and Run" sound familiar? The customer and myself sent e-mails and they were again ignored. <p>The number one concern of AWcom should be the proper handling of customers credit cards and moneys!!!! <p>What does it take? <p>Letters of complaint to the Better Business Bureau? <br><A HREF="http://www.bb.org">http://www.bb.org</A> <p>Contacting the FTC - Fair Trade Commission? <br><A HREF="http://www.ftc.gov/">http://www.ftc.gov/</A> <p>Contacting your bank and the Credit Card Companies? <p>I am really tired of the apathy AWcom has surrounding people's security. It is a shame they only appear to care about themselves and not the people who pay their wages! It is a sad shame that management appears nowhere in these matters but the lack of management and concern shows immensely! <p>The latest credit card request by Noelle is pasted below: <p>From: "Noelle" <noelle at activeworlds.com> <br>To: ############### <br>References: <#########> <br>Subject: Re: renewal problems <br>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:52:22 -0700 <br>MIME-Version: 1.0 <br>Content-Type: text/plain; <br> charset="iso-8859-1" <br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <br>X-Priority: 3 <br>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal <br>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 <br>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 <br>X-Rcpt-To: <##############> <br>X-DPOP: DPOP Version 2.7w <br>X-UIDL: ############## <br>Status: U <p>Hello - <p>Be sure when you are "renewing" you are on the current form. The current <br>link is <A HREF="http://www.activeworlds.com/products/worlds.asp">http://www.activeworlds.com/products/worlds.asp</A> <p><b>You may also send me your order and card information</b> or call 978-499-0222. I <br>can not renew the world gratis. If you are mailing Tom already I would <br>suggest you await an e-mail answer from him regarding this matter. <p>Sincerely, <p>Noelle Caterino <br>Customer Service <br>Activeworlds.com Inc. <br>95 Parker St. <br>Newburyport, MA 01950 <p>www.activeworlds.com</html> --------------4AFE9585B1424AFFC226E126-- sw chrisOct 9, 2001, 12:36am
Responses within...
[View Quote] She also gives you the option of calling Active Worlds and doing it over the phone if you are concerned about security. All professional services warn you never to send important credit card information via e-mail. They also warn that they will never ask for personal passwords etc. However, with AWcom, they continue to treat their clientele with no respect and suggest they risk credit card security so that they can gain their $$. Try to keep the conspiratorial tone down, he? :) Everyone knows that you treat your customers properly or you _don't_ gain their $$. I'm pretty sure AWC has grasped that aspect of business. :P Last week I notified AWcom that myself and another customer BOTH received alarming errors from AWcom's new site after entering credit card information. Both myself and the other customer were ignored! Again on Thursday I contacted Tom who again ignored my concern about their improperly functioning site! Noelle's response could be the response to both of these inquiries. Friday a customer used the system and was double billed by AWcom sending them into overdraft and costing them fees! He probably double-clicked on the Submit button. AWcom not only double billed them, they immediately killed their registered trial, and never sent them their new password all weekend. Now does "Take the Money and Run" sound familiar? The customer and myself sent e-mails and they were again ignored. Maybe a side effect of having a semi-automated system, registering right before closing time, and not having a full customer-service department in place yet after Facter's dismissal? :) Again, probably technical problems, but it definitely should be resolved in either case. The number one concern of AWcom should be the proper handling of customers credit cards and moneys!!!! What does it take? Letters of complaint to the Better Business Bureau? http://www.bb.org Contacting the FTC - Fair Trade Commission? http://www.ftc.gov/ Contacting your bank and the Credit Card Companies? I am really tired of the apathy AWcom has surrounding people's security. It is a shame they only appear to care about themselves and not the people who pay their wages! It is a sad shame that management appears nowhere in these matters but the lack of management and concern shows immensely! -- SW Chris Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master? http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html insanityOct 9, 2001, 1:43pm
So Chris, if a thief asks you to hand over your purse or have it ripped out of
your hands... that makes the wrong a right because you were given an option? NO One should ever suggest a customer send credit card information via e-mail! As for the double bill... AW fails to place a kill command in their script which would easily prevent a double bill error! You know how much and extra $200 overdraft can end up costing a user? Add up all the other check that will bounce... $200 could easily become $500 at $25 per return fee. All very sad events simply because a company is neglecting the protection of their customers. THAT is why I pointed out the negligent request by Noelle to risk CC info by e-mail. That shows AW does not care about your security. If they did, they would never suggest you do such an absurd and riskful act! I am only asking that the company begin to act responsibly! [View Quote] > Responses within... [View Quote] sw chrisOct 9, 2001, 2:02pm
Well if you thought I was defending them, I wasn't. Only stating possible
alternative explanations. -- SW Chris Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master? http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html [View Quote] grimbleOct 9, 2001, 5:17pm
Actually, I read SW Chris's replies as perfectly feasible alternatives to
