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Jan 24, 2001, 3:43am

So why did you then post in HTML, idiot? Don't be such a fucking hipocrit.

[View Quote] > Html takes up more space than without it. So that means it can be faster to load messages without html because html uses more.

Jan 25, 2001, 10:34pm

No shit, Sherlock; I wasn't talking TO Roland, but simply ABOUT him TO Rolu. Duh.

[View Quote] > Pssst, that is "Rolu," Roland doesn't post in this newsgroup.
>
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Jan 25, 2001, 10:35pm

I will kill you all one day!&#%&)$# <froth, twitch, drool>

[View Quote] > Most serial killers are actually quite nice people.
>
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Jan 25, 2001, 10:37pm

So only test in ONE (1) newsgroup, if you even have to at all. You COULD simply just respond to an existing post ON-TOPIC, you know.

[View Quote] > testing
> .

Jan 29, 2001, 7:33am

Huh? I've noticed this for months, and have told Roland MANY times, yet he's simply too cluelessly inept to learn how to do floating point math correctly and claims it's a Criterion problem, which I just don't believe. He tried to fix the gap/seam bug when AW3 was released (despite his claim that it also happened in AW 2.2 because I NEVER noticed it before AW3) by adding even smaller object movement increments, but that's a quick-fix for a deeper bug: bad math. Incorrect floating point calculations also account for jerky avatar turning and movement (the latter of which can be easily noticed at high coordinates like in AlphaWorld).

Roland needs to learn math better--PERIOD.

[View Quote] > I don't know why nobody except me and Nathan ever notice this but in AW3.0
> at very large coordinates, the object placement code is VERY unprecise
> missing my a few centimeters. Roland himself even acknowledged this but
> essentially, we got a "live with it" response.

Jan 29, 2001, 3:00pm

Oh yea, "live with it". You (and Roland) obviously don't build much or very detailed then because if so those gaps/seams would REALLY annoy the shit out of you, ESPECIALLY when doing precision object placement. It really kills the realism when objects can't be PERFECTLY flush against each other.

[View Quote] > Thanks for the math session Eep, Roland will not release a version of AW
> until hes sure he is ready to do so, just be patient, usually its for the
> better when its closed. About the gap bug your talking about, I say the
> same of whoever told that to wing, live with it!
>
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Jan 29, 2001, 3:03pm

[View Quote] [View Quote] The same could be said for your spelling and English language comprehension. Anyway, you KNOW what I mean by "60m²" so get the fuck over it, Andras. So I don't put the damn parantheses around "60"--sue me. That still doesn't negate the fact that Roland sucks at floating point calculations.

Jan 30, 2001, 1:39pm

Which cards have you tried that don't show gaps? I'd like some comparison screenshots and proof, please.

[View Quote] > Well different 3d cards handles AW differently. I've tried quite a few and some of them do show annoying gaps, but some don't. I don't think this can be blamed on Roland. Perhaps we should yell at the code because it should *know* what Roland mean!!
>
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Jan 30, 2001, 1:43pm

[View Quote] > Actually ive never encountered it,

Thank you for proving that you don't build intenstively enough to have seen them.

> maby it was the way the objects were designed,

nope

> if in AW, most AW objects were created back like in 2.1/2.2 give
> Roland a break their are more important things that need to be done to keep
> AW up to date (T&L support) which im sure he has been harassed about
> considering a lot of people on AW have a geforce.

While I agree T&L support would be nice, I would rather have this seam problem fixed first. T&L support would be a new feature while the seams are an EXISTING bug. These are the priorities Roland, Rick, and JP don't understand. If anything, Roland should be giving US a break and fix all his damn bugs.

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Jan 30, 2001, 1:36pm

Gee, he almost admits it here. LEARN MATH BETTER, YA TWIT!

[View Quote] > The original syntax was correct. 15 rotations per minute is one rotation
> every 4 seconds. Thus, the object should rotate once for every time the
> object moves out and back (2 seconds out and 2 seconds out).
>
> I suspect the discrepancy that shows up after a few hours is due to
> accumulated floating point rounding errors..
>
> Please so *not* insult other beta users in this forum. Doing so is grounds
> for removal from this and future beta programs.
>
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Feb 1, 2001, 12:34pm

[View Quote] > 1st - I doubt Roland will quit
> 2nd - Having Eep as a "lead programmer" (means the only one) would make a mess :) He is NOT a programmer - just a poor QA engineer with a big ego.

