Thread

Bots or Object Agents ? (Bots)

Bots or Object Agents ? // Bots

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jim fleming

Feb 5, 1999, 8:26am
People are calling for other ideas and types of bots.
I agree that there is a lot of potential beyond the
traditional mapping of a bot to a being that stands
around like the other human-like beings.

In order to invent other types of bots or uses, it might
help to first look at the AW Server as a simply a device
that helps to maintain a repository of "things" that
human users can easily see, touch and sometimes
modify via the AW Browser. Unlike some repositories
and databases, the AW Server has some 3 and 4
dimentionality to it. "Things" are placed in 3 space and
are time-stamped (time being the 4th dimension).

Bots or Object Agents can be used to all computers
and/or humans to interact with the shared object space
created in the AW Server. As I mentioned in my other
note on the SQL Bot, an obvious near term project
will be to have "bots" that can shuttle the information
from the AW Server to and from an SQL database
server. This has numerous applications.

Another thing bots can do is to provide various conversions
between the AW platform and other platforms in the
world. I will try to write about that separately, because
in some cases there may not be any AW Server objects
involved. As an example, a bot could take chat, buffer it
and post it to this newsgroup or e-mail it to people that do
not have access to AW.

....more to come...

Jim Fleming (Techno Cat)
UNIR, COM and UNETY worlds in AW

archon manus

Feb 5, 1999, 9:28pm
Let me know if I can help beta test the SQLbot :), it'd be very useful in
doing large scale transformations as well as providing a more standardized
software interface to any type of world creation/ modification/ backup/
duplication.

Archon Manus



[View Quote]

aw@ns1.vrx.net (activeworlds role account)

Feb 6, 1999, 4:52am
[View Quote] Why stop there? Have a process running on your desktop that
this email courier bot can talk to.

Imagine sitting at your desktop, working away or doing whatever,
but not having the AW browser open. Suddenly an small avatar from AW
appears on the bottom right of your screen, walks over to the
current active window and "says" a small message in a little
baloon thingy.

Thats how I'd like (urgent?) tele's delivered to me when I'm not
in the browser.


--
Richard Sexton (rs79)
richard at vrx.zoo, Bannockburn, Ontario, Canada, +1 (613) 473-1719

baudwalker

Feb 6, 1999, 9:05am
Microsoft Agents are already doing that. I have the agents reading my AW
text..A bit noisy though...OK where there is not too many people.

[View Quote]

jim fleming

Feb 6, 1999, 9:26am
[View Quote] Actually, that would just be a subset of the browser.
(i.e. a tele-only browser) This is another place where
the usage of the term "bot" gets fuzzy. We are really
talking about applications that run on your desk-top
and use the client access protocol to the AW platform.

With multiple applications running we should be able
to start creating a more seemless collection of
universes, galaxies and worlds.

Jim Fleming
UNIR, COM and UNETY worlds in AW

=?iso-8859-1?q?eep=b2?=

Feb 6, 1999, 7:56pm
Yes, please stop calling everything a bot; it's annoying! It's why I groaned when first reading the SDK description which mainly mentioned bots. I figured: "Oh, great, now everyone and their grandmother are gonna have stupid, annoying greeter bots." And what happened? Yup...those damn things are everywhere. I originally wanted Hambot for tumblin' tumbleweeds in Utah world, but the complicated scripting language turned me off to Hambot so I've never done anything with it since. Why most programmers feel the need to make everything TEXT-based is beyond me. Not everyone is textual; some are actually graphical! <gasp!> <eyeroll>

[View Quote] [View Quote]

grover

Feb 6, 1999, 8:35pm
Yeah! Why write programming languages that cater only to programmers? That'd be like giving an infant a book with no pictures <gasp!><eyeroll>

grover

[View Quote] > Yes, please stop calling everything a bot; it's annoying! It's why I groaned when first reading the SDK description which mainly mentioned bots. I figured: "Oh, great, now everyone and their grandmother are gonna have stupid, annoying greeter bots." And what happened? Yup...those damn things are everywhere. I originally wanted Hambot for tumblin' tumbleweeds in Utah world, but the complicated scripting language turned me off to Hambot so I've never done anything with it since. Why most programmers feel the need to make everything TEXT-based is beyond me. Not everyone is textual; some are actually graphical! <gasp!> <eyeroll>
>
[View Quote]

=?iso-8859-1?q?eep=b2?=

Feb 6, 1999, 8:47pm
If you only want programmers being able to use it, then I guess that's fine. However, most programmers write for end-users (NON-programmers). Infant book authors write for their audience: infants.

