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Feb 29, 2004, 11:40pm

How can I see the posts in beta newsgroup?

Feb 29, 2004, 11:48pm

On 29 Feb 2004 20:40:19 -0500, "the lady" <thelady263414 at hotmail.com>
[View Quote] >How can I see the posts in beta newsgroup?

You can't. The beta ng is locked, and only accessible to 'official'
beta testers. The 'open' beta testers do not have access to it.

Alex

Mar 1, 2004, 5:25am

Which is really stupid, because if open beta testers were allowed, there
would be more bug reports, therefore more things fixed.
[View Quote]

Mar 1, 2004, 6:16am

You can't. If you encounter a problem, send it to Bill, although a lot of
ppl still post them here :(

[View Quote]

Mar 1, 2004, 7:25am

Beta seems to have become a place of exclusion to people interested in
testing the AW software. It's wrong. AOL has it's own newsgroup away from
other newsgroups regarding their beta. They have a whole lot of testers.
They don't flame for posting something that might not need to be fixed. And
if you are a flamer, your posting privileges are taken away. If you don't
encourage people to post problems, the software can't be perfected and sent
out in good quality. It needs to be more freely accessible to those
interested in participating. Those who personally attack someone in the
newsgroup, should be omitted from participating. Beta can become it's own
little community within the community if it is friendly to its participants,
does not tolerate personal attacks within the group, and good communication
established between the programmers and the testers.

AW please strive to make your beta the best beta it can be. : )

[View Quote]

Mar 1, 2004, 8:04am

"Beta seems to have become a place of exclusion to people interested in
testing the AW software."

No it hasn't, the people who do the testing aka "Beta Testers" have access
to the newsgroup. Why don't you try contacting Bill and letting him know
you are interested.


[View Quote]

Mar 1, 2004, 10:06am

On 1 Mar 2004 04:25:15 -0500, "the lady" <thelady263414 at hotmail.com>
[View Quote] >Beta seems to have become a place of exclusion to people interested in
>testing the AW software.

Beta was made private because it was necessary to do so. It is
intended for beta testing only, and an open quality turned it into...
well, just another discussion ng. This means the devteam had to go
through tens and hundreds of irrelevant information.

Secondly, official beta testers are supposed not to reveal the
contents of the beta ng. This is logical, because in the closed beta
period the software may have flaws that could affect, among other
things, security. AWI also decides who becomes beta tester, trying to
keep the group small and efficient until the browser goes to open
beta, like it is now.

The open beta period is the last stage. You can post here for
feedback and of course you must send your bug reports to
beta at activeworlds.com

Comparisons with other enterprises (AOL etc) are not very helpful,
each has its own way of organising betas. Some, like Adobe, only
allow you to send emails from a web page, they do not have a specific
beta ng. AWI experimented with different ways in the past, and
selected this way. It may or may not be the best system, but it's the
one they found to work best for them.

Alex

Mar 1, 2004, 6:25pm

> They don't flame for posting something that might not need to be
fixed. And
> if you are a flamer, your posting privileges are taken away.

See, that's just the problem... Opening up the beta NG allows people
(like you) to carry off-topic and unnecessary posts into the beta NG. As
Xelag pointed out, this forces to the dev team to wade though many many
useless posts, before they actually find something worth reading.

It also allows flamers and the like to participate in the beta NG. This
means we get those threads that are entirely too long and are composed
of messages amounting to no more than one-line flames. (Which the dev
team also has to wade though). This requires the dev team to spend time
moderating the newsgroup, instead of fixing bugs and adding features.

In short, keeping the beta ng private provides higher quality bug
reports from knowledgeable members of the community while cutting the
nonsense that is evident in other groups.

Regards,
Jeremy



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeremy Booker - Owner / Webmaster
JTech Web Systems
www.JTechWebSystems.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about
itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." -Mathew 5:34




[View Quote]

Mar 1, 2004, 8:00pm

Yet again The Lady is going on about this AGAIN like with 3.4 open beta.

Mar 1, 2004, 10:40pm

Well maybe The Lady should stop and think.

-
Telegram from The Lady, sent Mon Mar 1, 2004 03:53:
XelaG, why cant the open beta testers post to their ng?

My answer to her was: because it is not their ng.
-

There seems to be some confusion. Active Words is a company that
provides a 3D environment. When we join this environment, we expect
(and are made to expect) that this is our environment Well, within
the limits given to us, it is, outside those limits, it isn't.

Active Worlds is not a charitable company, it is a company that
wants/needs to make money. It is not a democracy. It provides
certain services. The ideal times of the first years of Active Worlds
(called something else then) is gone.

Within our 'allowed limits', we can create the illusion that we are
free within this virtual reality. But times come when we have to stop
and think. Active Worlds will decide what it deams ok or not.
Hopefully, within its legal limitations; if they cross the line,
there is always a legal recourse possible but usually expensive.