the paranoia you seem to be exhibiting. Its up to you to look after your money. If you don't trust a person or company that you are purchasing goods or services from, then its your responsibility to ensure that the transaction is carried out to your satisfaction. I don't see that it really warrants a whining post in the Community newsgroup. Grims. [View Quote] dj partyOct 9, 2001, 7:55pm
Think:
Not all of AW's users or computer users are completely computer literate. They may have found this program and thats it. You shouldn't assume that customers know exactly what they are doing. Some customer could of course have sent in their CC number in an e-mail or could have double clicked. Both COULD have happened, but if AW did more than the average, that would make them a better company. Don't get me wrong, AW Inc is doing their job and is doing nothing completely wrong. But they COULD go beyond the call and maybe do better than before. AW Inc. stand up and help your customers, don't assume, because when you assume it makes an a** out of you and me. DJ Party ----- Original Message ----- From: "grimble" <grimble2000 at btinternet.com> Newsgroups: community Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 3:17 PM Subject: Re: What does it take? > Actually, I read SW Chris's replies as perfectly feasible alternatives to > the paranoia you seem to be exhibiting. > > Its up to you to look after your money. If you don't trust a person or > company that you are purchasing goods or services from, then its your > responsibility to ensure that the transaction is carried out to your > satisfaction. I don't see that it really warrants a whining post in the > Community newsgroup. > > Grims. > [View Quote] grimbleOct 9, 2001, 8:34pm
But that's the basic point. The safeguard of YOUR money is YOUR concern. If
you don't treat it, and the instruments at your disposal for spending it, with care then you only have yourself to blame. An exeperienced/unknowing user e-mailing their credit card details to someone is synonymous with writing them on a piece of paper and sticking them in a box with a hole on the front. If you don't understand what that box is or does, then you gotta be pretty dumb to put your credit card details in it, don't you think? Its about time people took responsible for their own lives, possessions and actions in this world - not too much to ask really. Just as an aside, consider all the crap that is purely there to protect idiots from themselves. Warning signs like "Mind your head" being the classic. Look around and you'll be amazed how many examples you'll find. Grims. [View Quote] sw chrisOct 10, 2001, 1:06am
Hehe... my favorite saying is all over the tubes in London. "Mind the gap"
=P As another aside, can you just picture a bunch of American tourists chanting that over and over again in a pseudo-brittish accent? I've seen it done. :D -- SW Chris Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master? http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html [View Quote] rpg helperOct 10, 2001, 7:09am
What does it take to get AW to listen to the people and not their
wallet? The only way to get some company like AW to begin to consider about helping out it's coustomers is for the coustomers to leave AW for other universes and thus make AW go poorer. When they realize they are heading into the RED ZONE as far as dollar revenue they usually will take stok of themselves and make serious changes on how to help & listen to coustomers complaints and wishes. It's the same trick that many people that have a gripe against people will often do in other places. VOW not to purchase AW products for the most part and force the companies hands. "sw chris" <chrisw10 at nckcn.com> wrote in news:3bc3bb52 at server1.Activeworlds.com: > Hehe... my favorite saying is all over the tubes in London. "Mind > the gap" >=P As another aside, can you just picture a bunch of American >tourists > chanting that over and over again in a pseudo-brittish accent? I've > seen it done. :D > -- > SW Chris > Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master? > http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html > [View Quote] agent1Oct 10, 2001, 11:28am
Making AW "go poorer" will only make it harder for them to make the changes that so many people want. How can they do *anything* without funds?
-Agent1 [View Quote] sw chrisOct 10, 2001, 1:40pm
How do we know they are in the red zone? :)
-- SW Chris Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master? http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html "rpg helper" <noneasyet at jfk2_please_set_me_up_with_your_path_server_fo.com> [View Quote] grimbleOct 10, 2001, 2:58pm
Shhh everyone .... I think I heard the calm voice of reason and common sense
just then!!! Glad to see someone out there is capable of looking at things from a point of view other than their own ;o) "Its not fair" is all I keep reading in here recently. Grims [View Quote] casayOct 10, 2001, 5:34pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1518F.E48243C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wondering how AW was origionaly contacted over the obvious web site = problem? Did you write to support or?=20 Casay [View Quote] The number one concern of AWcom should be the proper handling of = customers credit cards and moneys!!!!=20 What does it take?=20 Letters of complaint to the Better Business Bureau?=20 http://www.bb.org=20 Contacting the FTC - Fair Trade Commission?=20 http://www.ftc.gov/=20 Contacting your bank and the Credit Card Companies?=20 I am really tired of the apathy AWcom has surrounding people's = security. It is a shame they only appear to care about themselves and = not the people who pay their wages! It is a sad shame that management = appears nowhere in these matters but the lack of management and concern = shows immensely!