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What's your preference - traditional or mocap?
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What's your preference - traditional or mocap? // Roundtable
Post by mrbones // Mar 11, 2006, 12:43pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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I wouldnt characterize Mocap the way you are.
1. Have you ever seen mocap on a non porpotional or cute character?
2. Looks likincluding principles of animation techniques like squash and stretch or jiggle. You can even program the data to look like the stop motion claymation. Harry Hausen Style.
3.Actor ability certainly enhances the credibility as a performance however once the data is fed in, all kinds of things can be done to change or tweak that exsisting performance to perfection, kind of like midi for music. You dont have to sacrafice the whole performance just for hitting a bad note or two.
4. No limitations of whats in library as many motions can be mixed together for millions of possible variations. I could also create a dancing spider simply by adding more appendages to the skeleton, all while not destroying the current animation underneath. That makes possible to animate those extra bones non linearly.
5. Not limited by movement or translation in space because this is handled easily with paths, which can be scaled to desired lenth of jump distance, trajectory, foot slip or grip. etc.etc.
6. There may be some bad keyframes or jitters, however those can be easily deleted, hence solving the jitter problem quite easily.
Cheers
As you may have read, some users haven't tried a lot of hand-keyed animation either, BUT they are familiar with how mocap is often regarded when it comes to character animation.
MoCap PROS:
Looks like real-life motion (may be good for games but not so good for character animation)
Gets the job done quicker (usually)
MoCap CONS:
Looks like real-life motion (if you're going for EXPRESSIVE / EXAGGERATED animation then that's a drawback in this case)
Mocap animation is only as good as the actor (not everybody has Andy Serkis at their disposal)
May require adjusting several keyframes to get it right
Limited by what's available in your library (ie. If your character is a standard biped, you can have him dance, do karate kicks, the whole nine yards.....but forget animating a dancing spider with mocap)
Limited by the mocap'd movement itself (ie. Want your character to run 15 yards, leap a few feet, and land at a specific point? Better hope you have it in your library - otherwise you'll have to change your props and environment to work around the recorded motion.)
"Foot-slide" - Sometimes looks like the character's feet are skating around
Potential jitter
Many of he top character animators didn't regard rotoscoping very highly, and this is basically the same as mocap (actually, it takes more work to rotoscope, but it's still the same - limiting your character to the moves of an actor) |
Post by Alien // Mar 11, 2006, 1:15pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Of course, you're completely unbiased on this issue, eh MrBones? :D |
Post by mrbones // Mar 11, 2006, 1:16pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Of Course, Completely, Well maybee a little. Just not as biased as Frank is against mocap.
Of course, you're completely unbiased on this issue, eh MrBones? :D |
Post by mrbones // Mar 11, 2006, 1:27pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Frank,
Are you basing your statements on fact or experience?
Forgive me but its hard for me to take you seriously when it sounds like you are just throwing out random unfounded statements.
There are no limitations on utilizing mocap data once its captured, except for your imagination.
And it is getting easier to Rotoscope (almost not even nessecary anymore.) which means less work.
Your attitude determines your altitude.
Cheers
(actually, it takes more work to rotoscope, but it's still the same - limiting your character to the moves of an actor) |
Post by frank // Mar 11, 2006, 2:13pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Frank,
Are you basing your statements on fact or experience?
Forgive me but its hard for me to take you seriously when it sounds like you are just throwing out random unfounded statements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
(actually, it takes more work to rotoscope, but it's still the same - limiting your character to the moves of an actor)
No, these are certainly not random statements. Why do you think that?
It takes more work to rotoscope* than to use mocap BECAUSE you have to manually match the character against the actor in the 2D footage. With mocap, the movement of the actor is recorded for you. However, in both cases the animation is based solely on the actor's movements (thus limiting the character) - so they are similar in this regard.
alien: Of course, you're completely unbiased on this issue, eh MrBones?
...
mrbones: Of Course, Completely, Well maybee a little. Just not as biased as Frank is against mocap.
mrbones, if people use traditional keyframed methods to animate their characters, I don't make any money from it. (ie. I don't sell plugins.) ...so it's not like I'm on a crusade to win people over or anything. I just happen to feel strongly that keyframed animation is superior to mocap when it comes to character animation in film / stories. (...but as the guy from Reading Rainbow says, 'You don't have to take my word for it.' Just do some searching to find out what industry professionals at places like Pixar and PDI think about using strictly-mocap.)
This poll is to see what trueSpace users prefer. If a majority of us would rather hand-key than use mocap, then I think Caligari should focus on that for 7.5's animation tools.
