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May 6, 2004, 3:50pm

Active Worlds has faced moral issues for as long as it has existed. The
question has been posed many times, "is it a game program or visual chat
room?" The vision of Protagonist in the early days was a free open virtual
world where everyone could express their selves in thoughts and art. As
with all things, times change and it became a money making program and we
were taxed and taxed. Higher prices for better programming were the answer,
they said. We got Gate Keepers and Peace Keepers and rules and we are now
supposed to be safe in our virtual beds at night. Our kids would be safe
with a rating system and all was well in Pleasantville.



And NOW for the real story.



The truth is we have more bondage sadomasochistic worlds than ever before
and any kids can go in them. All they have to do is lie about their age to
a bot. We have people claiming to be one sex when they are another and
young when they are old. The standard answer is let the Mom and Dad deal
with it, just keep sending in the money. The people behind the keys here in
Active World are real and they are hurt by pedophiles and other sick deviant
behavior.



So this is the question to the AW community, when we know someone is lying
about their sex and/or age to gain access to children or abuse the abused,
don't we have a right and duty to tell the community? Are we not as guilty
as the abuser by our closed mouth?



Child pornography laws were recently amended to include computerized images
or altered (morphed) pictures of children, and counterfeit or synthetic
images generated by computer that appear to be of real minors or that were
marketed or represented to be real child pornography.



What about self-confessed morphing citizens that in this very news group
said, "Hey guys, I am out of the closet. I am a male". Yet they are still
there telling young boys they are a 20-year-old female.



I was asked in a gram by one these people; do I want peace or war?

This not just a question just to me. It is a question to all people who use
AW.

May 6, 2004, 4:30pm

Great Post Bro.....and, I would want a peaceful war....these freaks need not hang around OUR VR.
They are not welcome in MY opinion......and they do much more harm than help. Especially to the young impressionables. The world IS a strange place....thats why we like VR so much.....we do not need that crap in VR.

Leo :)



[View Quote]

May 6, 2004, 4:45pm

long long ago I saw the birth of internet. I was then in telecommunications.
The PC became available to presidents, vicepresidents, assistants etc,
predominantly male at that time. The Internet was a 'business tool'.
Due to the male access to the Internet, and the demand (something so new and
available) of pornography, the market of internet porn was born and grew in
proportion to the males working 'overtime' LOL. Female access at that time
was more in typing pools or secretarial so the porn industry was aimed
mostly at men. And there was and still is a huge market out there. We cannot
deny that or even change that until men no longer want to look (yeah right).
The market expanded in time as women became interested and less shy about
looking.
At no time was the internet made for children. Over the years it became an
information and teaching tool, supervised by trained professionals in school
systems.
Then children started creeping onto their parents at home PC, finding things
adult, because the market was only adult then. The world panicked LOL
I have never believed that internet is for children, in porn, or them even
being online without supervision. Television now with 100 channels also
carries porn, adult movies, and it is solely up to the parent to filter
their machines. Filter the tv, filter the computer. Neither is a babysitter
for children. You cannot blame the cable company for letting it into your
home when it is properly marked as being adult content.
If you ask, about 90 percent of those arguing for more children's rights,
trying to make adults talk like children, in case children are around, will
tell you that they would never let their children chat anyway...or go on
internet unsupervised. LOL
Aw now has a neat little filter built right in. Unfortunately at the Gate I
have heard gatekeepers telling how to change the ratings (due to Alpha being
pg13 they have to now it seems) which in fact give all minors the ability to
change without parental knowlege to X rating. Do they ask the age before
saying how to change it? no.....But Aw built a little filter at the ratings
option. It includes a password to block changing the rating. So in this case
should a world even have to ask age on entry, or demand proof, when the
world is not only marked on world listing tab as R or X but is also usually
marked on entry by Immigration Officer that is Adult.
The Internet is an Adult tool, lent to children maybe with proper
supervision and explanations. It is not and should never be considered a
children's domaine. A child's playground or babysitter. Keep your kids off
the Internet. Keep them safe
sweets

May 6, 2004, 6:37pm

Think that's one of the best posts I've seen in this Newsgroup for a long
time.

Like I would tell anyone that suspects anything illegal going on in
activeworlds is to inform the relevant government department, let them
conduct investigations.

I'm very sure Enzo would welcome an investigation to stop anything illegal
going on. In the real world people that have access to any child for
instance have to have a relevant police check beforehand, may not be
foolproof but stops many at the 1st hurdle. How many members that have
access to a child have had this check performed on them? non

Aw is a wonderful place to hide your id or gender and some will make the
most of it!