=20 The latest credit card request by Noelle is pasted below:=20 From: "Noelle" <noelle at activeworlds.com>=20 To: ###############=20 References: <#########>=20 Subject: Re: renewal problems=20 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:52:22 -0700=20 MIME-Version: 1.0=20 Content-Type: text/plain;=20 charset=3D"iso-8859-1"=20 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit=20 X-Priority: 3=20 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal=20 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200=20 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200=20 X-Rcpt-To: <##############>=20 X-DPOP: DPOP Version 2.7w=20 X-UIDL: ##############=20 Status: U=20 Hello -=20 Be sure when you are "renewing" you are on the current form. The = current=20 link is http://www.activeworlds.com/products/worlds.asp=20 You may also send me your order and card information or call = 978-499-0222. I=20 can not renew the world gratis. If you are mailing Tom already I would = suggest you await an e-mail answer from him regarding this matter.=20 Sincerely,=20 Noelle Caterino=20 Customer Service=20 Activeworlds.com Inc.=20 95 Parker St.=20 Newburyport, MA 01950=20 www.activeworlds.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1518F.E48243C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just wondering how AW was origionaly = contacted over=20 the obvious web site problem? Did you write to support or? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Casay</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV>"insanity" <<A = href=3D"mailto:peace at nospam.com">peace at nospam.com</A>>=20 [View Quote] <P><B>You may also send me your order and card information</B> or call = 978-499-0222. I <BR>can not renew the world gratis. If you are mailing = Tom=20 already I would <BR>suggest you await an e-mail answer from him = regarding this=20 matter.=20 <P>Sincerely,=20 <P>Noelle Caterino <BR>Customer Service <BR>Activeworlds.com Inc. = <BR>95=20 Parker St. <BR>Newburyport, MA 01950=20 <P>www.activeworlds.com </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1518F.E48243C0-- birdmikeOct 10, 2001, 7:18pm
In reality, supporting another universe like Outer Worlds (etc.) would
probably help AW out more than not renewing your citizenship and possibly world in AW, because you help keep a larger client (the universe) in business who pays a lot more $ to AW than you do. I do agree with the argument that AW should be more responsible with credit card information though. "rpg helper" <noneasyet at jfk2_please_set_me_up_with_your_path_server_fo.com> [View Quote] lanezeriOct 10, 2001, 8:35pm
Stop complaining.. either call them or send the info thru E-mail.. I've sent
my information through e-mail before to her.. she is a very nice person, as I talked to her for a minute or two.. credit card fraud is very illegal and very traceable.. calm down and think about it.. would you use someone else's CC info to buy something? Most people who do get caught.. -- Lanezeri Lead Bot Programmer at Stuff-X http://aw.stuff-x.com [View Quote] peace walkerOct 10, 2001, 8:45pm
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In answer to your question Casay... AW was contacted first by two people to support, Tom, and Noelle and also included at least one phone call. That was the first time on 9-28 through 10-1. There were also numerous grams back and forth to Flagg (Tom) on 10-1 which he then blew off to Noelle and then dropped dropped. A user gets annoyed when 20 messages go forth then they receive a foolish reply from someone un-informed. When I attempted to follow up on Thursday, Tom ignored it. On the next Friday again support, Tom, customer service, were all contacted and again customer called in this past Monday. Now I e-mailed Tom, Support, cof and Enzo (Rick Noll) and again, e-mail has been ignored. The only person who showed any professionalism has been Roland. Roland helped were he could on Friday. Roland is limited though and can not help in over billing matters or HQ matters such as world's registration etc. He did agree about it's serious nature and was going to speak with HQ about it. Roland has always been professional and time has proven that. Now when it comes to money matters, AW's ignoring e-mails is begging to appear more as intended negligence rather than any concern to handle other's credit information safely. It only takes seconds to reply that the matter is being looked into. As to not informing trial owners that they will loose their world instantly and may need to await days before AW sends them their world password. That is simply neglect. AW has been around for years...At one point users got the e-mail immediately... has not been the case on the new site. Don't you think users deserve the warning? After all, AW operates as a 24/7 universe. Users get very hurt when they pay and then see their world is gone! Add the fact they they then find themselves having an additional $200 taken from the and sending them to ovedraft because the site failed to kill double bill attempts and you have one hurt and screwed new customer. In my book and they way i was raised... 1 screwed customer is 1 too many. But in AW's case, this has happened before... and I an certain from the apathy, sadly, will happen again. And how else does AW learn of these matters? Well one should expect that the company who hosts this newsgroup should spend a few minutes per day to read them! I have posted this so that others can be forewarned about what is actually happening and to also hope it will force AW into taking actions to protect it's users. Also I would like to see AW policy changed to NEVER asking for someone to send credit card info via e-mail. That is JUST PLAIN WRONG! Let's be honest here... The largest amount of AW revenue comes from NEW users who barely even know how to operate on the internet but like the concept of AW. AWcom knows this and should stop trying to capitalize on their errors! We all learn and to abuse those while learning is wrong. This is not a happy matter for me... I work hard at helping people and I do not like seeing them hurt because of a "we could care less' attitude. Hoping power of the press will help *S* Although many do not