I was a DAMN good QA test engineer. I'd probably still be doing it if all the contracts didn't start requiring programming. I STILL find and submit bugs/suggestions to numerous share-/freeware programmers and have had my ideas implemented many times. AW, ACDSee, UltraEdit, LeapFTP--all of these apps have had suggestions/bugs added/fixed because of me--and those are just the ones I can remember offhand.

As for my ego, it only really surfaces when people like you challenge it, Andras.

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Feb 1, 2001, 12:18pm

Oh puhleaze...I can simply compare other 3D games to AW to see how badly programmed AW is. 3D games USED to have their polygons noticeably "settle into place", but that was a few years ago. As usual, AW (and Roland's programming) is lagging behind the rest of the 3D industry. It's time to get up-to-date, Andras. Played any 3D games within the last 2 years? Might wanna try Half-Life at least...

[View Quote] > Before you insult anyone - go back and learn yourself twit! You can't even distingiush between red and green when it comes to programming! Did you ever write a SINGLE (1) line of code to find out why the floating point/integer conversion looses resolution??? I'm sick of your name calling.
>
> Ops - don't forget the toothbrush - you need it badly (your mouth stinks)!
>
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Feb 1, 2001, 12:24pm

[View Quote] > How far out do you have to go in AW to see the gaps in building?

I don't know about AW since I haven't built there in a while, but gaps are present in Hole and Cubed from GZ on out. Just use a modular ground and put the background color opposite that of the modular ground (so there's contrast) and you should see all the gaps/seams popping out all over.

> I mainly build in private worlds now. Are the gaps universal for all computers?

<shrug> One person recently claimed he didn't see gaps using certain video cards, but I asked for proof and nothing yet. I'm still catching up on the messages so perhaps he responded.

> Also, I know we shouldn't have to live with it, but when do you build in aw?

Only when I'm extremely bored and/or Hole/Cubed are down.

> PS. If you are still upset about not getting in the beta (which I think you
> should be in) maybe you should refer to the line below that says
>
> "Please so *not* insult other beta users in this forum. Doing so is grounds
> for removal from this and future beta programs."

<shrug> I'm not playing suck-up to Roland anymore; his programming ain't worth it and I can't stand his lack of unintuitiveness, vision, and everything else associated with AW's development. In my book it's time for him to move on. He's already told me NUMEROUS times he's had enough of AW. My guess is he's too secure in his job so he doesn't want to look for another job (perhaps because his programming skills aren't up to par with industry standard).

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Feb 1, 2001, 12:27pm

[View Quote] > As for the gap problem, since it only occurs only out in the outer
> regions of AW, (in the 5-digit coord areas) you need to have a sizable
> world in order to see it. So you won't have to worry about it much in
> the smaller, private worlds.

WRONG. Look more carefully. There are NUMEROUS bugs at play here involving floating point rounding errors: avatar movement/turning jerkiness (movement jerkiness increases incrementally out from GZ), gaps (objects not lining up EXACTLY flush), and seams (spaces between objects resulting from object "settling" when the camera is moving).

> I myself haven't tested it, but then, I
> haven't built much in the outer regions either. With what little
> programming experience I have, my guess is Roland just didn't allocate
> enough significant digits for the coordinate system, so when you get
> into the higher numbers, they get rounded off a lot higher. (That, I'm
> assuming, is what he meant by "floating point rounding errors") But
> considering how much resources AW already uses up, would allocating a
> few more digits really help in terms of memory consumption? It adds up
> after a while :-/

I doubt it. I use sometimes up to 8 decimal places in my RWXes and AW doesn't seem slower because of it.