As far as the beta ng goes, no-one has a valid claim that it belongs
to them. It was created by Active Worlds for the sole purpose of
providing their company programmers with feedback they can use. It is
solely up to them to decide how this ng will be used.

We have the choice to stay or leave. If we stay, we have the choice
to make our disagreemnts with AWI policies known (oh and I have a
few). But there are some reasonable limits to this.

What claim do you think anyone can make on a technical ng, The Lady?
Stop and think :)

Alex

On 1 Mar 2004 17:00:09 -0500, "r i c h a r d"
[View Quote] >Yet again The Lady is going on about this AGAIN like with 3.4 open beta.
>

Mar 1, 2004, 11:16pm

Some people in the group feel too intimidated to post problems.


[View Quote]

Mar 2, 2004, 1:33am

On 1 Mar 2004 20:16:35 -0500, "the lady" <thelady263414 at hotmail.com>
[View Quote] >Some people in the group feel too intimidated to post problems.

So they need a beta ng to feel less intimidated? If that is the case,
I'd rather not feel their bugs :) The beta ng is not meant as a
psychological tool to clear users' inhibitions, it has a very specific
aim: to help the devteam to clear program inhibitions.

Alex

Mar 3, 2004, 1:05am

Seems you would want to make a sincere effort to clear the air regarding any
inhibitions beta testers would have concering posting problems.

Problems with that type of thinking are:

1) Closed minded
2) Not in the spirit of Cy
3) Tends to exclude instead of embrace participants
4) Not very good business practice

Is there any way someone in beta could be the one to start an effort to
begin making people feel more at ease in posting?

[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 2:09am

Seems you simply are blind to what is going on, and are just posting
irrelevant and emotional reasons to prove the point that AWI is doing
wrong again :)

For the last time, I'll try to explain. Beta testing is a technical
matter which is exclusive domain of AWI, it is meant to help AWI to
solve bugs in their software in the way they design it. Wishlisting
is open for all. Arguments such as 'Some people in the group feel too
intimidated to post problems' are totally irrelevant, because they do
not concern beta testing. 'Problems' in a personal sense have nothing
to do with beta testing. Neither has this you posted:

1) Closed minded
2) Not in the spirit of Cy
3) Tends to exclude instead of embrace participants
4) Not very good business practice

You seem to want to turn all arguments to your own crusade. That's a
pity, because you mix problems, solutions and responsabilities,
confuse yourself and others, and generate bad feelings.

This was my last word to you about this matter :)

Alex

On 2 Mar 2004 22:05:12 -0500, "the lady" <thelady263414 at hotmail.com>
[View Quote] >Seems you would want to make a sincere effort to clear the air regarding any
>inhibitions beta testers would have concering posting problems.
>
>Problems with that type of thinking are:
>
>1) Closed minded
>2) Not in the spirit of Cy
>3) Tends to exclude instead of embrace participants
>4) Not very good business practice
>
>Is there any way someone in beta could be the one to start an effort to
>begin making people feel more at ease in posting?
>
[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 3:15am

I'm speaking up for those who have told me about the problem. If you can't
or won't help, that's up to you. In the meantime, as I said below "> >Is
there any way someone in beta could be the one to start an effort to

If you can't do that, maybe someone else in the group could start that
effort. : )


[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 12:12pm

good god ....... how about actually reading and comprehending what information you have been given?
The BETA NG does not need beginners, nor people that do not listen to instructions.

[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 12:56pm

Let those that you are speaking up for speak for themselves, what you need
to do is speak from your own experience, not heresay ... you haven't even
specified what *those who have told you* are complaining their problems are.

LNH



[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 1:58pm

Leo, it is actually useless to talk to this lady. She is using social
and psychological arguments to justify her claims, completely
ingnoring or bypassing the fact that the beta team and the beta ng
have nothing to do with those arguments, it's a technical group
composed of selected citizens to help AWI, not the citizens nor the
community, to fix technical bugs. It is not a policy making group,
and not a self-help group, nor a community or discussion group, social
and psychological arguments do not apply :)

Would she also like to decide who works and programs for AWI - paid or
not, to whom AWI sells or licences their products?

There are enough ngs open to the public, for discussion and
socio-psychological matters, most open-beta testers have published in
this ng, and are being read by devteam and even answered.

But enough for me, I won't waste my time replying to her on this
matter (this was not a direct reply to her LOL, just letting off
steam!)

Alex

On 3 Mar 2004 09:12:31 -0500, "binarybud"
[View Quote] >good god ....... how about actually reading and comprehending what information you have been given?
>The BETA NG does not need beginners, nor people that do not listen to instructions.
>
[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 2:20pm

:) Steam accepted :)


[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 9:45pm

I don't agree with your suggestion.

[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 9:49pm

I'm not exclusively picking on beta. Just speaking up from what I've seen
and what people have told me regarding beta ng.

Anyone reading this that participates in beta that would like to check into
this situation, please do so. : )

[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 9:58pm

How can you not agree to 'what you need to do is speak from your own
experience, not heresay'?
That suggestion is common sence.