post... they do read and become more informed. Just view the newsgroups from an independent eye... the majority of posts are angry users... and one would have to look very far to see actions taken to rectify the many concerns which have been posted through the years. I can hope that can one day change can't I? Peace, health & healing... [View Quote] > Just wondering how AW was origionaly contacted over the obvious web > site problem? Did you write to support or?Casay > [View Quote] --------------645D68553C795F05F71D2CDA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> In answer to your question Casay... AW was contacted first by two people to support, Tom, and Noelle and also included at least one phone call. That was the first time on 9-28 through 10-1. There were also numerous grams back and forth to Flagg (Tom) on 10-1 which he then blew off to Noelle and then dropped dropped. A user gets annoyed when 20 messages go forth then they receive a foolish reply from someone un-informed. When I attempted to follow up on Thursday, Tom ignored it. On the next Friday again support, Tom, customer service, were all contacted and again customer called in this past Monday. Now I e-mailed Tom, Support, cof and Enzo (Rick Noll) and again, e-mail has been ignored. The only person who showed any professionalism has been Roland. Roland helped were he could on Friday. Roland is limited though and can not help in over billing matters or HQ matters such as world's registration etc. He did agree about it's serious nature and was going to speak with HQ about it. Roland has always been professional and time has proven that. <p>Now when it comes to money matters, AW's ignoring e-mails is begging to appear more as intended negligence rather than any concern to handle other's credit information safely. It only takes seconds to reply that the matter is being looked into. <p>As to not informing trial owners that they will loose their world instantly and may need to await days before AW sends them their world password. That is simply neglect. AW has been around for years...At one point users got the e-mail immediately... has not been the case on the new site. Don't you think users deserve the warning? After all, AW operates as a 24/7 universe. Users get very hurt when they pay and then see their world is gone! Add the fact they they then find themselves having an additional $200 taken from the and sending them to ovedraft because the site failed to kill double bill attempts and you have one hurt and screwed new customer. In my book and they way i was raised... 1 screwed customer is 1 too many. But in AW's case, this has happened before... and I an certain from the apathy, sadly, will happen again. <p>And how else does AW learn of these matters? Well one should expect that the company who hosts this newsgroup should spend a few minutes per day to read them! I have posted this so that others can be forewarned about what is actually happening and to also hope it will force AW into taking actions to protect it's users. Also I would like to see AW policy changed to NEVER asking for someone to send credit card info via e-mail. That is JUST PLAIN WRONG! <p>Let's be honest here... The largest amount of AW revenue comes from NEW users who barely even know how to operate on the internet but like the concept of AW. AWcom knows this and should stop trying to capitalize on their errors! We all learn and to abuse those while learning is wrong. This is not a happy matter for me... I work hard at helping people and I do not like seeing them hurt because of a "we could care less' attitude. <p>Hoping power of the press will help *S* Although many do not post... they do read and become more informed. Just view the newsgroups from an independent eye... the majority of posts are angry users... and one would have to look very far to see actions taken to rectify the many concerns which have been posted through the years. I can hope that can one day change can't I? <p>Peace, health & healing... <br> [View Quote] </body> </html> --------------645D68553C795F05F71D2CDA-- grimbleOct 10, 2001, 8:58pm
The focus of these points are somewhat different from the original post, and
now its clear why the frustrations are there. Its difficult to have much respect for a company that seemingly refuses to respond to e-mails, although I would find it hard to believe that anyone is being ignored by AWC, unless its because the wrong person is being expected to deal with it by the company and they've pushed it to the bottom of their list - everyone has done it at some point ... pushed the stuff you'd rather not deal with straight away further down the to-do pile. I'm not saying its right, but it happens. I am sure that *some* resolution would be forthcoming sometime soon. Sounds like phoning AWC would be the only course of action open to you right now. However, I dont' think I agree that "the largest amount of AW revenue comes from NEW users" ... I think the commercial aspects of AW and the licences on the other universes would massively outweigh the miserly $20 a year gained by AW citizenships. Anyway ... a few thoughts. Grims sw chrisOct 10, 2001, 11:10pm
Peace, health, and healing? Who are you, Chris Pirillo?
-- SW Chris Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master? http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html [View Quote] [View Quote] bcgOct 10, 2001, 11:31pm
Just ponder this for a minute. Who exactly is the company here? Is it
really my job to pay them for their services, and then take even more time to make sure they are doing them correctly? If ActiveWorlds was really a serious company, they would make sure that their clients were not double-billed, or ask for credit card information via e-mail. E-mails can be intercepted by just about anyone. Would you be willing to give out your credit card information in a public chat room? I think not. BCG [View Quote] grimbleOct 11, 2001, 2:28am
Geesh! NO ... I wouldn't .... because its DUMB to do that!
