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Jul 20, 2003, 6:39pm

Bots can broadcast from world to world, (also, I think from universe to
universe), and to selected individuals. That can be a useful tool.

However, if you have any kind of bot chat configuration that
alters/enhances/limits or in any way changes the one that comes with and
works with regular citizens in the AW program, kindly inform your visitors
of that when they enter your world. Do this in three ways: in your welcome
message, with a sign at your world entry point, and detailed explanation on
your web page.

Most people do not like their personal conversations broadcasted throughout
the universe, galaxy, etc., without their knowledge. And they would
appreciate the knowledge about the controls, how it works and if they are
able to turn it off regarding their conversations while they are visiting
your world.

Jul 20, 2003, 8:52pm

Oh leave it alone! World owners can do whatever they like, if somebody
wants privacy, WHISPER... there could just as easily be someone lurking in
the world as in another world that there is a phone bot in! You seem to
count aw as REALITY!!! AW is a VIRTUAL ONLINE REALITY.... look... AW is
virtual, the real world is real! AW IS OWNED BY A COMPANY called "ACTIVE
WORLDS INC"... OK!?

~John

[View Quote]

Jul 20, 2003, 9:41pm

Not quite, ma'am.

I do agree with you that privacy should be respected. But if you use
the Active Worlds software, you know you have no option on this. Take
it or leave it, I'd say.

Active Worlds now has quite a few features that could upset you. It
is not tailored to you or me. If you do not wish to be submitted to
features you do not like, create your own world, regulate its
properties, and stick to it: this is the safest way. If you explore
other worlds, I'm afraid you will be submitted to other rules. It's
up to you to chosse which worlds you wish to visit.

Alex

On 20 Jul 2003 16:39:11 -0400, "the lady" <thelady263414 at hotmail.com>
[View Quote] >Bots can broadcast from world to world, (also, I think from universe to
>universe), and to selected individuals. That can be a useful tool.
>
>However, if you have any kind of bot chat configuration that
>alters/enhances/limits or in any way changes the one that comes with and
>works with regular citizens in the AW program, kindly inform your visitors
>of that when they enter your world. Do this in three ways: in your welcome
>message, with a sign at your world entry point, and detailed explanation on
>your web page.
>
>Most people do not like their personal conversations broadcasted throughout
>the universe, galaxy, etc., without their knowledge. And they would
>appreciate the knowledge about the controls, how it works and if they are
>able to turn it off regarding their conversations while they are visiting
>your world.
>

Jul 20, 2003, 10:04pm

To explain this a bit more. Since 1998/1999, when bots were created,
they have the ability to receive chat, and to receive whispers
adressed to them (and only those ones addressed to them), and receive
all other AW events. This is because they use the AW SDK. But bots
don't only use the AW SDK, they have their own code to handle what
they do with this. It depends on the bot maker what sort of code they
add (and they MUST add code, otherwise bots would do nothing). They
could be adding code to send the owner's password to someone, or the
whole chat to the CIA...

First rule: use bots from trusted makers.

Second rule: NEVER expect that people or bots will do what you want.
You have, in your own world, the right to select which people and
which bots you allow in. You do NOT have that right in other worlds.

Whispers seem safe to me. World servers do not log them, and they do
not go thru the universe server. Telegrams are dangerous: the
universe server has an option to LOG ALL TELEGRAMS. Chat is open to
everone: it can be privately logged, sent world wide , published on
CNN, there is no way to control that.

I'm not trying to put you off, I'm just trying to show you our limits.

Alex
XelaG - bot maker

[View Quote] >Not quite, ma'am.
>
>I do agree with you that privacy should be respected. But if you use
>the Active Worlds software, you know you have no option on this. Take
>it or leave it, I'd say.
>
>Active Worlds now has quite a few features that could upset you. It
>is not tailored to you or me. If you do not wish to be submitted to
>features you do not like, create your own world, regulate its
>properties, and stick to it: this is the safest way. If you explore
>other worlds, I'm afraid you will be submitted to other rules. It's
>up to you to chosse which worlds you wish to visit.
>
>Alex
>
>On 20 Jul 2003 16:39:11 -0400, "the lady" <thelady263414 at hotmail.com>
[View Quote]

Jul 20, 2003, 11:27pm

I understand that there will always be a certain degree of non-privacy in
AW. I'm not asking for encrypted software. I'm asking for world owners to,
out of courtesy and respect for the need of non-worldwide broadcasted
conversation, to post their bot settings regarding their world chat so that
vistors are informed.