* NOTE: Rotoscope means two things. The definition I'm using here is to draw (2D) or position (3D) a character against a live-action backplate. The second definition is to track an object in moving footage using mattes with the intention of removing the object. |
Post by Alien // Mar 11, 2006, 3:10pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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* NOTE: Rotoscope means two things. The definition I'm using here is to draw (2D) or position (3D) a character against a live-action backplate. The second definition is to track an object in moving footage using mattes with the intention of removing the object.
Thanks for that Frank, I wasn't aware that that was what Rotoscoping was. It seems that I'm going to have to do a bit of that in a future project, as the 3D character will need to perform the same movements as a person in a short piece of video. Luckily the original video is only about 15 seconds long, so [hopefully] it won't be too arduous. :) |
Post by frank // Mar 11, 2006, 3:19pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Alien: It seems that I'm going to have to do a bit of that in a future project, as the 3D character will need to perform the same movements as a person in a short piece of video.
Be sure to post a link for us to check it out when finished!
Also, for a trueSpace example of rotoscoping, go to the following link and scroll down do the "Rotoscope Flip" video:
http://www.pixelfu.com/MotionStudio/Gallery.html
This was done with MotionStudio, but it applies just as well to tS's native bones or anything else.
Hope this helps! |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 11, 2006, 3:24pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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The idea of creating a motion from scratch intrigues me more than the mocap methods. Fleischer basically created rotoscoping and the old Superman cartoons of the 40's look awesome (still better than some stuff today), of course then you have cartoons like He-man that kind of made the action look cheesy. I loved He-man as a kid too tho'.
Maybe we need both... |
Post by frank // Mar 11, 2006, 3:30pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Yeah, I was into He-man back in the day as well. :) I also really liked Thundercats. I still like the intro music to that cartoon. LOL!
Naes3D: Fleischer basically created rotoscoping and the old Superman cartoons of the 40's look awesome
I've seen some of those old Superman cartoons. I know exactly what you mean. Ralph Bakshi's was into this style as well.
Also, I believe Don Bluth used it a lot (Secret of Nimh, Titan AE, etc.)
...and of course, there was Disney's Snow White. |
Post by Alien // Mar 11, 2006, 3:32pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Be sure to post a link for us to check it out when finished!
If it's ever finished. Unfortunately, I seem to be very good at procrastinating. :o
Also, for a trueSpace example of rotoscoping, go to the following link and scroll down do the "Rotoscope Flip" video:
http://www.pixelfu.com/MotionStudio/Gallery.html
This was done with MotionStudio, but it applies just as well to tS's native bones or anything else.
Hope this helps!
Weird, I've seen that before, but for some reason I thought it was done with Puppeteer [which I got when there was a sale/offer on the various Paks, but haven't got round to trying yet].
Re: my project - don't hold your breath waiting for it. :) It's quite an ambitious 1 [maybe even too ambitious :(], but I haven't really begun it yet - well I started on 1 model, but then decided I wanted to take a slightly different approach, which requires a start from scratch - which I've been putting off. :o As to posting a link - I'll do better than that, if it turns out to my satisfaction I'll be entering it in the monthly comp. |
Post by frank // Mar 11, 2006, 3:36pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Alien: As to posting a link - I'll do better than that, if it turns out to my satisfaction I'll be entering it in the monthly comp.
There you go!
I have a couple of ideas myself but...I'm in the same boat: If I get around to doing them.
:) |
Post by mrbones // Mar 11, 2006, 3:36pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Low blow Frank,
Neither am I on a crusade.. Just because I make money from using TrueSpace doesnt influence my opinion on character animation techniques.
And theres plenty of paid animators out there too. So whats your point?
mrbones, if people use traditional keyframed methods to animate their characters, I don't make any money from it. (ie. I don't sell plugins.) ...so it's not like I'm on a crusade to win people over or anything. |
Post by frank // Mar 11, 2006, 3:45pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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mrbones: Low blow Frank,
Neither am I on a crusade.. Just because I make money from using TrueSpace doesnt influence my opinion on character animation techniques.
And theres plenty of paid animators out there too. So whats your point?
Sorry, Joe! Wasn't intended to be a low blow. Just saying that I don't really gain from folks using regular ol' animation techniques - so I don't have a motive.
For instance - I frequently recommend MotionStudio to trueSpacers but I don't get any sort of monetary compensation...I just really believe it's a quality plugin for C.A. and want to share it with other people.
:) |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 11, 2006, 3:47pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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Frank, don't even get me started on the Thundercats.
That show has 2 items on my top 10 things I wish to model (Lion-o and the Sword of Omens/Claw Shield). Okay maybe 3.