Anyway Bro, excellent contribution to the newsgroup..



[View Quote]

May 6, 2004, 7:15pm

If you know anyone who is targeting minors they should be reported to AWI.,
regardless of what they claim as age or gender. It doesn't matter if they
say they are old or young, male or female. If they are targeting minors,
they should be reported. End of story.

With that said however, it IS primarily the responsibility of the mother and
father to safeguard their own children. The internet it a vast and varied
place, much like a large city. Would you send your child to play wherever
they wish in the streets of New York unsupervised? Yes, the community
should be aware and be responsible, but the parents should be the primary
guardians of their own children. Those parents who are incapable of
watching over their children for whatever reason should leave them in the
care of someone who can watch over them in the meantime.

It sometimes seems that parents would rather spend their time trying to
control everyone BUT their own children. How difficult is it as a parent to
look at the program your child is using? To look at the ratings of the
worlds clearly printed to the side, and actually take the 2 minutes needed
to turn on the ratings password? How much effort does it take to check in
once in a while and see who your child is talking to, and where? Apparently
less effort than it takes to combat a large number of strangers and force
them into the unwilling role of kindergarten aids.

As to the D/s, BDSM, and even Gorean worlds, if you don't like it, don't go.
What is done by consenting adults is between consenting adults. On the
whole, these worlds are even more responsible and cautious than the average
"PG" world. They take their security and piece of mind seriously, and with
good reason. As communities, they tend to be even more vigilant than
average to prevent minor access.

You are the arbiter of what is right and proper for you, and your children.
If one feels that something another is doing is wrong, unsavory,
unwholesome, or immoral, then the course of action is clear: Avoid them and
keep your children away from them. If they are doing something actually
illegal, report them. If however you do not agree with consenting lifestyle
choices, simple avoid.

May 6, 2004, 7:50pm

Right on brudah.

--
Brock,
IceFlare Network
Founder/Administrator
http://www.iceflare.net


[View Quote]

May 6, 2004, 8:02pm

[View Quote] <snip excellent description for bravity>

> The Internet is an Adult tool, lent to children maybe with proper
> supervision and explanations. It is not and should never be considered a
> children's domaine. A child's playground or babysitter. Keep your kids off
> the Internet. Keep them safe
> sweets
>
>

Don't keep the kids off the Internet!!! Teach them how to use it, show them the gray areas too and EXPLAIN to them why it is wrong!
<Having 3 well behaved children I guess I speak from experience>

--
Andras
"It's MY computer" (tm Steve Gibson)

May 6, 2004, 8:45pm

LOL well behaved...and from experience....My friend's daughter, a well
behaved and usually obedient girl, was permitted to use ICQ for chatting
with rl school friends. No other form of chat due to creeps in the world.
And her parents kept a close eye on her.
Well wasn't it surprising one day to find in her mail, letters from a man,
asking for nude pictures. And she had responded. She was 13.
Should the mother have respected her privacy and not checked mail? which
they so demand their privacy. And should that mother not have banned that
child from any form of internet connection until she was 17 (which was
recently) and only because she is now working and out of school and
considered Adult although still in their home. Of course not....Can you ever
fully trust a teenager to behave and do exactly what is right? Is it worth
the risk that they may not? Of course not. Teens have a whole different way
of thinking when puberty hits and is hard enough keeping track of their real
lives with also keeping track of their peer pressure vr lives as well. All
parents try, some succeed, some fail. Fact is there are perverts out there
and they do find your children if those children do happen to give too much
info (even warned not too). Some are too protected and have no idea the
danger they are in.....They do NOT belong on internet....sorry but by
experience with friend's children (very good people) and the teen way of
thinking, you are fooling yourselves if you think they do not ever ever do
anything against your wishes....reality, friend
sweets

May 6, 2004, 8:56pm

also...in scientic study of the human brain, in its development which they
have used teens for these studies, the last part of the human brain to
actually develop and reach full strength is the part that controls though
processing leading to decision making. This takes place in the average brain
at approximates 19 yrs old. After that age the human brain is fully formed
and functional and no other growth takes place.....Decison making thought
process....and you want them on computers? ....You think without a properly
formed brain for decisions that they can make a proper decision as to right
and wrong? sometimes yes, mostly no, that is what parents are for, to guide
and control until the brainis formed....sorry if not as romatic idea as
children are little people, but in reality they are blank computers being
programmed up to 19 yrs old....sorry folks ....
Scientifically is a bad idea *grins
sweets

May 6, 2004, 9:02pm

Obviously it's been stated time and time again that online is where these
people are roaming with the cover of hidden identities. However, once you
know who they are and that they are sick and hurting people, you have a
responsiblity to yourself and your community to protect. So, in part, what
we're saying is that we have every right to stand our ground and be heard
even as they continue infiltrate every form of communication on the net.

