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What's your preference - traditional or mocap?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
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What's your preference - traditional or mocap? // Roundtable
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 1:36pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Frank promoted a workaround, but it doesnt work?
Hmmm...
Frank?
I think Frank has some form of a work around ..but it doesn't actually work in ts7..you know load plugin..make bones attach to skin..it won't do that..or anything much else..don't try saving the scene in ts7.. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 1:39pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Roman,
Will you vote for Mocap?
Thanks again and Cheers
Mr. Bones
_[]_
Ojo
(m) |
Post by frank // Mar 13, 2006, 1:48pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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The workaround for MoStu -> trueSpace7 was to convert the MoStu animation into vertex keyframes. It works.
Mr. Bones: The stability and power of MotionStudio have yet to be matched. Whether Scott has abandoned it or not - that fact still remains. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 1:52pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Haha Frank, Nice try.
Words like power and stability are completely subjective and open to endless debates on wether its unmatched or not.
I could simply state that MagicBones is faster than Mostu, (which is true anyways).
And still win in the workflow, ease of use, get the job done catagorys..
MagicBones and Motion Capture is also very powerful and stable too as well..
Haha you make me laugh Frank
Cheers |
Post by stan // Mar 13, 2006, 1:56pm
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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Frank..I read your work around thread..but sadly mostudio doesn't work in ts7..think we can safely say that..and yes it's a shame..I really liked it .. |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 1:57pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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MrBones: by any chance do you own a purple animal-skin hat, perhaps with a feather in it? ;) |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 1:59pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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What kind of question is that? Is that a metaphor?
And who gave another vote to Traditional?
Cheers
MrBones: by any chance do you own a purple animal-skin hat, perhaps with a feather in it? ;) |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 2:08pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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What kind of question is that? Is that a metaphor?
Well, I just figured, given how much you keep pimping mocap... :D
And who gave another vote to Traditional?
Someone with common sense? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying mocap doesn't have its place, but that tends to be for situations where it saves time & effort, eg a crowd, etc. For stuff like posing a figure or very specific animations, traditional just makes more sense than mocap. If you really want to know who's voted for what, just click on the numbers next to the votes & you'll be able to see who voted for what, as it's not a private poll.
Spite, Its a disease.
I very much doubt spite had anything to do with the decision made by whoever voted most recently. I'm starting to think you're taking this a tad too personally. |
Post by frank // Mar 13, 2006, 2:08pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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mrbones: Words like power and stability are completely subjective and open to endless debates on wether its unmatched or not.
Power = multiple nails, weighted vertices, mark/register, parenting, easy rigging, pose mixing, etc...
Stability = never caused a crash in tS
I wouldn't call it subjective now.
stan: Frank..I read your work around thread..but sadly mostudio doesn't work in ts7..think we can safely say that..and yes it's a shame..I really liked it ..
Scott sent a few of us a new release of MotionStudio (1.1.0.2). The drag-n-drop skin on skeleton issue is fixed and now works in trueSpace 7. :) I'm not sure when he'll release it to the public, or what other features he may be working on though - but that's good news at least.
mrbones: I could simply state that MagicBones is faster than Mostu, (which is true anyways).
I thought MagicBones was a library of mocap'd skeletons - not a plugin.
Besides, isn't that an "apples and oranges" comparison given the functions of both? |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 2:20pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Hey I resemble that remark...:cool: Maybee I should change my hat on the site.
Speed or Faster always makes sense to me.
As far as taking it all too personal, Nawww, Not me.
Cheers
Well, I just figured, given how much you keep pimping mocap... :D
Someone with common sense? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying mocap doesn't have its place, but that tends to be for situations where it saves time & effort, eg a crowd, etc. For stuff like posing a figure or very specific animations, traditional just makes more sense than mocap. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 2:22pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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They are, and they are still, Faster. Better, Easier to Use..Etc, Etc,
Cheers
I thought MagicBones was a library of mocap'd skeletons - not a plugin.