[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 10:01pm

LOL! oh lord.


[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 10:03pm

hehehehe

[View Quote]

Mar 3, 2004, 10:55pm

A suggestion, off topic (that's why I reply) - ever though of
consulting a shrink for help? They might help convincing AWI to turn
their business into a social club, or convince you to mind your own
business, not everybody else's :)

On 3 Mar 2004 18:49:46 -0500, "the lady" <thelady263414 at hotmail.com>
[View Quote] >I'm not exclusively picking on beta. Just speaking up from what I've seen
>and what people have told me regarding beta ng.
>
>Anyone reading this that participates in beta that would like to check into
>this situation, please do so. : )

Mar 4, 2004, 6:57am

I did not mean to reply to XelaG - just a general spot within this thread.

When will you folks learn: "DON'T FEED THE TROLL" !

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame27.html or
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame8.html

Feel free to browse that collection and maybe you'll find better references :)

--
Andras
"It's MY computer" (tm Steve Gibson)

Mar 4, 2004, 7:14am

That's a lot of hooey. It just makes it harder to get problems fixed. I
had to badger Roland at times to get him to come look at some Av problems
back in 3.0 and 3.1 and when he finally did come he was able to track down
the problem and get it fixed in the next upgrade. AWI and the current
programmers just want to stick to a little "clique" of people to work on the
beta's and that's why it has taken so long and been so many problems to fix
and IMO a big part of the reason Roland left. It's just like the terrible
problems that exist with transparencies now. They used to work better back
in AW 2.2 and 3.0. But particularly since 3.2 multiple transparencies are
much worse and if you aren't on the "beta team" no ones wants to listen.
Well I don't want to be on the beta team. I just want to tell someone at
AWI about the problems I see since I am a modeler and have some insight to
some of the problems from observation in Truespace vs the AWB.
Andras and I just had a few discussions about the transparency problems and
he was going to talk to the programmers about what we saw. he is more of
an insider so maybe he will have some luck. I gave up sometime back trying
to get my opinions heard. I'm about at the point that it can stay broke for
all I care.

Paul

[View Quote]

Mar 4, 2004, 11:06am

[View Quote] > That's a lot of hooey. It just makes it harder to get problems fixed. I
> had to badger Roland at times to get him to come look at some Av problems
> back in 3.0 and 3.1 and when he finally did come he was able to track down
> the problem and get it fixed in the next upgrade. AWI and the current
> programmers just want to stick to a little "clique" of people to work on the
> beta's and that's why it has taken so long and been so many problems to fix
> and IMO a big part of the reason Roland left. It's just like the terrible
> problems that exist with transparencies now. They used to work better back
> in AW 2.2 and 3.0. But particularly since 3.2 multiple transparencies are
> much worse and if you aren't on the "beta team" no ones wants to listen.
> Well I don't want to be on the beta team. I just want to tell someone at
> AWI about the problems I see since I am a modeler and have some insight to
> some of the problems from observation in Truespace vs the AWB.
> Andras and I just had a few discussions about the transparency problems and
> he was going to talk to the programmers about what we saw. he is more of
> an insider so maybe he will have some luck. I gave up sometime back trying
> to get my opinions heard. I'm about at the point that it can stay broke for
> all I care.
>
> Paul

Well,, since Chrispeg on board we have again someone who listens instead of dodging the problems.
The reason I'm closer to the devteam than most of the folks is that I have an ability to describe the problem (and trace the bugs and all circumstances) better than average.
The programmers can't solve the bug if they can't see it - I usually spend hours to track it down, find the cause (sometimes giving advices) and create simple examples where it is easy to reproduce them.
I always listen to folks in the community if they asks me about problems and I try to relay them the best I can do to the devteam. Sometimes those hours I spend can save much more time for them to fix it - meaning we can get the fix faster:)
I am a modeler (not a really good one), I know programming (very well) and I know how the system works (better than almost everyone). I designed several software, run a big devteam to develop systems and acted as a firewall between them and the user to make the process more productive and effective. You have to live with this multilayer approach to get the most bang for your money (virtually :).
Having The Lady on the beta group would ruin completely the process - the beta folks don't want to hear any "democracy" and "it is not right - they abuse me/others" issues while they are doing their job. I could question the selection of the beta team (few people shouldn't be there IMO) but it is solely the devteam's decision. if they satisfied - I'm happy.

my 2 cents,
--
Andras
"It's MY computer" (tm Steve Gibson)

Mar 4, 2004, 11:07am

[View Quote] >I did not mean to reply to XelaG - just a general spot within this thread.
>
>When will you folks learn: "DON'T FEED THE TROLL" !
>
>http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame27.html or
>http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame8.html
>
>Feel free to browse that collection and maybe you'll find better references :)

LOL :)

Mar 4, 2004, 12:53pm

omg here's a good one too http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame46.html
lol. That site is so funny, I know alot of those people there hehe. I
get the feeling this one may be M A T T:
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame15.html hehe

[View Quote]

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