Gotta Love Those "Customer" Interests... (Community)

Gotta Love Those "Customer" Interests... // Community

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goober king

May 20, 2001, 11:54pm
I was skimming through the AW 3.2 page that's on the Help site,
(http://www.activeworlds.com/help/aw32) and noticed that, once again,
AWCom could give two shits about us, the customer. Just look at these
"nifty" features they plan to offer:

"Version 3.2 is going to be first and foremost about supporting NT 4.0.
The lack of support for NT 4.0 has been a big obstacle preventing wider
adoption of our 3.x platform, as NT 4.0 is still by far the dominant OS
in the corporate world."

"The 3.2 browser has greatly enhanced firewall support to enable use in
corporate environments. The 3.2 browser is able to make use of an
existing internet proxy server to "tunnel" through a firewall and
contact the AW servers."

"The 3.2 browser supports a new universe attribute, a universe-wide
welcome message. This is a text message similar to the world welcome
message, except that it is seen by all visitors to the universe no
matter where they start. Also, changes to this message are seen
immediately by all users, so it provides a useful mechanism for making
important universe-wide announcements."

Now, exactly how many people in here use AW in a "corporate
environment"? And how many of us own and operate Universes? I realize
there *are* people who use NT 4.0 in here, but they seem to be in the
minority. (At least among average customers...) "Corporate environment"
essentially translates to "people who can give us more money". Since we
only shill out $20 a year, we obviously aren't important enough, even
though citizenships are the bulk of AWCom's budget and, without us,
AWCom would cease to exist. Also blatantly absent from their list of
features are anything that's ever been suggested in the Wishlist
newsgroups. I don't recall anyone asking for Universe-wide messages or
skyboxes. Does anyone from AWCom even read the damn NG?

I've also noticed a rather disturbing trend as years and AW versions
have gone by. Instead of focusing on development of the browser itself,
AWCom has started focusing more and more on what I call "fluff". Sure,
skyboxes and rotate and move commands are all well and good, but the
actual AW browser itself hasn't significantly changed since v2.1! What
happened to being able to block telegrams? Or how about sorting
telegrams as well as the teleport list? Or any of the other millions of
ideas that have been posted in Wishlist for the past 4 *years*!? Once
again, AWCom has turned a blind eye to what us, their supposedly
"cherished" customers, want, and instead are trying to develop what they
think all the corporate hotshots will want.

Now, I *know* Facter and Lucrezia (and maybe even Flagg) will read this;
they read everything in this NG. So, boys and girls of AWCom, I'm
effectively "calling you out". You have a week to respond to this and
tell us why it is that our requests as customers are being constantly
ignored before I start spamming every email address on the AWCom roster.
And I won't stop until I get an answer from *someone*. And I don't want
the usual "Well, I'll mention it to the other guys and we'll see what we
can do" runaround. You've pulled that line *way* too many times and
nothing has been done about customer concerns.

So pony up, kiddies. What's the dilly=o?

--
Goober King
Hey Agent1, think I can borrow your "annoying" skillz? :)
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

jfk2

May 21, 2001, 12:11am
Well... If you travel all over the universes like i do & have a cit account
in most of them like i do... YOU will quickly realize that all of the other
universes all came from big momma = AW. So is it any wonder why AW is making
it more attractive to host your own UNIVERSE... Just think about that...
Your own universe where you can have all your worlds bot copied from each other
but still have them unique in some way without offending anyine...
[Like NewYok & Broadway Worlds did]
But in YOUR OWN UNIVERSE... you can allow for anything to happen...
Heck... If i was rich enough i too would start my own universe...
AND one of the first things i would have in there....
Would be a bot copy of Broadway World [But without Just In or OneSummer
to make a stink] and have it set to several hundred people and make that the
HUGE universal landing & building world... Hmmmmm And that would have the
New Years Ball Drop world... And the entertainment world HQ's for everything.
Center of all the universe... That makes for a very nice universe attraction...
But all of these universes use the same browser... AW Browser still...
How interesting...


goober king <rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote in
<3B0875FE.2C26D8A3 at acsu.buffalo.edu>:

>I was skimming through the AW 3.2 page that's on the Help site,
>(http://www.activeworlds.com/help/aw32) and noticed that, once again,
>AWCom could give two shits about us, the customer. Just look at these
>"nifty" features they plan to offer:

sw comit

May 21, 2001, 12:35am
hehe, call 'em up Goober ^_^

Frankly I'm tired of their BS. They seem to wanting to see how close their
business can get to the dirt (bankrupt) and still live =\

I *still* stand by my solution: fixing up Alphaworld, not the software
(though both would be nice).