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Feb 1, 2001, 12:38pm

Exactly. See, most people don't even BUILD that exactly, which is why most people don't notice the gaps. Most people also aren't observant enough to notice seams when moving and the object shaking/settling as they slow down (or the avatar jerky movement). It's observations like these that separate the users from the TRUE testers. Most programmers don't even notice these things, which is precisely WHY there is QA in the first place: to find what programmers all too commonly miss with their own damn code. If a programmer loses sight of what his/her code does, s/he isn't a good programmer.

[View Quote] > Note that you usually need to go quite close to see them. Also, you can see
> them better when you move.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2001, 11:00am

I wouldn't say AW is any more precise aside from being able to move objects in finer increments, but gaps still happen even then. Roland has already admitted it's a lack of 32-bit floating point precision that causes objects to not be EXACTLY flush. He said the cell database structure would have to be rewritten to fix it. I say that should be the focus of AW 3.2 since it's LONG overdue and would also allow TRUE multi-axis object rotation without having to use action commands.

AW has MANY MANY old bugs that need fixing FIRST before new features are added, like file transferring, multiple lights, OpenGL support, and, yes, even T&L. DirectSound corrected bugs having to do with using MCI sound (pauses, single WAV-playing, etc), so that was an acceptable feature in my opinion. Also, adding features MANY people want (such as the toggling of online status) should take priority over more mundane features. I don't recall people asking for file transferring, for example.

[View Quote] > Can you put it online somewhere so I can see it myself? It's very possible
> to show stuff with gaps to have no gaps by looking at it from the right
> angle/distance. It is possible that aw3 is more precise of course. But just
> rebuilding a wall/street says nothing. I often had walls that fitted
> perfectly, but then there suddenly was a piece that had a gap (which was
> smaller than even the smallest movement could fix).
>
> By the way, *why* was it a bad example? Just because you couldn't reproduce
> it?
>
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Feb 2, 2001, 11:04am

Yea, and you STILL don't get it. AW has an object position floating point calculation error--PERIOD. All you gotta do is ask Roland about it--it's that simple. Stop being a twit and arguing against something you obviously have no clue about.

[View Quote] > Because if you would have done some research you would find that deleting half the wall, and rebuilding it would show a gap (quite big) between the wall the new and old wall. Just look at the picture. That shows that the wall isn't built properly, either because aw 2.2 is less precise than aw 3.x or perhaps it's built with robobuilder or something. Same goes for the road, rebuild it offline and see for yourself! I've wasted enough time on this as it is...
>
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Feb 2, 2001, 11:29pm

Gee, the time between his hypocracies are getting shorter. Just recently he said non-PCM-encoded WAVs weren't playable in DirectSound, and now a closed beta tester can't even submit a bug report correctly. Are you learning yet Roland or do you need to be smacked down a few more levels before you get a clue? Drive through, twit.

[View Quote] > With bug reports like these (describing a problem that occurred with a
> particular object or type of object) it would help us *enormously* to
> include a link to where the object is stored, or where it can be viewed
> in-world. Remember, 95% of a bug fix is simply being able to reproduce the
> problem. :)
>
> Thanks!
>
[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2001, 11:30pm

Which video card didn't show the gaps/seams? Which does? Do you know what proof means? Put up or shut up.

[View Quote] > I have used another 3d card which showed gaps and seams clearly, but the current one doesn't. This makes me think that some cards show more gaps than others. I can provide two comparative screenshots in a couple of weeks. Or I can take screenshots of places you show me which has gaps. But I ask you to please do some research first, and don't make big points out of structures which "just happens to be there".
>
[View Quote]

Feb 2, 2001, 11:37pm

And WHAT video cards do you have again (and which don't show gaps/seams), aasmund? Is this too difficult a question for you to answer? I've only asked you, what, 3 times now. Get a fucking clue you idiot and stop skirting around the issue. If you can provide support for your bullshit ramblings, shut the fuck up and pipe the hell down. I bet you're on the closed beta, too, eh? Fucking mindless clone...

[View Quote] > Yes that's obviously a bug. Then there's two bugs actually, one with some videocards and one with the database.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 4, 2001, 3:06pm

So do a little searching and you'll find it easily enough. All you have to do is click on "Eep²" on the "file not found" page and there's a "Line/Word Wrap philosophy" link. Anyway, it's http://tnlc.com/eep/wrap.html for the browsing-impaired.