BRO was sent a threatening telegram which read: "dont dodge the point at
hand, do you want peace bewteen us, or do you want more war? its your call"
Does this mean give in and shut up when you know someone is doing something
very wrong? Also, you can only do so much even as adults to "avoid" them.
Seiya is prime example as it seems to continue to bate hook right here in
the NGs so often as well as aimlessly all over Active Worlds. So in trying
to figure out what this one person is about and in effort to make a positive
contribution, I found what has answered some of my questions in a very
helpful website http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html .

Diagnostic Criteria of Narcissistic Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for
admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in
a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

#1 has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements
and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate
achievements)
#2 is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance,
beauty, or ideal love
#3 believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be
understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people
(or institutions)
#4 requires excessive admiration
#5 has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially
favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
#6 is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to
achieve his or her own ends
#7 lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings
and needs of others
#8 is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or
her
#9 shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Here is some help with treatment :
http://www.mentalhealth.com/rx/p23-pe07.html#Head_2a .

Repeating the same patterns of abuse in the NGs or anywhere else online is
just not cool. I'm one who is very tired of having it shoved in my face
while trying to be part of my community.

Sincere Citizen of AW,
Sharon / ORB

May 6, 2004, 9:06pm

http://www.epic.org/free_speech/censorship/copa.html

Interesting...

May 6, 2004, 9:12pm

omg you just described me and about 500 percent of aw people LMAO
sweets

May 6, 2004, 9:13pm

"andras" <andras at andras.net> kirjoitti viestiss
news:409ab613$1 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
[View Quote] I agree with Andras; children are not stupid and they understnad if things
are properly explianed. By making someting forbidden without explaining it
one just often make it more interesting.

I would also like to remeind that it is natural that at some point one becom
curious about the other sex. I recall as a child ( when no internet was
around) how we with the boys with big enthusiasm studied some old Playboy
that one had found somewhere. If someone happens to see a bit skin in some
picture , it will not kill anyone.

It seems the fear of children beeing abused in internet chats is almost
paranoid. Of course there are those who try to pretend they are younger etc,
but yet according to all investigations most abuse happens within family and
friends. What happens there is usually not a few naughty words by way more
sad actions. I still think it is safer to run into a weirdo on the net than
on the street (if one need to choose one).

All in all, I think there is one thing that one should make clear for ones
children. That is to NEVER go and meet anyone from the net, without a parent
going also. Also very important to not tell name and address on the net,
because these things could bring the child into real danger.

Drac

May 6, 2004, 9:16pm

"wizard myrddin" <admin at rdescape.co.uk> kirjoitti viestiss
news:409aa1ed at server1.Activeworlds.com...

>
> I'm very sure Enzo would welcome an investigation to stop anything illegal
> going on. In the real world people that have access to any child for
> instance have to have a relevant police check beforehand, may not be
> foolproof but stops many at the 1st hurdle. How many members that have
> access to a child have had this check performed on them? non
>

Really? Do all parents / potential parents , uncles, big brothers, mothers
etc have to take a pedo test these days?

May 6, 2004, 9:28pm

"sweets" <stylecanin at hotmail.com> kirjoitti viestiss
news:409ac2b7 at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> also...in scientic study of the human brain, in its development which they
> have used teens for these studies, the last part of the human brain to
> actually develop and reach full strength is the part that controls though
> processing leading to decision making. This takes place in the average
brain
> at approximates 19 yrs old. After that age the human brain is fully formed
> and functional and no other growth takes place.....Decison making thought
> process....and you want them on computers? ....You think without a
properly
> formed brain for decisions that they can make a proper decision as to
right
> and wrong? sometimes yes, mostly no, that is what parents are for, to
guide
> and control until the brainis formed....sorry if not as romatic idea as
> children are little people, but in reality they are blank computers being
> programmed up to 19 yrs old....sorry folks ....
> Scientifically is a bad idea *grins
> sweets
>
>