--
SW Comit
swcomit at swcity.net
Mayor of SW City
http://www.swcity.net
President of Community Linkage Commission
http://comlinkage.tripod.com


[View Quote]

ananas

May 21, 2001, 1:49am
Count one NT for me. NT is still the most popular professional
windows in germany, the newer ones had (and still have) a very
bad press in most technical PC magazines.

[View Quote] --
"_
|
/\
\ /
__/ /_

eep

May 21, 2001, 3:11am
What I don't get is why NT4 can't run DirectX 7, which I had running FINE with 4x4 Evo about 6 months ago...

[View Quote] > Count one NT for me. NT is still the most popular professional
> windows in germany, the newer ones had (and still have) a very
> bad press in most technical PC magazines.
>
[View Quote]

moria

May 21, 2001, 6:01am
[View Quote] >
> Now, exactly how many people in here use AW in a "corporate
> environment"?

more than the few people who post here regularly, a lot more:)

> And how many of us own and operate Universes?

more than you realise:)

> I realize
> there *are* people who use NT 4.0 in here, but they seem to be in the
> minority. (At least among average customers...)

average customers being what? the few that continue in here or the ones
that actually use the software?

"Corporate environment"
> essentially translates to "people who can give us more money". Since we
> only shill out $20 a year, we obviously aren't important enough, even
> though citizenships are the bulk of AWCom's budget and, without us,
> AWCom would cease to exist.

figures please to support this. the smallest galaxy sale will easily bring
in more revenue than the few people that post here. Its easy in this
newsgroup to think that if everyone agrees then thats a majority, but with
about 15 regular posters, this group is an incredibly small minority. Its
much smaller than any one universe, let alone the number of AW users.

> Also blatantly absent from their list of
> features are anything that's ever been suggested in the Wishlist
> newsgroups. I don't recall anyone asking for Universe-wide messages or
> skyboxes. Does anyone from AWCom even read the damn NG?

Actually the skyboxes thing was discussed in here ad-infinitum with a
request, although it was from a different perspective, its a possible
solution to the problem that was discussed in here and may or may not be a
good thing.. depends on the implementation.

Universe messages is an excellent feature and should have been in ages ago.
AW is probably the only system like this that hasn't got a full broadcast
facility. There also needs to be an across universe broadcast for things
like maintenance, where miltiple universes exist on the same server etc.

>
> I've also noticed a rather disturbing trend as years and AW versions
> have gone by. Instead of focusing on development of the browser itself,
> AWCom has started focusing more and more on what I call "fluff". Sure,
> skyboxes and rotate and move commands are all well and good, but the
> actual AW browser itself hasn't significantly changed since v2.1! What
> happened to being able to block telegrams? Or how about sorting
> telegrams as well as the teleport list? Or any of the other millions of
> ideas that have been posted in Wishlist for the past 4 *years*!? Once
> again, AWCom has turned a blind eye to what us, their supposedly
> "cherished" customers, want, and instead are trying to develop what they
> think all the corporate hotshots will want.
>

again see my point above as to cherished customers. Corporates who pay for
features to be developed (like much of the stiff on 3.2) are far more likely
to get things done than users that have a hissy fit about I'll take my $20
away if they dont do what I want before anything else:)

The more this software appeals to corporate developers, the more likely it
is to survive. The more likely it is, that corporate users will have people
using their universes that people will find AW and become cits its a growing
circle. Theres far more benefit in attracting corporates and getting some
cits, that getting some cits and hoping they may get corporate universes.