Anyway, there has been mixed success with rotoscoping in Hollywood IMO. Some of the stuff just... doesn't... look... good. Sometimes tho it's so good studios won't even admit they use it. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 11, 2006, 3:52pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Frank I know that and of the things you say really dont make sense to me either.
Must be that I have a motive for promoting TrueSpace as well.
Sheesh...:(
P.S. I would go as far as saying that mostu is not that great of a plug-in.. Kind of expensive, hard to rigg and use, Limited customer support or upgrades, cannot transfer it to another computer without... etc etc.. So I really dont understand why you promote it like its the gospel of character animation.
Sorry, Joe! Wasn't intended to be a low blow. Just saying that I don't really gain from folks using regular ol' animation techniques - so I don't have a motive.
For instance - I frequently recommend MotionStudio to trueSpacers but I don't get any sort of monetary compensation...I just really believe it's a quality plugin for C.A. and want to share it with other people.
:) |
Post by frank // Mar 11, 2006, 3:58pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Naes3D: Frank, don't even get me started on the Thundercats.
That show has 2 items on my top 10 things I wish to model (Lion-o and the Sword of Omens/Claw Shield). Okay maybe 3.
Ha ha!
Naes3D: Some of the stuff just... doesn't... look... good. Sometimes tho it's so good studios won't even admit they use it.
I have to agree here. I'm not a big Ralph Bakshi fan but I have seen his animated version of LoTR, as well as some of Wizards (never watched any of his other works)...and I don't really prefer his style of rotoscoping. It looks a bit...."stroby" to me.
However, I think rotoscoping looks good in any of Don Bluth's films.
There is a happy medium somewhere in there. Looking at reference is a must if you want your character to act in a way that the audience registers as 'acceptable'. ...but I don't think the character should be constrained so tightly to the reference footage. You can use it for timing - hitting the key moves at certain points - but at those points you can push the motion a bit further.
When you are drawing a caricature of someone, you take the key landmarks/features of their face that give them their 'look' or 'character' and you over-exaggerate those (big nose, big ears, etc...).
I think the character's motion should be a caricature of the reference footage. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 11, 2006, 3:59pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Heh, rotoscope. :)
I built my own rotoscope box many years ago. I had it above a TV/VCR connection. I would stop the video where there was an action and draw the figure. The problem was I had no frame to frame advancer, so I had to do a lot of my own "tweening." I would then use the acetate transparent film I had to draw the figure on (box was wood with a glass plate)
The old method of rotoscoping actually used live humans, later on they used film as the background. Disney had an advanced rotoscope with many glass plates stacked up at precise distances. A mobile camera with a good depth of field lense would shoot through the many glass plants for the "3D" illusion of objects at different levels. This innovated introduction into layering is still used today, but on computers and dedicated video processors.
The problem with being a stand alone animator is that unless you have a Studio size library of motions, you are more or less stuck with key frame editing.
For instance, a man walks up to a tree, stopping to talk to a friend, then talking while swinging his axe is quite a number of frames to animate. All inclusive, mouth phoems, arm movement, facial expression, shrugs, stances, poses, action, perspectives, etc etc. It's a lot of work for one individual!
:)
Forgot to add about camera view. With camera's available in almost all 3D programs like trueSpace, it makes it so much easier. You can hide a lot of animation sins with camera views. :) |
Post by frank // Mar 11, 2006, 4:02pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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mrbones: Frank I know that and of the things you say really dont make sense to me either.
You may have to re-phrase that for me. :)
mrbones: P.S. I would go as far as saying that mostu is not that great of a plug-in.. Kind of expensive, hard to rigg and use, Limited customer support or upgrades, cannot transfer it to another computer without... etc etc.. So I really dont understand why you promote it like its the gospel of character animation.
You left out the part about weighted vertices, multiple nails, mark/register, pose mixing, parenting, rock-solid stability, etc... :) |
Post by mrbones // Mar 11, 2006, 4:05pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Yea Ok Frank, Whatever...:rolleyes:
You may have to re-phrase that for me. :)
You left out the part about weighted-vertices, multiple nails, mark/register, pose-mixing, etc... :) |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 11, 2006, 4:06pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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Yeah I agree about Bakshi's rotoscopes. Sometimes the rotoscoping interupts the flow of the rest of the animation. That happened alot in He-man. Tho the scenes where Teela would drop down in front of the camera were....
...soooo...yeah.
A happy medium. I can dig it. |
Post by Alien // Mar 11, 2006, 4:07pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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There you go!
I have a couple of ideas myself but...I'm in the same boat: If I get around to doing them.
:)
Yeah, I keep getting an acute case of CBA*.