Its quite simple really ... you pay for what you want to pay for, and pay for it in a manner with which you are comfortable. If you're either not happy with the service or aren't happy paying for that service using one of the methods available to you ... then by all means, vote with your feet. HOWEVER ... AWC have a telephone - remember them? Don't kick 'em just because they, like many many other companies, don't provide facilities for secure internet payments. It costs money for a company to use services to acquire credit card transactions over the internet and I'm pretty certain that the volume of internet payments they would receive wouldn't justify the cost to them. If people can't be bothered to pick up a phone and do it the old fashioned way, then they can damned well go without. Grims. [View Quote] Would you be willing to give out your credit card information in a public chat room? I think not. peace walkerOct 11, 2001, 2:59am
Ever think Grimble? When people use the AW site they have no idea they are
about to be double billed... or the other problems listed. You are thinking in a way that is termed "ass-backward". The whole purpose of the post was to show that AW needs to act a bit more responsibly in quite a few ways and start acting with professionalism. They are OBLIGATED to act more precisely by merchant agreements. Your words seem to imply that in your mind any site doing any wrong is ok seeing how the person chose to chance a purchase there. That is not the way the United States Fair Trade works with commerce. We have laws and we as a society have established standards for business. [View Quote] > Geesh! NO ... I wouldn't .... because its DUMB to do that! > > Its quite simple really ... you pay for what you want to pay for, and pay > for it in a manner with which you are comfortable. If you're either not > happy with the service or aren't happy paying for that service using one of > the methods available to you ... then by all means, vote with your feet. > HOWEVER ... AWC have a telephone - remember them? Don't kick 'em just > because they, like many many other companies, don't provide facilities for > secure internet payments. It costs money for a company to use services to > acquire credit card transactions over the internet and I'm pretty certain > that the volume of internet payments they would receive wouldn't justify the > cost to them. > > If people can't be bothered to pick up a phone and do it the old fashioned > way, then they can damned well go without. > > Grims. > [View Quote] rpg helperOct 11, 2001, 4:09am
At some point in time the owners of Dreamland Park Universe bought a
really big universe from Active Worlds. Now the trick is to make Active Worlds feel a pinch from people Not buying direct from AW. So you want to become a citizen, You buy it with Dreamland Park Universe. You want a galaxy, You buy from Dreamland Park Universe. You want to buy a universe, You buy from Dreamland Park Universe. What you are doing is buying direct from Dreamland Park Universe and NOT from AW. Thus AW is not getting any more new cit sales and that will start to hurt at some point in time and make AW take stock of it's situation and begin to think of it's policy towards helping it's coustomers or it's coustomers simply jump ship to another place that will listen. "sw chris" <chrisw10 at nckcn.com> wrote in news:3bc46bf7 at server1.Activeworlds.com: > How do we know they are in the red zone? :) > -- > SW Chris > Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master? > http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html > > "rpg helper" > <noneasyet at jfk2_please_set_me_up_with_your_path_server_fo.com> wrote > in message news:Xns9136340F57AFEjfk2jfkmusiccom at 166.90.181.12... > > > rpg helperOct 11, 2001, 4:14am
Going to Outerworlds Universe won't help AW any. That is because once
you buy a universe for $$ amount, you don't ever have to pay yearly fees to keep it running as you do with worlds. Even buying a galaxy makes you imune to that yearly fee to keep it going routine. If you force AW's hand then they will listen. But that is the only way that the most of us could force AW's hand as most of us don't know enough programming to do the forceful tricks of certain people by making their worlds seem to be like a universe or galaxy. "birdmike" <birdmike at home.com> wrote in news:3bc4bb2e at server1.Activeworlds.com: > In reality, supporting another universe like Outer Worlds (etc.) > would probably help AW out more than not renewing your citizenship > and possibly world in AW, because you help keep a larger client (the > universe) in business who pays a lot more $ to AW than you do. > > I do agree with the argument that AW should be more responsible with > credit card information though. > > "rpg helper" > <noneasyet at jfk2_please_set_me_up_with_your_path_server_fo.com> wrote > in message news:Xns9136340F57AFEjfk2jfkmusiccom at 166.90.181.12... > > > nornny11Oct 11, 2001, 9:02am
Actually, when we last debated where AW makes their money, it was somehow
reached that their corporate sponserships from companies like Juno, NetTaxi, P3DJ, and so forth is where the money is. The basis of this, and confirmation of this, was that if WE were giving AW most of its money, we wouldn't be in this situation. ;) Ergo, we're down there below Corporate America in the food chain, so things have to get done. ;) basically, Flagg prolly ignored you because he doesn't sit around in an office all day playing ActiveWorlds. He's not a typical AW citizen, he's a working citizen when on AW, so sure, out of 100 or so telegrams he recieves every 5 minutes, you could try until Armageddon, but NO AW staffer is going to answer them all. You need to call, email persistently, or some other form. Mail always worked too. They're not neglecting you, they're trying NOT to neglect others first. Nornny [View Quote] sw chrisOct 11, 2001, 1:59pm
And how exactly do you get a substantial amount of people of whom you have
no contact with to do that? This has been done before and failed. Personally I think any reason to attempt to do this is stupid. You would be shooting yourself in the foot. There are much better ways to get a business to accommodate a customer. I.e. Better Business Bureau. -- SW Chris Eagle Scout, Philosopher, Peacemaker, and... Kung Fu Master? http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html "rpg helper" <noneasyet at jfk2_please_set_me_up_with_your_path_server_fo.com> [View Quote] flaggOct 11, 2001, 3:12pm
Dear Insanity and Peace walker,