In the world of reality, corporate HAS to be the way forward. Theres still
one problem though for corporate, and thats ability to cross between
universes using the standard browser.. we HAVE to get it so that this isn't
possible. Although theres ways to block that, its a pain. For full
corporate use, a universe has to be independant, and that has to happen
quickly. Its useless to rely on common decency.. after all, if your
walking down a street and theres a new house there would you just walk in?
Well many do on a new universe and its blatantly impolite. However, because
of that there has to be a way to block it and effectively. Most commercial
universes just don't want the average AW user in there when they are doing
business, and with server licenses possibly reaching hundreds of thousands
of dollars per annum, its a requirement that will be paid for:)


> Now, I *know* Facter and Lucrezia (and maybe even Flagg) will read this;
> they read everything in this NG. So, boys and girls of AWCom, I'm
> effectively "calling you out". You have a week to respond to this and
> tell us why it is that our requests as customers are being constantly
> ignored before I start spamming every email address on the AWCom roster.
> And I won't stop until I get an answer from *someone*. And I don't want
> the usual "Well, I'll mention it to the other guys and we'll see what we
> can do" runaround. You've pulled that line *way* too many times and
> nothing has been done about customer concerns.
>

Call them out, or have a hissy fit, or withhold your $20 whatever.. your
choice, just remember a corporate paying for features will win hands down :)

Moria

moria

May 21, 2001, 6:02am
I think you'll find its to force people into the WIN 2000 route

weve had to upgrade a number of machines to 2000 to get round this on the
corporate side since 98 wasn't an option. it was NT4 or 2000.

Moria

[View Quote]

goober king

May 21, 2001, 10:32am
I never said corporate money is a bad thing. I'm perfectly aware that
some big corporate sponsorships could easily keep AWCom afloat. The
problem I have is the fact that they've *consistently* ignored *current*
customer requests and concerns. It's as if they're saying "Ok, we've got
their $20. Who's next?" and you could fall off the face of the earth and
they wouldn't blink. It makes me wonder why they even bother to have a
Wishlist NG if they never plan on considering any of our ideas.

And when I say "customers" I don't just mean people in these newsgroups,
because I've seen AWCom's ignorance many times outside of these NGs as
well. Hell, look what we had to do just to get some objects added to the
AW Prime OP! We as customers shouldn't *have* to do that, that's AWCom's
job!

And just because a corporate sponsorship could easily replace a bunch of
$20 citizenships, the fact remains that citizenships make up a good
portion, if not the majority, of their income. Don't you think that
would mean that we would be rather high on their priority list?
Apparently not. When will they decide that they've finally have enough
corporate sponsors so they can concentrate on the citizens? From the
looks of things, never.

Tell ya what: Since it's obvious our piddly little $20 is nothing
compared to a corporate sponsorship, why not just get rid of the $20
fee? Citizenships have been free before, and they can be so again. It
certainly would solve a lot of problems. Besides completely erasing the
"tourist" concept and encouraging more folks to become citizens, it
would shut all us complainers up, because we would have no right to
complain. It's *because* I shell out $20 a year to fund this melting pot
that gives me the right to complain and, more importantly, the right to
be heard. If I'm not giving them any money, then I have no right to
complain, since money talks. No money, no talking.

[View Quote] --
Goober King
He's *always* in the minority: Citizens
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

moria

May 21, 2001, 11:28am
HIyas:))


[View Quote] <snipped loads to get to the main point:) >


> Tell ya what: Since it's obvious our piddly little $20 is nothing
> compared to a corporate sponsorship, why not just get rid of the $20
> fee? Citizenships have been free before, and they can be so again. It
> certainly would solve a lot of problems. Besides completely erasing the
> "tourist" concept and encouraging more folks to become citizens, it
> would shut all us complainers up, because we would have no right to
> complain. It's *because* I shell out $20 a year to fund this melting pot
> that gives me the right to complain and, more importantly, the right to
> be heard. If I'm not giving them any money, then I have no right to
> complain, since money talks. No money, no talking.
>

Tell ya what, lets look at it another way:)

whats it worth to have specific customer mods done for you?

Lets face it $20 a year is dirt cheap, and you get loads of features that
more than compensate for that $20.

EQ is $10 a month, and they dont listen to their users either, just the
corporates, and they are right mainly, its not a single user product:).

How about we make the citizenship a reasonable amount...

lets say you go in once a week, and lets say you spend $3 a week on
something you like like a beer or a magazine?

thats 52 x $3 for a weeks entertainment which is $156 a year. more
reasonable??

lets say you buy 2 mags a week or go for a couple of beers.. maybe $300 a
year

Yep. lets go for splitting it at $360 a year or $30 a month.. now at
those rates, the user base may be worth listening to. Although hardly, it
would need a majority to make it worth while. Remember though, it still
needs 30 citizens to equal the cost of the cheapest uniserver at $360 a year
citizenship. at $20 a year citizenship it needs 500 citizens.