*CBA = Can't Be Arsed. :D |
Post by frank // Mar 11, 2006, 4:14pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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jamesmc: For instance, a man walks up to a tree, stopping to talk to a friend, then talking while swinging his axe is quite a number of frames to animate. All inclusive, mouth phoems, arm movement, facial expression, shrugs, stances, poses, action, perspectives, etc etc. It's a lot of work for one individual!
You said it - lot of work. :) It's very rewarding, though.
Naes3D: Sometimes the rotoscoping interupts the flow of the rest of the animation.
Yeah, maybe if it wasn't a hybrid, but one-or-the-other then it would work better. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 11, 2006, 4:23pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Frank, No matter what character animation in any form (especially good character animation) is a LOT of hard work. For instance I worked hard to create an extensive motion library for trueSpace users. That was my intention to save them immense amount of animation headache, Would you respect it more if I gave it away freely? Or would you think I was being too nice. I guess my point is how can I win? Cant you see that all we need is unity to grow? I can also say that all the hard work was very rewarding, Just not monetary either.
The Hybrid Animation is a good idea, A good analogy would be the way synths were introduced as instruments..
Talk about metaphors, wouldnt it be cool to synthesize motions? Well thats kind of possible right now with clips in the kfe.
http://www.digidesign.com
You said it - lot of work. :) It's very rewarding, though.
Yeah, maybe if it wasn't a hybrid, but one-or-the-other then it would work. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 11, 2006, 4:37pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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Are we not united again?
I don't think that Frank is saying that we should kill off MoCap methods as much as trying to demonstrate to Caligari that handkeying methods are what the users prefer as something to keep in mind while they are working on 7.5 animation stuff.
As long as you are pleased with the end result then use whatever method you prefer. This isn' t a contest I hope.
I think we all appreciate what you are doing MrBones. If not for MotionStudio and your set of plugins, I don't think anybody would even know that tS could do animation given the weakness of the native tools. |
Post by frank // Mar 11, 2006, 4:53pm
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frank
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Naes3d: Are we not united again?
I don't think that Frank is saying that we should kill off MoCap methods as much as trying to demonstrate to Caligari that handkeying methods are what the users prefer as something to keep in mind while they are working on 7.5 animation stuff.
Exactly!
Naes 3d: As long as you are pleased with the end result then use whatever method you prefer. This isn' t a contest I hope.
I think we all appreciate what you are doing MrBones. If not for MotionStudio and your set of plugins, I don't think anybody would even know that tS could do animation given the weakness of the native tools.
Well said. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 11, 2006, 5:05pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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I wouldnt say they as it is we, who is working on 7.5.
Let me remind folks, Vote for Motion Capture. We are catching up.
:banana: for president!
Cheers
something to keep in mind while they are working on 7.5 animation stuff. |
Post by rj0 // Mar 11, 2006, 9:21pm
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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I think we all appreciate what you are doing MrBones. If not for MotionStudio and your set of plugins, I don't think anybody would even know that tS could do animation given the weakness of the native tools.
Heartily agree. My thanks also.
Browsing through my Cinefex issues I see that the industry discussion and consideration of trade-offs between MoCap and key-frame clearly are still ongoing. In DareDevil (April 2003 Cinefex, issue 93), for example, they apparently seriously considered using MoCap, but, for pretty much the reasons I mentioned previously, ultimately decided to stay with key-frame. In Matrix Reloaded, however, they made quite a bit of use of MoCap, in combination with key-frame and physics-based animation (Oct. 2003 Cinefex, issue 95). So it's clearly still a very live issue, and with tools getting more sophisticated ...
rj |
Post by mrbones // Mar 12, 2006, 4:21am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Many thanks, I appreciate your kind words.
Cheers
Heartily agree. My thanks also.
rj |
Post by mrbones // Mar 12, 2006, 4:23am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Thanks for your appreciation.
Cheers
I think we all appreciate what you are doing MrBones. If not for MotionStudio and your set of plugins, I don't think anybody would even know that tS could do animation given the weakness of the native tools. |
Post by hultek43 // Mar 12, 2006, 4:43am
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hultek43
Total Posts: 234
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Well, I didn't vote because the choice I would have chosen was not offered.;)
Either method could be used to pose a character for a still image. This 'ability' is almost needed, to produce a good looking still, if it contains more than normally 'static' objects (vases, doorstops, etc.), which do not move without some type of intervention.
I've successfully animated a cameras motion, fairly simple things rotating and some vertex animation; Played some with animating NURBS.
It seems there's little apparent need for the use of any type of software in 'my neck of the woods', unless we count sending e-mails which don't always get the type of response I desire (as simple as a brief reply in most cases).:( |
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