[View Quote] > Yeah! Why write programming languages that cater only to programmers? That'd be like giving an infant a book with no pictures <gasp!><eyeroll>
>
[View Quote]

andras sarkozy

Feb 6, 1999, 9:37pm
[View Quote] > If you only want programmers being able to use it, then I guess that's fine. However, most programmers write for end-users (NON-programmers). Infant book authors write for their audience: infants.
>

And to you too.

>
[View Quote]

dean

Feb 6, 1999, 11:56pm
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I agree with Eep this time.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I want to be able to
use the program, also.&nbsp; I don't want to have to tell the programmer
what I want because his interpretation of what I want might not always
be exactly how I originally envisioned it, and he might get upset with
me (or vice versa) because of creative differences.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
I would rather not have to learn a whole programming language in order
to use a program.
<p>I know that Eep and I are not alone on this one.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It
is just that we are the only ones to vocalize it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Programs
should be so simple that any ordinary person without programming skills
should be able to use it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A car should be able to be
driven by someone who is not mechanically inclined.&nbsp; The same is true
for programs.&nbsp;&nbsp; They should be able to be used by more than just
programmer.
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
[View Quote]

grover

Feb 7, 1999, 1:33am
The problem with bots is that they're inherently mathematical
when you get to the core. And it's hard to write equations and
logical operations in a textual interface. Now the end result
should be user friendly- nobody ever said the bot itself must be
complex! But the SDK language itself is by necessity a
programming language. As would be any other scripting language.

Have you ever tried to use the scripting language The Palace
uses? heh, it's even harder to use than fortran or c! And in AW
would allow for a lot less flexibility. Perhaps you can persuade
HamFon to make a GUI scripting interface for Hambot that will
allow you to draw a picture of where you want it to go <shrug>
but until then, programming is inevitable...

grover

[View Quote] > I agree with Eep this time. I want to be able to use the
> program, also. I don't want to have to tell the programmer
> what I want because his interpretation of what I want might not
> always be exactly how I originally envisioned it, and he might
> get upset with me (or vice versa) because of creative
> differences. I would rather not have to learn a whole
> programming language in order to use a program.
>
> I know that Eep and I are not alone on this one. It is just
> that we are the only ones to vocalize it. Programs should be
> so simple that any ordinary person without programming skills
> should be able to use it. A car should be able to be driven
> by someone who is not mechanically inclined. The same is true
> for programs. They should be able to be used by more than
> just programmer.
>
>
>
[View Quote]

dean

Feb 7, 1999, 1:55am
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Why not have it so that the GUI will allow you to input the variables and
configurations visually?
[View Quote]

=?iso-8859-1?q?eep=b2?=

Feb 7, 1999, 5:27am
;) Exactly. This is the thinking "outside the box" most programmers just can't "see". Why? Because they don't think visually. Left vs right brain thinking: psychologically proven. This is also why QA exists to break programmers out of their narrow-minded mode. So it really irritates me when companies want programmer QA...it's defeating the entire purposes of testing perspective. Helllllloooooohhh idiot corps(e)!

[View Quote] > Why not have it so that the GUI will allow you to input the variables and configurations visually?

walter knupe

Feb 7, 1999, 9:33am
After reading this thread it seems like, you want have an SDK application
which is easier to operate than hambot, has no scripts, is more powerful
than hamfon, allows creating bots by people who don't even see hambots
rather simple scripting, and
want to do VISUAL programm while even scripting is above their head ?

excuse me, but visual programming differs NOT AT ALL in the concepts of
textual programming. you still would have to learn a certain programming
type (procedural, functional, list-oriented, object-oriented), and finely
the "plug-together" of the program flow is independant in concept from the
interface.

Textual interfaces have the advantage that you can implement them very
faster and easier while gaining the same as a visual interface. do you have
any idea how much man-power it needs for a decent click-and-point interface
to, say, an OO programming approach ?

You don't want to wait for that or pay the guy doing it. And you propably
wouldn't like to operate it as well. Visual OO modelers for example are NOT
easy-to-use and thats not their purpose. Their just provide a sense of
abstraction which is not even needed for, e.g., hambot scripts.