Thank you for taking the time to read this post. When you contacted me via telegram regarding the problem you had on the web-site I explained to you that you needed to contact Noelle as she was the one who would be responsible for helping you with your problem. Now I apologize that I was not able to help, but at that time I was working on another project that required my full attention. I do from time to time provide support for people via telegram and I have done so for you on a few occasions, but telegram support is not a service we offer. When a member of Activeworlds staff provides support via telegram they are doing so voluntarily. I as a staff member of Activeworlds get many, many telegrams per hour and I do not respond to all of them, but usually when someone asks for help I do point them in the right direction, which is what I did for you. You e-mailed Noelle and told her that you had encountered a error on our site. Noelle replied to you within 3 hours of your sending her a e-mail. In my opinion her response to you was very satisfactory based on the information you had given her. If you had responded to that e-mail or called our office your problem would probably already be solved, in fact I will go as far to say that it would have probably been solved that same day. However, instead of responding to her you e-mailed me with a complaint regarding our service. Due to the fact that your complaint was sent late afternoon on a Friday I did not see it until early Monday morning, but at that time it was already to late as you had sent another complaint in far more detail covering many other things some of which had nothing to do with our billing system or the problem you had encountered. I have noted all the issues you mentioned and am working to address the ones we agree are important at this time. Now I would like to take this moment to answer a couple of the concerns here in our newsgroup so that the community that has been following this thread knows where Activeworlds stands on some of the issues you have raised. Activeworlds.com has a new web-site. This site deploys many new features and still has many new features to come. Whenever any company tries things that they have not done before it is extremely possible that there may be unexpected problems. When these problems occur we appreciate and need the help our rational and patient customers give us. We do not plan these problems to get more money from our customers. The fact is that problems like these cause us to loose customers. The double billing that occurred on our site happened when a customer would repeatedly click the refresh button on there browser because they believed the transaction was not going through. In fact the transaction was going through and when the refresh button was hit it would send the hole transaction through again. We are actively working with the around 10 customers we know of who had this problem to ensure that they are credited for any over payment we received. Most of these cases are already resolved and the problem on our site has been fixed. There where some other issues on the site regarding trial world data and orders that did not go through. The order problem should be fixed now and we are working to resolve the issue regarding trial world data over weekends. As for us accepting credit card information via e-mail. It is up to the customers of Activeworlds how they want to provide us with billing information. You were given several choices and were not forced in any way to provide your billing info via e-mail. I have many customers who's preferred choice of communication for billing info is e-mail and in fact I have used e-mail to provide my own billing information to other companies. I feel e-mail is safe enough for me and choose to leave it up to the customer as to what methods they prefer and trust. Obviously if I did not trust a company I was doing business with I would either not do business with them or pay them through a method like "money order" to ensure my consumer safety. I would like to thank you all again for taking the time to read this post. I will not respond on this specific issue again in these newsgroups so please direct any concerns or questions you have regarding anything I have stated to me at Tom at activeworlds.com. Sincerely Tom Fournier Customer Service / Sales Manager Activeworlds.com Inc. 95 Parker St. Newburyport, MA 01950 www.activeworlds.com peace walkerOct 11, 2001, 4:12pm
--------------AE3FE324B4B6200103A3F88F
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom, Thank you for taking the time to write. I would like to point out that although your opinion is that Noelle properly handled the situation it is you who helped it fail and continue to do so. Date: 09-28-01 Time: 12:59AM CST To: support at activeworlds.com Subject: bad renewal form Cc: Hello, I went to renew my world and the renewal form gave me error 'failed Dial'. Please notify me when you have your site fixed. This happened to another user as well. Thank you Lars That is a copy of the email which I sent immediately after my credit card went into error because of AWcom's site failure. Please note it states other users as well. Now to this date, that e-mail has never been responded to. Had it been... the site would have been fixed prior to the many people getting overbilled etc. That letter is dated 9-28-01. Now, cut the crap on the privilege I had of you responding to my telegrams. You are an employee of AWcom and from the corporate office you telegramed back and forth to me regarding the error and the details of it. It was you who failed to pass that information on to Noelle and expected me to repeat all the information. I had informed you I was ending my 12 work shift. I hardly need to waste time repeating myself. I notified you who are in the position of customer care. I DID my part! That is YOUR Failure as an AWcom Representative. Is it that hard to see that you contribute to AW's negligence when you begin to decide what is privilege response from you and what is normal customer service? The result that I see is that on 9-28-01 two customers I know had their credit information poorly handled by AWcom. The following week more customers had been hurt by the same site. All during that time you were using your opinion to ignore my original notices as well as my courtesy follow up that Thursday. I contacted you as well as support several times during that week. Now those failed responses results in customers being overdrawn now... That represents AWcom's Answer? That hurts the customer. That is the reason this problem went on for over ten days. I also know of a customer who HAS