[View Quote] > That link is dead :(
>
[View Quote]

Feb 4, 2001, 3:09pm

Now that's funny since I have a Guillemot 3D Prophet GeForce 256 yet I see seams AND gaps. I don't see how the same chip can be different in its floating point calculations.

Anyone else not see seams and/or gaps? Be sure you understand what they are before responding. If so, state your video card if you see them.

[View Quote] > If you insist:
> seams: Rage fury pro - xpert 2000 pro
> no seams: Leadtek Nvidia Geforce 256
>
> I'll provide some screenshots later on.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 4, 2001, 3:14pm

I don't like ANY rounding off because there will STILL be seams/gaps. I'd just rather have object placement done RIGHT instead of trying some half-assed, inexact method. Try looking around with the mouse REALLY slowly and you should see everything shake slightly (get real close to things). This seems to be related to avatar movement/rotation jerkiness, gaps, and seams too.

The more people who notice these things, the more they'll likely mention them to Roland, which hopefully means he'll actually fix it.

[View Quote] > Actually, I think object placement should become less accurate. At the
> moment, the accuracy is larger than what you can correct using even the
> smallest movements, so if an object ends up somewhere where it doesn't
> completely touch another object, you can't fix it. On the other hand, if the
> objects would snap to a grid with an interval equal to the smallest movement
> possible, they would always fit (as long as you build straight). To be able
> to position rotated objects where you want, there should be an even finer
> control as there is now. Moving normal does 1/10th of a cell length iirc,
> shift-move does 1/100th, and there should be something like
> ctrl-(shift-)move to move things 1/1000th of a cell length, and every object
> you build should be positioned at a whole amount of 1/1000th of a cell
> length. This would be very easy to do, when you move something just perform
> the regular calculations and then round it's new coord to 1/1000th of a cell
> length.
>
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Feb 5, 2001, 7:58am

You're "funny", Assmunch. You reply to a post about your inability to post video cards exhibiting gaps/seams BETWEEN objects (which is what I, Rolu, Wing, and everyone else in this thread--except you, apparently--have been talking about since its inception) to some arbitrary bug about seams in objects. While I've only really noticed the (intra)OBJECT seams in Casay's Lincoln Log set, I see the (inter)object (between) seams/gaps ALL the time. Let's stick to the more important and noticeable bug of the two, eh? But I'm sure they're related to the same shitty math.

Anyway, have more coherence in your replies.

[View Quote] > You should've known by now that I'm not talking about that bug, please reread this:
>
> "Because as I've stated there's two different bugs at play. One with inaccurate position (tried to ask Roland about this, he just said it was complicated) and one
> with SEAMS (within objects). The seambug is quite rare I think, but I will post a bug report on it. The other, well, it didn't sound like Roland was going to fix
> it any time soon, so I guess you'll just have to learn to live with it."
>
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Feb 6, 2001, 11:20pm

And by quoting all of it you're not helping either, Tony...

[View Quote] > STOP posting in HTML.. Eep had a point. your last 2 messages were 13kb
> and 18kb

Feb 10, 2001, 9:09pm

Please don't post in HTML, especially to only add a single line to a long quoted message. 430 lines compared to ~50 lines is less annoying, not to mention no forced background colors and font sizes.

[View Quote] > If Active worlds is a CHAT UTILITY then why isn't the CHAT UTILITY of better quality, at least comparable to other chat utilities. As it stands it can only be called mediocre in that area.

Feb 6, 2001, 5:08am

Well keep at it. And you other people reading this don't let up either. The more Roland, HamFon, and the rest of AWCI know that we won't accept half-assed programming, the more likely they'll spend more time to do it right the first time.

[View Quote] > Been there, done that.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 6, 2001, 4:59pm

AW is down YET AGAIN...outage after outage...first it was a "bad motherboard", then it was Facter fucking with the newsgroups, and now it's AW's ISP. What's the common variable? AWCI. It's obvious whoever's running AWCI's hardware is incompetent and shouldn't be. How about getting a RELIABLE service provider, Rick, JP, Roland, et al? Oh, wait, that would be too logical, eh? Idiots...