Do you honestly think that someone who buys one beer a week is gonna be
listened to if they say.. hey I think you should change the recipie?

Do you think they should?

Do you think that someone who buys 365 beers a year should be listened to?
who knows.

What I can tell you is that in the corporate stakes $20 a year is zip.
nada.. nothing. A single license of $25,000 a year is listened to.

So if you want the power, you gotta pay the price.

You want stuff.. then money where mouth is.. pay up.. buy a big universe
or pay for amendments.. trust me with money you wont have a problem:)

Even if all the current users in this newsgroup said unanimously we want
abc.. 15-20 votes from a user base of some thousands is hardly a mind
blowing proportion.

However, what I would suggest is that if you really think you have something
that a real majority would like, and I mean something worth a thousand or so
votes.. by all means run a campaign for it:) Hell if I like it I'd support
it, but you gotta get a groundswell up front, and thats gotta be a lot
bigger than this small group in here:)

As to getting new objects into the OP, how many have you sent?

PS not having a go, just trying to get some realisation into this select
group of 15 we have here that $20 a year does not buy the company. it
allows you to use a product as is:)

However if you want to campaign for no citizen fee lets do that as well..In
some ways I agree with you.. lets drop the $20 but also lets drop the rest
that you get for that.. building under a cit number, telegrams, contact
lists etc etc .. lets just all be tourists then as you say its not a
problem, leave all that citizenship rubbish for the corporates who pay for
it:)

Remember, if it comes to getting 450 citizens to renew, or getting 1 person
to buy the cheapest uniserver, the change for 1 uniserver sale is going to
shout louder than a single change that 450 citizens agree on:)

Moria.

agent1 agent1

May 21, 2001, 11:50am
[View Quote] *Goes into 'Harass the Executive' mode* Maybe now I will write that long letter I was planning on...


-Agent1

facter facter@awsupport

May 21, 2001, 11:55am
Do you have *any* idea how many proxy/NT issues we have? They account for
anywhere up to 60% of all tech support issues....god I cant wait for it.

As for everything else..well, sorry, I'm not the one that makes decisions
and such, but, let me just ask you something - why, if we wernt interested
in the users opinions as to features as you are accusing us of, would we put
this up ? http://www.activeworlds.com/products/suggest.html - And let me
assure you, this page IS being compiled, and the results are interesting (I
have seen them), and future builds *will* be using results from that page
to help determine what will be in them.

So 3.2 is a more bones tech build, for supporting more platforms, and to
help the poor buggers that are stuck behind proxy servers (you have NO idea
how many people mail me with problems as to it, you really dont.. ).

You guys continuously thinking that things are apathetic around here in
regards to users, without actually looking at the initiatives that people
here *DO* make for the users - how about instead of just looking on your
side of the fence, you look at the things that we DO do for the users on the
resources we have available ?

F.


[View Quote]

agent1 agent1

May 21, 2001, 12:07pm
I think the reason people don't make much out of the suggestion box is that it is new and hasn't been tested out yet. Oh, and tell me this: why do you need to set up a new suggestion system when you've got a perfectly good newsgroup full of years of requests? The messages I've downloaded go back to 4/1/00 - the others seem to have been deleted.

I apreciate that firewall users are a major installed base, and you need to help them out. First with 3.1 and now with 3.2, the browser is having a couple of features implemented and then getting released. Some of the major features that people want might require a huge rewrite of most of the browser and some of the uniserver code, but once they're done, people will be happy that there were changes made that meant more than just being able to use OpenGL or use AW behind a firewall.
Hopefully, the next major release will be just that, version 4.0, and will have some important features requested from the citizens (as well as any corporate requests).

-Agent1


[View Quote]

icey

May 21, 2001, 12:41pm
You're doing great:)
icey

[View Quote]

wing

May 21, 2001, 12:50pm
Or you can take M$'s route with WinXP. Make it buggy as anything and force them to call your 1-900 phone number at $10 a minute to
be put on hold for a half hour so you can obtain authorization to use your copy of Windows again. Orrrrr you can just crack it. So
not only do they get $150-$1050 initially but hundreds more when you encounter a bug.
[View Quote]

wing

May 21, 2001, 12:52pm
[View Quote] Can't wait to be bored all day? Don't tell me you don't get sarcastic with some of the users after you've handled nineteen
consecutive IDENTICAL problems?

moria

May 21, 2001, 12:54pm
good plan.. forwarded to the suggestions box.. sounds good to me, will get
a good revenue return:)

Moria


[View Quote]

goober king

May 21, 2001, 2:23pm
*holds up hand* Hey, that's all I was looking for: an answer. Since it
seems that "our side of the fence" rarely gets told what's going on up
there in Newburyport, it's rather hard for us to judge AWCom accurately,
so we're left to make half-assed assumptions...