Any other visual interface, one that is as easy to operate as, say, driving
a car, is unfortunately equally powerful. you can go left, right, straight
and back. Blinking is only for left and right. Suitable for a CarBot, but
NOTHING for a Bot Programming System.

and QA is something different as well... its actually not the different
profession, that really finds bugs, its the fact that you have different
PERSONS, anybody but the author of a program is qualified for QA'ing it.

Eep, it wouldn't hurt if you didn't leave your field of profession regarding
such statements as below.

Walter aka Faber

ps: i am not saying Hambot Scripts are ideal. a bot-making system might take
a different approach but still would use scripting. It might use visual
designing aspects for actuall visual bot needs (etc. walking path's or bot
group formations)


Eep² schrieb in Nachricht <36BD406F.2726142C at tnlc.com>...
>;) Exactly. This is the thinking "outside the box" most programmers just
can't "see". Why? Because they don't think visually. Left vs right brain
thinking: psychologically proven. This is also why QA exists to break
programmers out of their narrow-minded mode. So it really irritates me when
companies want programmer QA...it's defeating the entire purposes of testing
perspective. Helllllloooooohhh idiot corps(e)!
>
[View Quote]

=?iso-8859-1?q?eep=b2?=

Feb 8, 1999, 2:37am
[View Quote] > After reading this thread it seems like, you want have an SDK application which is easier to operate than hambot, has no scripts, is more powerful than hamfon, allows creating bots by people who don't even see hambots rather simple scripting, and want to do VISUAL programm while even scripting is above their head ?

No, I don't even WANT and "SDK" app, but an INTEGRATED system in AW that allows adding better environment interaction, without having to run EXTERNAL programs (like bots) to do it.

> excuse me, but visual programming differs NOT AT ALL in the concepts of textual programming. you still would have to learn a certain programming type (procedural, functional, list-oriented, object-oriented), and finely the "plug-together" of the program flow is independant in concept from the interface.
>
> Textual interfaces have the advantage that you can implement them very faster and easier while gaining the same as a visual interface. do you have any idea how much man-power it needs for a decent click-and-point interface to, say, an OO programming approach ?
>
> You don't want to wait for that or pay the guy doing it. And you propably wouldn't like to operate it as well. Visual OO modelers for example are NOT easy-to-use and thats not their purpose. Their just provide a sense of abstraction which is not even needed for, e.g., hambot scripts.

Need is relative. Not everyone abstracts as "easily" as you and/or most programmers think they do. Not everyone is a textual thinker. Perhaps you should take a basic pscyohology class and pay specific attention to the part on LEARNING. Not everyone learns the same way or is profficient in the learned way either.

> Any other visual interface, one that is as easy to operate as, say, driving a car, is unfortunately equally powerful. you can go left, right, straight and back. Blinking is only for left and right. Suitable for a CarBot, but NOTHING for a Bot Programming System.

Ah, you seem to be limited by the "thinking inside the box" too. Sad. Cars don't just go left, right, forward, and reverse; they also turn, curve, sway, and GRADUALLY change position—even moving DIAGONALLY! (A hard concept for you to grasp, I'm sure.)

> and QA is something different as well... its actually not the different profession, that really finds bugs, its the fact that you have different PERSONS, anybody but the author of a program is qualified for QA'ing it.

Right, and these "different PERSONS" are what make up "QA". Duh. And it IS a different profession because there is an entire INDUSTRY based around it! QA is a corporation department like marketing, programming, administration assisting, etc. Have you even ever been ivolved in the computer industry??

> Eep, it wouldn't hurt if you didn't leave your field of profession regarding such statements as below.

And it wouldn't hurt you, Walter, to stop talking out of your ass and being lame. Wee.

dean

Feb 8, 1999, 3:06am
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I never wanted a visual bot programming application.
<p>Suppose I want a weather application?&nbsp;&nbsp; What I would want
with this application would be a way to fill in a form that asks me what
the mean temperature should be, the barometric pressure, the amount of
annual rain fall, the amount of average humidity, etc. etc.
<p>If I want a trivia bot, I want to be able to input the questions and
answers, how long to wait between questions, how many questions, and etc.
via GUI.
<p>If I want a games bot (perhaps a soccer bot, for instance), I would
like to have a choice of inputting the field length, width and boundaries
which the ball must remain within, the number of players on each team,
etc, etc by GUI
<p>These are some basic examples, but I hope you get the idea.
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
[View Quote]

walter knupe

Feb 8, 1999, 4:11pm
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Yes, i do get the idea, and i think its perfectly valid. Any decent bot =
should offer a suitable interface to its operator.=20