Feb 6, 2001, 11:14pm

[View Quote] > Well,
>
> Actually the problem has nothing to do with us -

You (AWCI) employee the services of an obviously incompetent host, Facter. The problem has EVERYTHING to do with AWCI.

> there was a bad switch at
> the host site , its in the process of being fixed, and it should be back up
> very soon - if it isnt already. Unfortunatly, they had another hardware
> problem, something of which we can only say we apologise for their problems.

Since mpl.net is continually proving inept, why not get a better host? Duh.

> Eep, you really need to know what you are talking about before you go off
> like that. Hostility towards me is very un-necessary.

How am I being hostile to you? You were fucking with the newsgroups, right? Yep.

> Also, the newgroups
> are on a completely un-related server to the rest of the AW universe, they
> are not even located in the same physical area - it was down for about two
> or three hours while we did some work on it - and, come on, its only a
> newsgroup. I wasnt "fu*$ing" with anything - it was actually being fixed - I
> also explained all of this to you in an email and on the actual webpages -

Oh yea, some "explanation". "The newsgroups are down and will be back up shortly." or some other bullshit statement. Give me a fucking break, Facter. Before you got sucked into AWCI's tangled web you wouldn't take such a bullshit statement (no reason there, by the way) in an instant. You've changed, man...you went over to the dark side...

> would you prefer I *fixed* the newsgroups, or would you prefer the problem
> to of gotten worse and had no newsgroups for an even longer amount of time,
> if at all (due to the nature of the problem)?

I would prefer the newsgroups run correctly in the first place without them spontaneously "failing" for no explained reason, which you STILL haven't stated...

> I believe I did my job well,
> as I usually do, and I also admit when I make mistakes. People were informed
> that the newsgroups were going down via our webpages, which is the standard
> way we inform our users of any kind of network outages - there is no other
> efficient way of doing so than that.

There isn't? How about posting a newsgroup post first? I was still able to READ the newsgroups; the problem was in POSTING to them. Had there been a message from you or some other clueless AWCIer about the newsgroup POSTING problem, I would not have had to email AWCI "support".

> I myself prefered to fix them, thus allowing everyone to actually be able to
> use them - I am sorry if you dont feel the same and would of prefered for
> the newsgroups to of been damaged - and, if taking them down for a short
> amount of time to fix them is wrong, well, then I am guilty of making
> something work better.

Hence you were fucking with them. How did they go down again? You never did (conviently) say...

> I reply to you out of courtesy, and you should try to do the same - because
> it is actually my choice to reply to you or not. In this case, you do not
> know the facts so I am kindly pointing them out to you -

Which are WHAT again? You still haven't said...<yawn>

> but, if you wish to also be dealt with respect by myself, then you will yourself show a little
> respect in return. I do not ask you to like myself, or the company, but I do
> expect to be treated with respect and dignity for the help that I give to
> you, and to other members of Activeworlds. The newsgroups are provided for
> AW users to post, but as AW Support, I am under no obligation whatsoever to
> reply to anything in here, as it is our company policy that all support is
> to be handled in email for tracking purposes. I have been posting in this
> newsgroups as a citizen since well before you yourself turned up in here
> anyways, so I actually enjoy posting here and helping people out with a
> little extra information here and there. But, again, I am under *no*
> obligation to do so whatsoever.

> If there is no mutual respect, then there will be no further correspondance
> between yourself and I.
>
> I may even stop posting in these newsgroups (sorry everyone else) - As I
> said, I do so out of a wish to help and assist users of the Activeworlds
> software in my personal time (time posting in here is done in my breaks, and
> is not a part of my normal work practice nor is ever considered such), not
> to be disrespected in such a manner as yours.
>
> This is my last say on this matter, and further discussion will not be
> entered into.

Blah blah blah, you sure you aren't a politician or lawyer, Facter? Perhaps a bullshit artist? Yep, that's what I'd say. Rick and JP are teaching you well, it seems...fucking clone.

[View Quote]

Feb 6, 2001, 11:17pm

Sure, one word: bullshit. Next...

[View Quote] > That's too long for me to read with my current 1st grade reading level. Is
> there a way you can summarize it?
>
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