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Jul 8, 2001, 6:19am

Tonight we were looking at stars and i was thinking about the science
lessons about the big bang theory and how the universe is always expanding.
Well the I thought about it for a while and this is my question. It says the
universe expands infinently but, what is infinite. And how did it start if
there is nothing than how did something begin? i mean it is completly
illlogical you can form something out of nothing. This thought led me to
many other things that did nmot make since and now i hope you reply back and
try to make since of this to me please

I also thought of god, IF there is nothing than that means nothing
including god because there is nothing. I dont know if you are a big chuchy
try to tell me how god came from nothing. IT makes no since..


always wondering
\
snake

Jul 8, 2001, 7:03am

The universe is a mystery that boggles my brain. Its weird...just goes
forever and ever. Never stops. No way of knowing how it was created. The
universe goes forever. There are no boundaries or borders to it. It goes
and goes and goes. Never stops. The galaxy we are in occupies 0% of the
universe. That means there HAS to be other life since it is so big. It's
weird thinking about other life on other planets, isn't it? You have to
wonder where they stand technology wise. What kinds of different diseases
they have. Government, if any. It's something your mind could ponder for
your lifetime but no relevant info could be gathered since there is no way
of knowing about other life. The only way is if we build something that is
capable of travelling anywhere in the universe.

As for the god thing, don't even go into it because it is a way too
sensitive of a topic to discuss as everyone has their own opinions and
religions.

Good topic. :-)
--
Syntax
syntax at swcity.net
www.swcity.net

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Jul 8, 2001, 8:08am

Makes no sense trying to understand it. The mere fact that we are even here to
think and ponder these things is an enigma in itself. Trying to figure out why
this is even all here at all and what made all of this is something that will
drive you to the point of insanity to try and comprehend. It's just all here and
it just all is. To not believe in 1 thing means you can't believe in anything
else. If you can think it, it is real. Just as real as anything else, wether it
be God or no God. What you think is real. All things are real and everything is
possible. The only limitations are those we put on ourselves. The things we are
capable of are as infinite as time and the universe itself. Knowing everything
is not as important as getting thru this life and learning the things we must do
to become better spiritual beings in this physical expierience, because we are
pure energy. I'll say it again. Everything is possible and to believe 1 thing is
not possible, means you can't believe in anything at all. Everything is possible
wether you want to believe it or not. Chucks Party :)

Jul 8, 2001, 1:03pm

Its fairly simple really... there is a law of physics that is...

absolutely nothingness gives birth to a god

gods can create anything by deciding to, including other gods or matter

one god, sick of doing the same old creation of other gods and matter,
thought wouldn't it be fun to shove a few billion other gods into meat
bodies, hence... earth!

Regards, Justin



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Jul 8, 2001, 2:06pm

And now they all sit around, beer in hand watching and laughing their asses off at us
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Jul 8, 2001, 2:28pm

Actually, there was a very interesting article in TIME magazine a little while back about the latest theories as to the creation,
age and future doom of the universe, complete with fun stuff like dark matter. thee measurements of triangles and a TIMELINE that
shows the universe's lifespan from big bang to the beginning of it's final stages (according to this theory it will last
indefinitely, but that doesn't mean that stuff will be as lively as it is now)
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Jul 8, 2001, 3:54pm

Avoiding it altogether doesn't help things either. Sometimes it's good to
talk about religion, like for instance when the conversation is limited to
2-4 people. Other times it's not, like that whole fiasco 'survey' at AW GZ
last week.

SW Chris

Jul 8, 2001, 3:57pm

lol. nice hypothesis.

SW Chris

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Jul 8, 2001, 4:00pm

And pigs can fly. :) Well, maybe when their evolution reaches its
climax...

But you're right about one thing. It really does make no sense trying to
understand it all. Some things you just have to take on faith. And I guess
depending on which faith you hail from, all things could be possible. You
never know...

SW Chris

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Jul 8, 2001, 4:02pm

Who says there was nothing before the first mention of God? Certainly we'll
never know in our measly short lifespans.

SW Chris

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Jul 8, 2001, 10:03pm

[View Quote] Talk to XelNaga about God...