I doubt that was Eep's point, though.=20

Walter aka Faber

Dean schrieb in Nachricht <36BE70BE.1DB21B2A at hotmail.com>...
I never wanted a visual bot programming application.=20
Suppose I want a weather application? What I would want with this =
application would be a way to fill in a form that asks me what the mean =
temperature should be, the barometric pressure, the amount of annual =
rain fall, the amount of average humidity, etc. etc.=20

If I want a trivia bot, I want to be able to input the questions and =
answers, how long to wait between questions, how many questions, and =
etc. via GUI.=20

If I want a games bot (perhaps a soccer bot, for instance), I would =
like to have a choice of inputting the field length, width and =
boundaries which the ball must remain within, the number of players on =
each team, etc, etc by GUI=20

These are some basic examples, but I hope you get the idea.=20
=20


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<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Yes, i do get the idea, and i think its =
perfectly valid.=20
Any decent bot should offer a suitable interface to its operator. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I doubt that was Eep's point, though. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Walter aka Faber</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV>Dean<CHALLAGAR at HOTMAIL.COM> schrieb in Nachricht &lt;<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:36BE70BE.1DB21B2A at hotmail.com">36BE70BE.1DB21B2A at hotmail.c=
om</A>&gt;...</DIV>I=20
never wanted a visual bot programming application.=20
<P>Suppose I want a weather application?&nbsp;&nbsp; What I would =
want with=20
this application would be a way to fill in a form that asks me what =
the mean=20
temperature should be, the barometric pressure, the amount of annual =
rain=20
fall, the amount of average humidity, etc. etc.=20
<P>If I want a trivia bot, I want to be able to input the questions =
and=20
answers, how long to wait between questions, how many questions, and =
etc.=20
via GUI.=20
<P>If I want a games bot (perhaps a soccer bot, for instance), I =
would like=20
to have a choice of inputting the field length, width and boundaries =
which=20
the ball must remain within, the number of players on each team, =
etc, etc by=20
GUI=20
<P>These are some basic examples, but I hope you get the idea. =
<BR>&nbsp;=20
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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baudwalker

Feb 8, 1999, 10:06pm
I find them books too hard to follow


[View Quote]

rjinswand

Feb 9, 1999, 2:45am
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In the case of HamBot though, it is a scripting language that you are =
using. Scripting is a type of programming... especially if you want to =
include conditional statements (if...then). What you want is Visual =
HamBot. :)

Rjinswand

--=20

Check out WorldOne, a humongous selection of models and avatars for =
one low price. Gandtech and Rjeneration have fused forces to bring you =
everything you need to start (or restart) your world. In one box.
http://www.gandtech.com/worldone=20

[View Quote] [View Quote] Yeah! Why write programming languages that cater only to =
programmers? That'd be like giving an infant a book with no pictures =
<gasp!><eyeroll>=20
grover=20

[View Quote] > Yes, please stop calling everything a bot; it's annoying! It's =
why I groaned when first reading the SDK description which mainly =
mentioned bots. I figured: "Oh, great, now everyone and their =
grandmother are gonna have stupid, annoying greeter bots." And what =
happened? Yup...those damn things are everywhere. I originally wanted =
Hambot for tumblin' tumbleweeds in Utah world, but the complicated =
scripting language turned me off to Hambot so I've never done anything =
with it since. Why most programmers feel the need to make everything =
TEXT-based is beyond me. Not everyone is textual; some are actually =
graphical! <gasp!> <eyeroll>=20
>=20
[View Quote]
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<BODY bgColor=3D#f0f0f0>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp; In the case of HamBot though, =
it is a=20
scripting language that you are using.&nbsp; Scripting is a type of=20
programming... especially if you want to include conditional statements=20
(if...then).&nbsp; What you want is Visual HamBot.&nbsp; :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<STRONG><EM>Rjinswand</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><BR>-- =
<BR></FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Check=20
out WorldOne, a humongous selection of models and avatars for one low =
price.=20
Gandtech and Rjeneration have fused forces to bring you everything you =
need to=20
start (or restart) your world.&nbsp; In one box.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.gandtech.com/worldone">http://www.gandtech.com/worldon=
e</A>=20
<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
[View Quote] protocol to the AW =
platform.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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