[View Quote]

Jul 20, 2003, 11:29pm

Maybe the lady should make a stand against the fact the aw uniserver logs
telegrams ;)

Oh sorry guys thats gonna have her going for months...but id have thought
the software would have been encrypted anyway... its certainly compressed
the aworld.exe's seem to be getting smaller not larger O_o

Jul 20, 2003, 11:59pm

Im kinda getting sick of people whining about privacy from a bot relaying it
over the whole world. If you dont like it, just teleport out of the world.
It's just a click. TonyM Made the ChatRelayBot
(http://caesar.homeunix.org/aw/relay/) Because it would be useful for
builders to chat among the world there building with, so they dont need to
use a phonebot or something to do it, or they use it among different useages
which i wont list, because theres a couple more. But if you dont seem very
safe with a bot there, then goto somewhere in AW and talk in whispers. Easy.

Jul 21, 2003, 2:22am

Three ways to explain to a visitor of your world what bots in it are
doing? Next you'll be expecting each world owner to write their own
privacy policy for their world and have their bot read it to you upon
entry. No offense, but I'd be realistic and not expect world owners to
comply with your request. If you are worried about your privacy and/or
are chatting about sensitive material, than use an instant message
client with encryption, PGP encrypted e-mail, a VPN, or some other type
of secure communications medium instead of AW. As far as I know, almost
everything can be logged except whispers (even then, they probably COULD
be logged using a hacked or hex edited version of a world server).

AW, for the most part, is a public place. Lots of worlds I go to have
the bot announce to everyone else in that world that I just entered.
Privacy cannot be guaranteed in places like this. I'd politely ask the
world owner or world caretakers about their policies, and if you don't
like them or agree to them, then kindly leave. Maybe you'd be better
suited in a private world with no bots that you host yourself? If you
really want what you say to be done by most AW citizens, then try to get
AWI to add your suggestions into their Conduct Guidelines
(http://www.activeworlds.com/community/conduct.asp) and/or Content
Guidelines (http://www.activeworlds.com/community/terms.asp).

Builderz
http://www.3dhost.net

[View Quote]

Jul 21, 2003, 2:54am

Well, honestly... thats up to the world owner... privacy rules mean that
your chat cannot be 'spied' upon in AWI public worlds appart from by AWI if
they feel something is amiss.

Did you have a traumatic experience with a ChatRelayBot by any chance
TheLady? It would seem to best fit what you are refering to...

Like everything, its up to world owners and the bot programmers to decide
exactly how the worlds chat system should run... I know in the main world I
program for in AWEdu we use the ChatRelayBot for relaying everything all
over the world because we want to be able to communicate, there really is
nothing to hide that cannot be done in whispers or telegrams if needed, and
the occasional time that we do, we can take down the ChatRelayBot and put up
the Zeus beta to restict the outgoing communications from a chat zone. We
have never had any other complaints, heck what the hell do you think is
happening to your chat when it comes out bright pink on the chat window? :)

Cooincidently AW IS encrypted at communications, and EXE level...

- Mark
[View Quote]

Jul 21, 2003, 3:19am

I concur. By default, my bot comes configured with a welcome message explicitly stating it is in action, and where users can get more information on it. Whether or not worldowners change it is something I can't control; it's up to them to make sure users know where they can find information about my bot and what it does.

Public chat is just that -- "public". They may be intercepted, modified, and rebroadcasted by anything that knows how to -- the CRB, another relay-type bot, and basically anything else out there.