Oh well, I guess I should be greatful I got any response at all. If I
had tried this stunt a year ago, it'd prolly get ignored entirely.
You've satisfied this goober... for now. ;)

[View Quote] --
Goober King
Can't say the same for some *other* people here...
rar1 at acsu.buffalo.edu

eep

May 21, 2001, 5:48pm
450 citizens = $9000. If you're smart you won't simply brush them off, or the 1250 citizens ($25,000) who want particular features implemented. In case you haven't noticed, AW doesn't have that many citizens (currently "over 40,000") according to unproven universe stats (http://activeworlds.com/company/statistics.html). Now, granted, most people can't agree on what should be implemented first, but why does a single "user" (company, most likely) worth $25,000 dictate AW's development when MANY more $20 users are using AW MUCH more often and to a greater technical/creative degree? Where's the logic in that other than greed?

If anything you (AWCI) should be listening to older and more experienced AW users--people who KNOW AW better than AWCI does for the most part, including Roland--for AW's development future. Money doesn't make one intelligent or knowledgeable enough to know what features should be implemented next.

[View Quote] > Tell ya what, lets look at it another way:)
>
> whats it worth to have specific customer mods done for you?
>
> Lets face it $20 a year is dirt cheap, and you get loads of features that
> more than compensate for that $20.
>
> EQ is $10 a month, and they dont listen to their users either, just the
> corporates, and they are right mainly, its not a single user product:).
>
> How about we make the citizenship a reasonable amount...
>
> lets say you go in once a week, and lets say you spend $3 a week on
> something you like like a beer or a magazine?
>
> thats 52 x $3 for a weeks entertainment which is $156 a year. more
> reasonable??
>
> lets say you buy 2 mags a week or go for a couple of beers.. maybe $300 a
> year
>
> Yep. lets go for splitting it at $360 a year or $30 a month.. now at
> those rates, the user base may be worth listening to. Although hardly, it
> would need a majority to make it worth while. Remember though, it still
> needs 30 citizens to equal the cost of the cheapest uniserver at $360 a year
> citizenship. at $20 a year citizenship it needs 500 citizens.
>
> Do you honestly think that someone who buys one beer a week is gonna be
> listened to if they say.. hey I think you should change the recipie?
>
> Do you think they should?
>
> Do you think that someone who buys 365 beers a year should be listened to?
> who knows.
>
> What I can tell you is that in the corporate stakes $20 a year is zip.
> nada.. nothing. A single license of $25,000 a year is listened to.
>
> So if you want the power, you gotta pay the price.
>
> You want stuff.. then money where mouth is.. pay up.. buy a big universe
> or pay for amendments.. trust me with money you wont have a problem:)
>
> Even if all the current users in this newsgroup said unanimously we want
> abc.. 15-20 votes from a user base of some thousands is hardly a mind
> blowing proportion.
>
> However, what I would suggest is that if you really think you have something
> that a real majority would like, and I mean something worth a thousand or so
> votes.. by all means run a campaign for it:) Hell if I like it I'd support
> it, but you gotta get a groundswell up front, and thats gotta be a lot
> bigger than this small group in here:)
>
> As to getting new objects into the OP, how many have you sent?
>
> PS not having a go, just trying to get some realisation into this select
> group of 15 we have here that $20 a year does not buy the company. it
> allows you to use a product as is:)
>
> However if you want to campaign for no citizen fee lets do that as well..In
> some ways I agree with you.. lets drop the $20 but also lets drop the rest
> that you get for that.. building under a cit number, telegrams, contact
> lists etc etc .. lets just all be tourists then as you say its not a
> problem, leave all that citizenship rubbish for the corporates who pay for
> it:)
>
> Remember, if it comes to getting 450 citizens to renew, or getting 1 person
> to buy the cheapest uniserver, the change for 1 uniserver sale is going to
> shout louder than a single change that 450 citizens agree on:)

facter facter@awsupport

May 21, 2001, 6:30pm
[View Quote] Sarcastic? Not one bit, nor ever in the slightest, ever. Why would I do
something like that? And bored? do you actually have any idea what your
talking about ? I dont have time to be bored here...