phoned you and who HAS NOT been reimbursed by you. I am not here to harm AWcom. I am only trying to see that attitudes such as your remarks concerning telegram contact only help to break down the company and it's customer care or lack there of. There is never an excuse to ignore a serious problem, ever! Money problems on the site is a serious problem! I operate a successful business of providing internet service which includes a large 3D division within AW. You are very aware that we host many worlds for many customers from around the globe. Daily I hear from world owners as well as new customers inquiring about worlds. I hear their cries all too often. So when I take the time out of my day... time that normally goes to filling the gaps of AW's support... much of which I hear goes un-answered... I expect that AW would be interested in hearing the facts from outside their own little shell. But you have shown me in your own words. In your opinion it was handled satisfactory! In my opinion and the opinion of the many it affected... the losses caused by your ways are very UN-satisfactory... And your opinion that a Company should be as unconscious of customer safety as to recommend and endorse the sending of Credit Card data over unsecured sources.... well that is showing a huge amount of ignorance and neglect on the part of AWcom with you as their representative. I would think your merchant account would be closed if they heard your recommendation! They require that security measures be taken for credit approvals without the presence of customer or card! Based on your statements... the whole Net should do away with SSL and give up all the secure servers and browser encryption's. Flagg says it's SAFE to send your Credit Card via open e-mail... Hey MicroSoft, Hey Netscape... You wasted Millions $$$$ on secure sockets and encryption!!!! Flagg knows more than all the experts and releases to press that e-mail is good enough!!!! This all could have been much easier had AWcom acknowledged their e-mails and the fact there was a problem at the beginning. Many people would have been saved the troubles that your disregards caused. It appears rather than apologize for the error in judgments you choose to flame and make me look bad... All I did was take it to the public eye to insure change would come about... I am glad to see from your post that certain issues are now being dealt with... I hope this brings on some oversight in the future so others can be safer doing business with AWcom. A customer based company's most valuable resource is the customers... try not to forget that... I am not the bad guy... just the one willing to step out and speak for the little people who get hurt... Peace, health & healing to all... InSaNiTy http://worldhosting.heartfall.com http://pathservices.heartfall.com [View Quote] > Dear Insanity and Peace walker, > > Thank you for taking the time to read this post. > > When you contacted me via telegram regarding the problem you had on the > web-site I explained to you that you needed to contact Noelle as she was the > one who would be responsible for helping you with your problem. > > Now I apologize that I was not able to help, but at that time I was working > on another project that required my full attention. I do from time to time > provide support for people via telegram and I have done so for you on a few > occasions, but telegram support is not a service we offer. When a member of > Activeworlds staff provides support via telegram they are doing so > voluntarily. I as a staff member of Activeworlds get many, many telegrams > per hour and I do not respond to all of them, but usually when someone asks > for help I do point them in the right direction, which is what I did for > you. > > You e-mailed Noelle and told her that you had encountered a error on our > site. Noelle replied to you within 3 hours of your sending her a e-mail. > In my opinion her response to you was very satisfactory based on the > information you had given her. If you had responded to that e-mail or > called our office your problem would probably already be solved, in fact I > will go as far to say that it would have probably been solved that same day. > However, instead of responding to her you e-mailed me with a complaint > regarding our service. Due to the fact that your complaint was sent late > afternoon on a Friday I did not see it until early Monday morning, but at > that time it was already to late as you had sent another complaint in far > more detail covering many other things some of which had nothing to do with > our billing system or the problem you had encountered. I have noted all the > issues you mentioned and am working to address the ones we agree are > important at this time. > > Now I would like to take this moment to answer a couple of the concerns here > in our newsgroup so that the community that has been following this thread > knows where Activeworlds stands on some of the issues you have raised. > > Activeworlds.com has a new web-site. This site deploys many new features > and still has many new features to come. Whenever any company tries things > that they have not done before it is extremely possible that there may be > unexpected problems. When these problems occur we appreciate and need the > help our rational and patient customers give us. We do not plan these > problems to get more money from our customers. The fact is that problems > like these cause us to loose customers. The double billing that occurred on > our site happened when a customer would repeatedly click the refresh button > on there browser because they believed the transaction was not going > through. In fact the transaction was going through and when the refresh > button was hit it would send the hole transaction through again. We are > actively working with the around 10 customers we know of who had this > problem to ensure that they are credited for any over payment we received. > Most of these cases are already resolved and the problem on our site has > been fixed. > > There where some other issues on the site regarding trial world data and > orders that did not go through. The order problem should be fixed now and > we are working to resolve the issue regarding trial world data over > weekends. > > As for us accepting credit card information via e-mail. It is up to the > customers of Activeworlds how they want to provide us with billing > information. You were given several choices and were not forced in any way > to provide your billing info via e-mail. I have many customers who's > preferred choice of communication