If The Lady has had any traumatic experiences with a CRB, I invite her to either email me about it or respond to this thread :)

[View Quote] > Well, honestly... thats up to the world owner... privacy rules mean that your chat cannot be 'spied' upon in AWI public worlds appart from by AWI if they feel something is amiss.
>
> Did you have a traumatic experience with a ChatRelayBot by any chance TheLady? It would seem to best fit what you are refering to...
>
> Like everything, its up to world owners and the bot programmers to decide exactly how the worlds chat system should run... I know in the main world I program for in AWEdu we use the ChatRelayBot for relaying everything all over the world because we want to be able to communicate, there really is nothing to hide that cannot be done in whispers or telegrams if needed, and the occasional time that we do, we can take down the ChatRelayBot and put up the Zeus beta to restict the outgoing communications from a chat zone. We have never had any other complaints, heck what the hell do you think is happening to your chat when it comes out bright pink on the chat window? :)
>
> Cooincidently AW IS encrypted at communications, and EXE level...

Jul 21, 2003, 3:43am

[View Quote] I do not have to tell you squat about what my bot is doing in my world.
If you don't like _that_ don't visit _my_ world.

--
--Bowen--

No of SETI units returned: 41
Processing time: 31 days, 9 hours.
(Total hours: 753)
www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

Jul 21, 2003, 4:21am

Actually, since the issue was brought up, it is, in fact, a question
which information may and can be logged and stored and which not.

The USA has low privacy and data protection laws, however, the case is
different for countries of the EU on one hand and individual countries
in Europe with even more sophisticated laws on the other hand.

For Germany, for example, I would classify all broadcasting of private
conversation (which is even private conversation held in public places)
WITHOUT the consent of the people speaking, a violation of existing
laws, also the storage of information that can be connected to an
individuum (eg. visitors logfiles with IP number etc.).

If the people give their explicite permission (not implicite by using
the software alone), it would be allowed, though.

So, at least for universe and world owners located in specific
countries, it might be a good idea to inform their visitors that
conversations and dates/times/lengths of visits are publicly broadcasted
and stored - or to refrain from such attempts in general.





[View Quote]

Jul 21, 2003, 8:13am

Remember though, sometimesworld owners will have the world on 'hide chat'
and will repeat the chat through a bot. This basically disables whispers.
[View Quote]

Jul 21, 2003, 8:57am

Only if they do not enable "Show Names". If they enable this, you will be able to whisper :)

[View Quote] > Remember though, sometimesworld owners will have the world on 'hide chat' and will repeat the chat through a bot. This basically disables whispers.

Jul 21, 2003, 9:00am

No traumatic experience, just one of those wake up calls after the fact.

[View Quote]

Jul 21, 2003, 9:27am

Active Worlds is a privately owned company, Also it is a company set in the
US. As long as the software itself isn't breaking any of the US internet
laws then its pretty much anything goes, Country laws don't apply to the
software itself, and what goes on in it :)
I just find it funny how The Lady comes and try's to change the most stupid
small things, and things that are fine. I know when I ran my world some
crazy things with chat and names went on in there, most people seemed to
welcome the chat manipulation, and those who didn't left. Simple as that. If
I am paying $100 for a world and decide to let you in, you should at least
have the courtesy to not try and change the way that I do things :) BTW the
AW browser is very encrypted, and that's why you can go to bed at night and
sleep knowing some little hacker isn't going to imitate your account (well
about 95% of the time :P). Anyways, just my two cents on the matter :)

-Cheers
Mod

[View Quote]

Jul 21, 2003, 1:04pm

Hi Xelag, long time no see...well the CNN option seems intriguing :o)
icey
[View Quote] >To explain this a bit more. Since 1998/1999, when bots were created,
>they have the ability to receive chat, and to receive whispers
>adressed to them (and only those ones addressed to them), and receive
>all other AW events. This is because they use the AW SDK. But bots
>don't only use the AW SDK, they have their own code to handle what
>they do with this. It depends on the bot maker what sort of code they
>add (and they MUST add code, otherwise bots would do nothing). They
>could be adding code to send the owner's password to someone, or the
>whole chat to the CIA...
>
>First rule: use bots from trusted makers.
>
>Second rule: NEVER expect that people or bots will do what you want.
>You have, in your own world, the right to select which people and
>which bots you allow in. You do NOT have that right in other worlds.
>
>Whispers seem safe to me. World servers do not log them, and they do
>not go thru the universe server. Telegrams are dangerous: the
>universe server has an option to LOG ALL TELEGRAMS. Chat is open to
>everone: it can be privately logged, sent world wide , published on
>CNN, there is no way to control that.
>
>
>
>
>