F.

facter facter@awsupport

May 21, 2001, 6:34pm
[View Quote]
*shrugs* - because there was no way of compiling it into a proper list
maybe? The thing with the suggestions box, is that priority can be given to
suggestions, you can see how many people are asking for certain things
etc...the newsgroup is all over the place, god, *I* wouldnt want to wade
through it to try and get indicitive numbers, and i'm sure Roland doesnt.

>
> I apreciate that firewall users are a major installed base, and you need
to help them out. First with 3.1 and now with 3.2, the browser is having a
couple of features implemented and then getting released. Some of the major
features that people want might require a huge rewrite of most of the
browser and some of the uniserver code, but once they're done, people will
be happy that there were changes made that meant more than just being able
to use OpenGL or use AW behind a firewall.
> Hopefully, the next major release will be just that, version 4.0, and will
have some important features requested from the citizens (as well as any
corporate requests).

Well, thats what many of *us* hope as well. Frankly, the firewall & OpenGL
stuff *will* come in so much handy, because it DOES affect a *huge* portion
of the user-base, not a tiny fraction like some people would like to think.
But I, personally, hope for different features in the next version as well.
I see 3.2 as a technical upgrade, kind of like 3.0 was - 3.1 was more about
features than anything....so...yup. And yes, alot of the most wanted
features would involve a huge re-write I guess...

Facter.


> -Agent1
>
>
[View Quote]

facter facter@awsupport

May 21, 2001, 6:36pm
Shes right mate, I actually enjoy being able to let you guys know that its
not a total mess of conspiracy up here =)

Facter



[View Quote]

moria

May 21, 2001, 6:54pm
[View Quote] Agreed, but my point was that if 450 users are asking for something and 1
user comes along with the monetary equivalent of 1250 users and says we
would like abc before we pay, then the 1 customer is much more likely to get
it.

> or the 1250 citizens ($25,000) who want particular features implemented.
In case you haven't noticed, AW doesn't have that many citizens (currently
"over 40,000") according to unproven universe stats
(http://activeworlds.com/company/statistics.html). Now, granted, most people
can't agree on what should be implemented first, but why does a single
"user" (company, most likely) worth $25,000 dictate AW's development when
MANY more $20 users are using AW MUCH more often and to a greater
technical/creative degree? Where's the logic in that other than greed?
>

The logic is survival. to get one payment of $25k as opposed to hundreds at
$20 makes for a much more secure and cost effective route and a firmer
foundation for the future, and as has been proved in the past, even if 450
people ask for something and the company says no, only a trivial minority
will actually stop paying for it, so the hurt rate will be a lot less than
450 losses.

> If anything you (AWCI) should be listening to older and more experienced
AW users

In case you hadn't noticed eep, I am nothing to do with AWCI, or even AWCOM,
as you know.

>people who KNOW AW better than AWCI does for the most part,

That should read people who THINK they know AW better...

> including Roland--for AW's development future. Money doesn't make one
intelligent or knowledgeable enough to know what features should be
implemented next.
>

Agreed, money or lack of it has never been a proven intelligence guide, but
money does make decisions in everything. even down to I'm not gonna be a
citizen, its a rip off when asked for $20 :)) Maybe thats intelligent,
maybe not, but it happens.

The people that have been here longest don't always know whats best for the
future as aims and directions change. (see the silly protests about not
paying for citizenship when if it hadn't happened the whole of AW would have
closed. gone forever.)

I am not saying they are wrong, but most users dont have a global view of
what's needed for survival or whats happening across an entire company, much
though they might think they do. I know I don't know what the best thing
for AW is right now, but I believe its to head out into the corporate
market. I do know that many users see their own little world in AW or their
own needs and think thats the most important thing that has to happen in AW
when in fact its pretty trivial really:)

A few people asking for a new feature for free is ALWAYS gonna take second
place to a company saying we'll pay for what we want in every case.

The real world is not a charity.