for billing info is e-mail and in fact I > have used e-mail to provide my own billing information to other companies. > I feel e-mail is safe enough for me and choose to leave it up to the > customer as to what methods they prefer and trust. Obviously if I did not > trust a company I was doing business with I would either not do business > with them or pay them through a method like "money order" to ensure my > consumer safety. > > I would like to thank you all again for taking the time to read this post. > I will not respond on this specific issue again in these newsgroups so > please direct any concerns or questions you have regarding anything I have > stated to me at Tom at activeworlds.com. > > Sincerely > > Tom Fournier > Customer Service / Sales Manager > Activeworlds.com Inc. > 95 Parker St. > Newburyport, MA 01950 > > www.activeworlds.com --------------AE3FE324B4B6200103A3F88F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Hello Tom, Thank you for taking the time to write. I would like to point out that although your opinion is that Noelle properly handled the situation it is you who helped it fail and continue to do so. <b></b> <p><b>Date: 09-28-01</b> <br><b>Time: 12:59AM CST</b> <br>To: support at activeworlds.com <br>Subject: bad renewal form <br>Cc: <br>Hello, <br>I went to renew my world and the renewal form gave me <b>error 'failed Dial'.</b> <br><b>Please notify me when you have your site fixed. This happened to another user as well.</b> <br>Thank you <br>Lars <p>That is a copy of the email which I sent immediately after my credit card went into error because of AWcom's site failure. Please note it states other users as well. Now to this date, that e-mail has never been responded to. Had it been... the site would have been fixed prior to the many people getting overbilled etc. That letter is dated 9-28-01. <p>Now, cut the crap on the privilege I had of you responding to my telegrams. You are an employee of AWcom and from the corporate office you telegramed back and forth to me regarding the error and the details of it. It was you who failed to pass that information on to Noelle and expected me to repeat all the information. I had informed you I was ending my 12 work shift. I hardly need to waste time repeating myself. I notified you who are in the position of customer care. I DID my part! That is YOUR Failure as an AWcom Representative. Is it that hard to see that you contribute to AW's negligence when you begin to decide what is privilege response from you and what is normal customer service? The result that I see is that on 9-28-01 two customers I know had their credit information poorly handled by AWcom. The following week more customers had been hurt by the same site. All during that time you were using your opinion to ignore my original notices as well as my courtesy follow up that Thursday. I contacted you as well as support several times during that week. Now those failed responses results in customers being overdrawn now... That represents AWcom's Answer? That hurts the customer. That is the reason this problem went on for over ten days. I also know of a customer who HAS phoned you and who HAS NOT been reimbursed by you. <p>I am not here to harm AWcom. I am only trying to see that attitudes such as your remarks concerning telegram contact only help to break down the company and it's customer care or lack there of. There is never an excuse to ignore a serious problem, ever! Money problems on the site is a serious problem! <p>I operate a successful business of providing internet service which includes a large 3D division within AW. You are very aware that we host many worlds for many customers from around the globe. Daily I hear from world owners as well as new customers inquiring about worlds. I hear their cries all too often. So when I take the time out of my day... time that normally goes to filling the gaps of AW's support... much of which I hear goes un-answered... I expect that AW would be interested in hearing the facts from outside their own little shell. But you have shown me in your own words. In your opinion it was handled satisfactory! In my opinion and the opinion of the many it affected... the losses caused by your ways are very UN-satisfactory... <p>And your opinion that a Company should be as unconscious of customer safety as to recommend and endorse the sending of Credit Card data over unsecured sources.... well that is showing a huge amount of ignorance and neglect on the part of AWcom with you as their representative. I would think your merchant account would be closed if they heard your recommendation! They require that security measures be taken for credit approvals without the presence of customer or card! Based on your statements... the whole Net should do away with SSL and give up all the secure servers and browser encryption's. Flagg says it's SAFE to send your Credit Card via open e-mail... Hey MicroSoft, Hey Netscape... You wasted Millions $$$$ on secure sockets and encryption!!!! Flagg knows more than all the experts and releases to press that e-mail is good enough!!!! <p>This all could have been much easier had AWcom acknowledged their e-mails and the fact there was a problem at the beginning. Many people would have been saved the troubles that your disregards caused. It appears rather than apologize for the error in judgments you choose to flame and make me look bad... All I did was take it to the public eye to insure change would come about... I am glad to see from your post that certain issues are now being dealt with... I hope this brings on some oversight in the future so others can be safer doing business with AWcom. A customer based company's most valuable resource is the customers... try not to forget that... I am not the bad guy... just the one willing to step out and speak for the little people who get hurt... <p>Peace, health & healing to all... <p>InSaNiTy <p><A HREF="http://worldhosting.heartfall.com">http://worldhosting.heartfall.com</A> <br><A HREF="http://pathservices.heartfall.com">http://pathservices.heartfall.com</A> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> [View Quote] --------------AE3FE324B4B6200103A3F88F-- grimbleOct 11, 2001, 5:32pm
Grow up. How many times has this happended with AW? How many times has any
company made a mistake with an order? How many times has your bank screwed up your account, charging you the wrong amount. Fair Trade has nothing to do with clerical or user consumer errors. Its protection for the consumer against malicious practices. .... and as for "Ever think Grimble" .... idiot! [View Quote] |