Yet these brainless people are allowed to drive a car, own a gun, get
married, use alchohol, be soliders? But should not be allowed to use
internet before 20?
I do know people who are 50 and cannot make any decissions though

May 6, 2004, 9:47pm

well our laws have change that they get licenced at 17 but hve probation for
driving, some places up to 2 years you arenot able to drive solo....and the
highest amount of deaths on the road is youth....says something....do not
get me started on whether they should vote, drive or kill in the
army....same as internet....not old enough LOL
Alcohol....as a person that has had problems with alcohol I am not sure if
anyone is really old enough for that....and no not at 17 18 or 19....again
quote road accidents and the proportion of youth deaths. The brain is
forming, alchol stops growth ....you do not give it to a child because they
are growing? well the brain, complex as it is takes a bit longer to complete
growing. you do not interfere with that by alcohol or drugs.
Guns? not sure what laws are on that, but in Canada they are very severe to
age, permits, and identy. Some countries may be different I do not
know....sorry but science has proven the formation of the brain and its
abilities....and these laws are now being changed to conform to these
studies....and age is rising for ability to do adult things. Yes there are
dumb adults but their brains unfortunately are fully formed.
Not against kids never was....but they are have their place as we all do....
and it is not for alcohol, guns, driving, war, internet (yes internet),
traveling alone, talking to strangers (whatever happened to that rule
anyway?). Get real, they are trying to grow up too fast without the
capability to handle it all.
sweets

May 6, 2004, 10:03pm

Hello sweets,

No it doesn't describe so many people in AW. Atleast I hope not! It's a
medical condition that requires treatment. The condition that is described
on this site by a doctor is actually the milder side of Seiya's problems.
You don't want to class yourself along with this morph please. You just
have no idea what it's capable of as the NGs is not a place to hash all that
out. So I'm being polite.

Sharon

May 6, 2004, 10:16pm

Here is something else for parents/caretakers to worry about, sweets:

http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-5207629.html?tag=nefd.top

Builderz
http://www.3dhost.net

May 6, 2004, 10:19pm

a Gorean molested
get rid of Goreans

a Homosexual molested
get rid of Homosexuals

a Jew molested
get rid of Jews

a Muslim molested
get rid of Muslims

a Negro molested
get rid of Negros

a Woman molested
get rid of Women

a White Male Good American Father molested
get rid of White Male Good American Fathers

....

protect our Children
but there were none left
and no one to protect them

....

would it not be better if we took care
to educate our children to face life as it is
the good and the bad?

to teach them to make their own choices in life?

to target the individual who does a wrongdoing
instead of generalising as is being done here?

internet is not the only joy or peril in life....

Alex
-
DELL Dimension 8250, Intel Pentium4 2.4GHz, 1GB RAM, 4GB paging file,
ATI Radeon 9700 (DELL) 128MB, ATI driver 02dec2003,
Creative Soundblaster Live! Series (WDM), driver p16x.sys 22 september 2003,
XP pro, DirectX 9.0a, ADSL 2048/320 Kbit/s

May 6, 2004, 10:31pm

"to target the individual who does a wrongdoing
instead of generalising as is being done here?"

precisely

Sharon


[View Quote]

May 6, 2004, 10:35pm

To target I mean by legal means at our disposal, with reasonable proof
of fact, not by slandering and spreading rumors.

Alex

[View Quote] >"to target the individual who does a wrongdoing
>instead of generalising as is being done here?"
>
>precisely
>
>Sharon

May 6, 2004, 10:47pm

Alex,

No one is slandering and spreading rumors without evidence or proof or
crossproof. Furthermore, we're tired of the abuse and listening to garbage
in NGs as well. We're normal paying citizens. I have had many worlds in my
7 years here spending several hundred of dollars in Active Worlds .. BRO has
a world and he pays for hosting with Active Worlds.. between us we have 4
citizenships. That's paying our fair share to be part of this community.
We get told to take it and not speak about things while freaking idiots are
allowed to say anything and do anything ? I THINK NOT. You don't have any
idea how many of us are affected is my guess. So I refuse to be quiet any
longer. You say let the pervs roam and let my friends get abused when I
know they are likely targets? NOT!!!!!

Sharon



[View Quote]

May 6, 2004, 11:26pm

Sharon,

I don't say let the pervs roam, I have taken action against child
molestors before in AW. But I do say do not generalise, as was done.
If you have to report, do so, but then to the proper authorities. Send
logs to the ISPs, report to AWI, if necessary to the police.