Jul 9, 2001, 2:52am

A couple of things on the universe question, the universe will not
neccessarily expand to infinity....think about it, the amount of
planets/start in the universe is immense....therefor logically there is also
a massive amount of gravity being exherted. The outer edges of the universe
would weight significantly less than the gravitational pull being given off
by the planets in the middle, (logically this would mean everything would be
being pulled inwards). But then the original push exherted by the big bang
would need to be accounted for (which would throw everything off), but since
the planets and stars in the universe are constantly getting smashed apart,
into smaller peices, the weight is much more easily spread out. All of this
would cause the universe to get to a point where all the gravity given of by
the more inward planets would pull everything back together again. So infact
we would again end up with a big mass of "stuff" (for the absence of a
better word) like the one at the begining of the universe. Now that ponders
the question "Was there a universe before the big bang? Did it blow up, get
sucked back together and blow up again causing our universe?"

And the ending of the universe.....well the pure idea of infinity is a man
made idea, think about it, if you go out far enough into space, to the point
where infact none of the debree of our big bang has reached yet, nor any
light given off by any star or planet.....what do u have? Nothing, extreme
nothingness. So does that mean the universe is there too? What colour is
everything? is it black, white, rainbow? No, because it is nothing. There is
nothing there and IMO that is where the universe ends.

But i will leave u with the point, if the only reason we can see planets
through a telelescope is from the light they give off, which takes time to
get here, if we look far enough does that mean we can see the begining of
the universe??




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Jul 9, 2001, 3:54am

This theory does all well and good, if you buy into the theory of evolution.
There are other theories out there that are just as sound as evolution, or
better.

SW Chris

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Jul 9, 2001, 5:22am

I'm starting not to believe in evolution-Humans are doing the exact opposite, getting dumber. And not over periods of generations
either *sigh*
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Jul 9, 2001, 5:08pm

Inbreeding was a bad institution for the aristocratic royalty of the past to
implement. ;) Now look what happened. Generations later, we get people
like... Bill Clinton, who didn't realize he inhaled. >:) Hey, I gotta make
a Bill Clinton crack here at least once.

SW Chris

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Jul 10, 2001, 3:14am

I know you feel like you really exist.
Like you're some sort of individual entity.
You have hopes, dreams, a future, a past.

But the concept of time is a psychological illusion. The beginning and the
end are one in the same. There was no start, and there will be no end. All
that is, simply is.

Matter. Energy. Arbitrary definitions of different states of the same thing.
Everything. Nothing.
Mass, volume, density -- all concepts which exist only for the fragile mind.
Concepts which are based solely on how different types of 'energy' interact
with each other as far as human minds can perceive.

Have you ever watched ants? Flies? Insects of any sort. They have no
consciousness, we say. What does that mean? It means they are automatons --
they have no concept of reality, no concept of existence, only a simple
program, reactions to their sensory input.

How can there be no time, if I am here, now? How can there be no time, where
would the present be? Where am I? You are not.

You are nothing but a 'program'. If you could ever get past your basic human
associations and biological responses to take a look, you might notice the
simple patterns that all human behavior follows. Conversation, daily
activities, the constant need to "progress." We are simply complex machines,
given the illusion of life to ourselves, the illusion of time to retain the
sanity of the mind, and to allow it to carry out its task -- to expand, to
grow, to gain knowledge. Infinitely. You were born, and you died. In between
these two lines of 'code,' you digested information, you changed countless
portions of the energy flow of reality. But you are nothing but a small
segment of the chain of reality, following the pattern built into you, and
in reality, changed nothing, as change cannot exist without time (can it? Or
is the human mind still limiting even me?).

1. -1. 1. -1. Sin(x). Circle. All things flow around, even thought. Try as
you might, you will only ever reach two points, though each time your mind
may interpret these points differently, feeling as though some goal has been
reached, something achieved. Your biological nature disguises the extreme
simplicity of the flow, covering it with the smaller patterns which exist on
smaller scales, all still working on the simple basis of the circle.

Every religion known to man, every philosophy, every scholar... Whether they
know it or not, THIS was their point, the basis of their argument. We've all
been on the same side the whole time.

AND WE'VE NEVER GONE ANYWHERE BUT AROUND IN CIRCLES.



Too depressing for your state? Keep this in mind.... at least you can enjoy
it, and at least you have the ability to perceive yourself. It's an
experience you shouldn't be so quick to toss aside.

Where is God? God is simply another word for the flow, the infinite (not to
mention fractal) pattern of all energy. You are God's subroutine, perhaps.
If the universe can perceive itself, perhaps it has quite the story to tell.
Maybe, once your program terminates, you will once again become the One, the
All, the flow, the wave. Or maybe .....
while(1){.you..are..here..} -- It's all a
matter of perspective



Break the cycles, even if it may be futile.