I believe that AWCOM does a good job of trying to balance all the demands it
has, but I know for a fact that if I came along with a large license fee
sale, I would expect to get a much better response.. and surprisingly..
thats what happens:)

Moria

eep

May 21, 2001, 8:50pm
[View Quote] [View Quote] Did you miss when Rolu created his "Frequently Wished Wishes List"? He tallied votes for various things and everything. Did AWCI pay attention? Nope. Well, Rolu's long gone now and I've had my AW improvements page (http://tnlc.com/eep/aw/improve.html in case you didn't know or "forgot") for years now, which is based off Rolu's list and THE List™ (Roland's). Want a list? Open your fucking eyes...

> to help them out. First with 3.1 and now with 3.2, the browser is having a
> couple of features implemented and then getting released. Some of the major
> features that people want might require a huge rewrite of most of the
> browser and some of the uniserver code, but once they're done, people will
> be happy that there were changes made that meant more than just being able
> to use OpenGL or use AW behind a firewall.
> have some important features requested from the citizens (as well as any
> corporate requests).
>
> Well, thats what many of *us* hope as well. Frankly, the firewall & OpenGL
> stuff *will* come in so much handy, because it DOES affect a *huge* portion
> of the user-base, not a tiny fraction like some people would like to think.
> But I, personally, hope for different features in the next version as well.
> I see 3.2 as a technical upgrade, kind of like 3.0 was - 3.1 was more about
> features than anything....so...yup. And yes, alot of the most wanted
> features would involve a huge re-write I guess...

"I guess..."--you don't even know, Facter. Have you even talked to Roland about these so-called rewrites? I doubt it. You, I, and just about anyone else who knows what's going on knows that Rick and JP DICTATE (root word of "dictator", by the way) to Roland what to add to AW in the next version. And the elite fiew with lots of money (universe server customers) dictate to Rick and JP what they want. You guys don't give a shit about the BULK of your user base who actually use AW every day and FAR more intensely than uniserver customers or even AWCI itself. Now then, who do you think has a better idea of what should be added to AW? Think about it... Not even Roland uses AW enough to know--and he's the god damn lead programmer! That's just pathetic...

eep

May 21, 2001, 9:00pm
[View Quote] [View Quote] So, that still doesn't mean that 1 customer has the right to dictate AW's developmental direction.

> In case you haven't noticed, AW doesn't have that many citizens (currently
> "over 40,000") according to unproven universe stats
> (http://activeworlds.com/company/statistics.html). Now, granted, most people
> can't agree on what should be implemented first, but why does a single
> "user" (company, most likely) worth $25,000 dictate AW's development when
> MANY more $20 users are using AW MUCH more often and to a greater
> technical/creative degree? Where's the logic in that other than greed?
>
> The logic is survival. to get one payment of $25k as opposed to hundreds at
> $20 makes for a much more secure and cost effective route and a firmer
> foundation for the future, and as has been proved in the past, even if 450
> people ask for something and the company says no, only a trivial minority
> will actually stop paying for it, so the hurt rate will be a lot less than
> 450 losses.

That just proves AWCI is only in it for the money and that it couldn't give a shit about its EXISTING customers. Once they get that $25K they probably won't listen to that customer any more than they listen to their existing so-called "over 40,000 unique paid users". Open your eyes, Moria.

>
> In case you hadn't noticed eep, I am nothing to do with AWCI, or even AWCOM,
> as you know.

Well, I don't keep track of what your affiliations are month-to-month. You USED to work for then-COF (and perhaps AWCI) and you seem to be supporting them, so I'm talking to you as if you ARE working for them. Deal with it.

>
> That should read people who THINK they know AW better...

I've proven Roland wrong MANY times regarding what AW can do.

> intelligent or knowledgeable enough to know what features should be
> implemented next.
>
> Agreed, money or lack of it has never been a proven intelligence guide, but
> money does make decisions in everything. even down to I'm not gonna be a
> citizen, its a rip off when asked for $20 :)) Maybe thats intelligent,
> maybe not, but it happens.

Maybe it also doesn't warrant making developmental decisions.

> The people that have been here longest don't always know whats best for the
> future as aims and directions change. (see the silly protests about not
> paying for citizenship when if it hadn't happened the whole of AW would have
> closed. gone forever.)

Yes, but let's also consider then-COF saying AW would ALWAYS be free in that now-deleted I-forget-the-name-now (Trans-something perhaps) world chat log. Oh how quickly (and convienently) we (you and AWCI, really) forget, Moria...