Jul 21, 2003, 1:15pm

Active Worlds is a privately owned company, Also it is a company set in
the US. As long as the software itself isn't breaking any of the US
internet laws then its pretty much anything goes, Country laws don't
apply to the software itself, and what goes on in it :)
<<<

I am afraid not so - and I do not mean the countries who claim
legislative even when an offer is _accessible_ in this country (eg. to
block certain IP numbers for their citizens or pursue offending
foreigners when they should enter the country).

The world _owners_ are _not_ a part of the AW company (except for AW
owned worlds).
The world owners only use the AW universe server to bring their own
offer online (like you use a provider to get online yourself) - in such
cases, for the world owners, the laws of the country, in which they
live, apply.



[View Quote]

Jul 21, 2003, 1:30pm

It would now be different, when we would consider AW to be a private
"club" where only members have access - however, it is not since
everybody who wants it can become a member as soon as he paid the
membership fee.

The problem lies here in the detail - whether it is an publicly
accessible offer or not.

A DIFFERENT thing are, for example, "private" worlds, where access is
granted on a case by case base (eg. available only for certain citizen
numbers) - but even there the condition would be that you inform people
right away about the broadcast and storage of personal data (eg. talks).
When they agree and become a "member" of this world, it is ok - when
they not agree, they would have to be rejected as a "member". Some
countries will here require an explicite, not implicite agreement.

Countries with high privacy and personal rights barriers in this regard
are a couple of European countries, so this does not apply, in this
general meaning, to world located (means: owned and/or operated) in
other countries.

This all is probably an academical discussion and the chance of any
lawsuits is quite minimal, but to be on the "safe" side, inform your
visitors about any recordings or storages - using a bot to simply
transform words without storing them and without broadcasting them to
_another_ world (where people who are not actual members of _this_
world) would not be a problem in this regard, though.

Ultimatively, the world owner must decide him/her/themselves what to do
(and what to risk), as with every guestbook or chat room also - this is
not really a typical AW problem. :-)








[View Quote]

Jul 22, 2003, 4:36pm

Nice explanation...

-Mark

[View Quote]

Jul 23, 2003, 3:17am

Oh good heavens! It's the voice of reason..... I was wondering where you
have been!

:)


[View Quote]

Jul 30, 2003, 10:44am

Not to forget:

every single browser has the ability to log conversations, not only
bots. And you never know what the user of that browser will do with
the logs... There is no way a world owner can check this.

Alex

[View Quote] >To explain this a bit more. Since 1998/1999, when bots were created,
>they have the ability to receive chat, and to receive whispers
>adressed to them (and only those ones addressed to them), and receive
>all other AW events. This is because they use the AW SDK. But bots
>don't only use the AW SDK, they have their own code to handle what
>they do with this. It depends on the bot maker what sort of code they
>add (and they MUST add code, otherwise bots would do nothing). They
>could be adding code to send the owner's password to someone, or the
>whole chat to the CIA...
>
>First rule: use bots from trusted makers.
>
>Second rule: NEVER expect that people or bots will do what you want.
>You have, in your own world, the right to select which people and
>which bots you allow in. You do NOT have that right in other worlds.
>
>Whispers seem safe to me. World servers do not log them, and they do
>not go thru the universe server. Telegrams are dangerous: the
>universe server has an option to LOG ALL TELEGRAMS. Chat is open to
>everone: it can be privately logged, sent world wide , published on
>CNN, there is no way to control that.
>
>I'm not trying to put you off, I'm just trying to show you our limits.
>
>Alex
>XelaG - bot maker
>
[View Quote]

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