This I call generalising:
"The truth is we have more bondage sadomasochistic worlds than ever
before and any kids can go in them. All they have to do is lie about
their age to a bot. We have people claiming to be one sex when they
are another and young when they are old. The standard answer is let
the Mom and Dad deal with it, just keep sending in the money. The
people behind the keys here in Active World are real and they are hurt
by pedophiles and other sick deviant behavior".

If there are pedophiles in AWI (and the probabilities are they are
anywhere, not only here), the poster throws everything into one
basket: adult worlds, people claiming wrong sex or wrong age, and goes
on to pedophiles. His/her main theme is to protect our children.

Excuse me, but if this is not a sort or scrambling, I don't know what
to call it.

If there are grown up individuals who are *approaching* young kids
with explicit sexual intentions here, they should go, sure. This does
not justify the harrassment of adult worlds, or virtual age or gender.
Parents are responsible where their children go, both in RL and in VR.
Children will see transgender in the streets of London, New York or
Calcutta, and people hiding their age. Internet has its own perils
too.

I'm not trying to minimise the problem, Sharon, and I know it is a
difficult and sensitive subject, and even more difficult to act
effectively agains child molestors. But we gain nothing by pointing
the finger at people and groups who are minding their own legitimate
business, and who are often attacked by people who do not share their
lifestyles.

Alex

May 7, 2004, 12:59am

This is all real offending to me. In all seriousness, it really is. I'm 14,
and i'm responsible. It's just the kids who are new to the internet is just
so, vulnerable. I've gone threw allot, both sides, bad and good [not bad
like ogmogg i am like 23 and want your nekkid picz plpzlzplz and shes like..
12.] Like I said, i'm 14, been on the internet since 8. Built my
security/privacy online. I'm real knowledgable about the internet, not like
MANY kids today, but some are the same as me, private, and secured. My
parents dont need to monitor me, they know i'm a tech wiz.

Thats my 2 cents.

--

Signed,
TheMask

:: Owner of Delusional-Minds Hosting ::
Free world hosting.. Just a T-Gram will do it.

http://www.delusional-minds.com

[View Quote]

May 7, 2004, 1:06am

a White Male Good American Father molested

GOOD FATHERS DON"T MOLEST !!!!!
Lets not muddy the issue. This crime issue.

[View Quote]

May 7, 2004, 1:10am

Same, 'cept I'm 15.

[View Quote]

May 7, 2004, 1:10am

That's the point :P

[View Quote]

May 7, 2004, 3:46am

well when you grow up you will realize that in the real world....2 cents is
worth just that....2 cents....and at todays standards is close to
nothing.....
just my 4 cents *winks
sweets

May 7, 2004, 8:34am

I am first person to say unless you have long term close
relationship with a person online you don't know who is behind the
keys.

As for blocking X rated worlds with a Password to keep Kids out, how
long does it take to reinstall AW on a computer? How can we know who is
there lurking waiting for our backs to be turned away?

Does anyone remember the "true confession" of one person in this NG
saying they was a male after posing as a female ? If you have that post
saved please repost here in this thread. A few have said witch hunt
All I am asking is for truthful answers. New young builders should
have those answers before they get hurt by more lies. If that
confession never happened I will be the first to say I am sorry I was
misinformed.

There have been some who who have "talked about the right do whatever
you like as long as it is between two consenting adults". That is all
well and good. The trouble is online you have no idea if it is true
about them being adults in most cases. The laws of most states require
proof of age to drink. Are there fake IDs ? YES YES YES but it is still
a good law.

I hope someof you have better answers than I do. That why I posted
here to start with. Thanks

May 7, 2004, 8:59am

This is not gender, race, religion or sexual choice question. I know of
no race or religion that approves of being dishonest and child abuse.
Homosexuals and Jewish people are NOT out there as a group running around
lying and abusing kids. It is not even a question about what you people
over 21 with whips do in their homes and bedrooms if both want to do
those kind of things.

This is about what can we do as a community to improve the safety for us
all.
Some my best friends are " " you fill in the blank. That is not
the point .
The point is I don't want any friends who abuse women and kids. I
don't want there to really be a Debbie Faith murdered in real life
because it was easy to take the credit for a program but not share in the
blame. This an AWI issue and community issue.
_________________________________________________________

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