> I am not saying they are wrong, but most users dont have a global view of
> what's needed for survival or whats happening across an entire company, much
> though they might think they do. I know I don't know what the best thing
> for AW is right now, but I believe its to head out into the corporate
> market. I do know that many users see their own little world in AW or their
> own needs and think thats the most important thing that has to happen in AW
> when in fact its pretty trivial really:)
>
> A few people asking for a new feature for free is ALWAYS gonna take second
> place to a company saying we'll pay for what we want in every case.

For free? Perhaps you missed the $20/year those people are paying. And, again, what if $25K worth of citizens (1250) ask?

> The real world is not a charity.

No reason to contribute to that delinquancy...

> I believe that AWCOM does a good job of trying to balance all the demands it
> has, but I know for a fact that if I came along with a large license fee
> sale, I would expect to get a much better response.. and surprisingly..
> thats what happens:)

And is precisely what should NOT happen. If this didn't just apply to the corporate world I wouldn't feel so passionate about it, but it also happens to the political world. Money is simply evil.

sw comit

May 21, 2001, 11:03pm
> Lets face it $20 a year is dirt cheap, and you get loads of features that
> more than compensate for that $20.
>
> EQ is $10 a month, and they dont listen to their users either, just the
> corporates, and they are right mainly, its not a single user product:).

Don't get me wrong here, but I wouldn't think EQ would have much concern
about customers considering they're probably make tons of money and have,
what, millions of users? AW seems like it's about to go broke and they have
only 335,797 accounts, with a significant number being multiple accounts
and/or expired. It would seem to be in their best interest to learn what we
want, you know? Just a thought ;)

moria

May 22, 2001, 4:39am
your really sad in your obsessional twist of reality:)

its obvious to see youve never run a buisiness, or would be able to:)

Moria


[View Quote]

facter facter@awsupport

May 22, 2001, 12:11pm
> Did you miss when Rolu created his "Frequently Wished Wishes List"? He
tallied votes for various things and everything. Did AWCI pay attention?
Nope. Well, Rolu's long gone now and I've had my AW improvements page
(http://tnlc.com/eep/aw/improve.html in case you didn't know or "forgot")
for years now, which is based off Rolu's list and THE ListT (Roland's). Want
a list? Open your fucking eyes...

Maybe if you wernt such a pain Eep, and wernt so pushy, and obnixious,
people here and around the community *would* actually pay more attention to
you and your suggestions. Just a word of free advice mate.

> "I guess..."--you don't even know, Facter. Have you even talked to Roland
about these so-called rewrites? I doubt it. You, I, and just about anyone
else who knows what's going on knows that Rick and JP DICTATE (root word of
"dictator", by the way) to Roland what to add to AW in the next version. And
the elite fiew with lots of money (universe server customers) dictate to
Rick and JP what they want. You guys don't give a shit about the BULK of
your user base who actually use AW every day and FAR more intensely than
uniserver customers or even AWCI itself. Now then, who do you think has a
better idea of what should be added to AW? Think about it... Not even Roland
uses AW enough to know--and he's the god damn lead programmer! That's just
pathetic...

...another reason no one takes you seriously is because you cant make a
comment without bringing the "Dark side" into it, or insulting people. You
dont work here, you dont know these people, you dont go to the meetings, and
you have absolutly NO idea as to what goes on here except the fantasies you
concoct in your mind, so you cant even begin to comment on anything here,
and, its far from a dictatorship Eep - you live in fantasy land...

As I said, stop being so obnoxious and maybe one day someone will pay you
the attention you may one day actually earn....

Gees, why did I even bother to reply to you.

F.

facter facter@awsupport

May 22, 2001, 12:13pm
> Don't get me wrong here, but I wouldn't think EQ would have much concern
> about customers considering they're probably make tons of money and have,
> what, millions of users? AW seems like it's about to go broke and they
have
> only 335,797 accounts, with a significant number being multiple accounts
> and/or expired. It would seem to be in their best interest to learn what
we
> want, you know? Just a thought ;)


God people. We're not going broke, we're not going bankrupt. Get over it
already.

F.

wing

May 22, 2001, 12:27pm
Maybe I or some other less "pushy and obnoxious" citizen should mirror this list which represents a great number of the things we
less "pushy and obnoxious" citizens want as well? Would you listen then?
[View Quote]

icey

May 22, 2001, 2:33pm
If I were you I wouldn't be so sure they don't...
icey

[View Quote]

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