[Any of this interest anyone? Let me know... I love to rant.]

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Jul 10, 2001, 5:57am

that is *very* interesting

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Jul 11, 2001, 1:58am

It is interesting. I guess there is hope for General.Discussion! It's
fascinating to hear everyone's perspective on this topic.

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Jul 11, 2001, 1:19pm

So far, this ng is closer to some virtual garbage can. You may find anything
including good stuff ..by chance. The real point being it has been set up to
"protect" AW 'community' (uh uh uh!) topic ng, and no matter aapears to be
much more interesting....relatively..
But of course if you feel like discussing of any topic without the threat to
be censored by assholes who may consider even this garbage ng is too much
freedom, you'll find other places where to express yourself with much more
respect to your opinion. I'm not giving any coords here. It's not a shameless
self promotion thingy. Just think, dare and explore... if you are still able
to do it...

[View Quote] > It is interesting. I guess there is hope for General.Discussion! It's
> fascinating to hear everyone's perspective on this topic.
>
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Jul 12, 2001, 12:50am

Freedom is only a state of mind. As long as people must work to pay taxes on
things they rightly own, people will never be free. The only free people in this
world are the ones who owe nothing to no one and own all they have and don't pay
anyone anything to house them or keep them. These people are probably the
poorest people on Earth, but they know what it is to be free and are probably
more happy spiritualy and mentally knowing all they have done that day
benefitted no one except the people that live exactly the way they do. No big
hands in small pockets as we are all most acustomed to in modern civilization.
For modern civilization, freedom is a thing of the past.


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Jul 14, 2001, 3:02am

Actually , there are several therories on this .
One is that tho' we percieve the universe as extending straight out from any
given point , and seeming to have no start or end points ,
it's believed that space is more like a crumpled up piece of paper. choose
any point on the piece of crumplaed paper and you'll see that
it is in contact with one or more other points on that paper , which are
actually located on different parts of that paper.

It's this therory that many sci-fi writers have based the space travel
technology of thier book(s) , The possibility of crossing
from Point A to Point B in a very short time , when normally these points
may be trillions of parsecs away.

Another therory is that space curves inward on itself . So if you were to
choose a direct and travel straight in that direct ,
you would eventually end up back where you started at .


Ponder That . <eg>



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Jul 14, 2001, 3:17am

[View Quote] The theory is , I belive , that it's possible , If you go far out enough ,
beyond the farthest galaxy , to catch up to the first rays of light to have
existed.
The next problem would be photon dispersion , you'd have to have a way of
focusing light that's spread over roughly 15 billion light years per pixel
(figuratively speaking) .

Good Luck :-P

Jul 20, 2001, 12:42pm

Screw on-topic posts. Mudpie *et al* gunna bury AW anyway.

Yeah, I love to rant too.

The *multiverse* has time and space as part of it's solution -- so there's no "something from nothing" problem which is often used
to justify God. What is the multiverse? I will explain: the universe is a solution of the extremization of a Lagrangian (ya don't
hafta know what that means) and there are MANY such solutions; the multiverse is the class of all such solutions. Each time
elementary particles interact there are numerous outcomes to which we can only assign a probability (the Heisenburg Uncertainty
Principle). So there are gazillion universes branching off whenever and wherever interactions occur.

So the next problem: how do we "know" which universe to "follow"? Well, we follow them ALL. Consciousness is time-linear so we can
only perceive one path at a "time". The problem is the same as the problem "why am I me and not you" or the damn cockroach I just
squashed. And the answer is the same: I AM you and the cockroach that I'm scraping off my shoe. I get to be everybody and to follow
every path. So do you -- after all you ARE me. But when you get to be that cockroach you have no idea that you once were 3580 --
hell cockroaches can't even count. And "when" and "were" don't have any meaning either.

Another solution to the problem is that I am the only conscious creature in the universe. We call peeps who believe this
*sociopaths* -- they used to be called *criminal psychopaths*. Times change.

Another rant concerns the extremely naive assumption beloved by scifi fans that the multiverse is teaming with intelligent life.
After all if it only happened once in one universe we'd still be here talking about it. But I'll save that rant for another time.

--
billyat (Bill the Yat)
"if you don't like polls -- LIE TO THE POLSTERS"
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