Besides, isn't that an "apples and oranges" comparison given the functions of both? |
Post by pete massaro // Mar 13, 2006, 2:26pm
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pete massaro
Total Posts: 7
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OK
I don't want to get pulled into a flame here so I'll de-cloak state my case and run away...
If I where going to make serious animation I would want every tool availible so that I could get the effect I wanted for any given task.
If I wanted the animation to convey human realism, I (read: me personally) would use MOCAP for labor intensive things like facial expressions etc. The goal would be to get the best effect for the least work.
On the other hand... Lets say I was animating the panoramic view of a futuristic city the camera is perched far above and I can see air and ground traffic, moving around crowded buildings. streets filled with the the tired masses moving on foot... I'd keyframed the whole thing...
NO WAIT ... I'd script the whole thing in the new link editor...
Hmm Maybe I'd use script to play MOCAP and Physics to give the traffic and air vehicles real dynamics...
Hmm none of that fits the definition of this poll
I vote Neither and Both
Pete
http://home.comcast.net/~petemass/nanna.gif |
Post by trueBlue // Mar 13, 2006, 2:27pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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I vote for all three!
#1.) trueSpace7.5...next-generation character animation tools at no charge later on their release.
2.) Traditional.
3.) Motion capture. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 2:30pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Pete, True and Roman,
Voting for Mocap means voting for better animation tools in TS7.5.
I strongly urge you to sway your voting descision.
Cheers |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 2:30pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Hey I resemble that remark...:cool:
I know, hence the comment. :D
Speed or Faster always makes sense to me.
Yes, but there are times when mocap doesn't make sense. You may be able to pose a still character in a particular pose with your library of motions, etc, but if you have a specific pose in mind you'd have to go hunting through your library of motions, then presumably apply 1 that included the pose & run it until it got to the specific pose & stop it there? With traditional you just position the limbs, etc where you want them. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 2:34pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Not much hunting invloved, All Motions are identifyed and labled accordingly.
A simple search or mouse scan over the library contents should reveal the one your looking for quite quickly.
Sometimes its much more difficult to get that perfect pose via IK, then to just scroll real fast to frame #66 and then press render.
Cheers
Yes, but there are times when mocap doesn't make sense. You may be able to pose a still character in a particular pose with your library of motions, etc, but if you have a specific pose in mind you'd have to go hunting through your library of motions, then presumably apply 1 that included the pose & run it until it got to the specific pose & stop it there? With traditional you just position the limbs, etc where you want them. |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 2:35pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Voting for Mocap means voting for better animation tools in TS7.5.
No, it doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising mocap, or even saying tS shouldn't have mocap, what I'm saying is that 1st & foremost they should get the traditional animation right, then focus on any extra types of animation features [eg mocap]. tS needs proper, fully working, traditional animation tools. Mocap would be a nice bonus/icing on the cake - but it's simply not as important. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 13, 2006, 2:35pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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Let me see if I can explain how I feel without writing volumes of text (disclaimer: this is just my opinion).
The traditional method represents the proverbial straight line between two points: the emotion you are trying to convey and the visual representation of your vision.
I brought up the example of He-man. If you remember the show, you might remember the scenes when He-man had to run somewhere and no matter how urgent the matter he would run with an almost straight up and down jog like gait. Basically, it was pretty emotionless. Now imagine what Daffy Duck looked like while he was running from Porky Pig. The point is not to say which is more realistic, but which one is truer to the emotion of the situation.
If you have ever read the book How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way, you are probably familiar with the section where Stan Lee analyzes 2 of John Buscema's drawings of the same pose calling one a 'plain vanilla' rendering and the other 'Mighty Marvel Mayhem in the Making' (or some such superlative monikers). That is lot like the difference between key-framed and mocap animations. No matter how well the motion is captured, it is not necessarilly going to capture the emotion or personality of your character. Hand Keying it lets you directly express it.
Besides, if you are the one who is in the position of wearing all the hats in your studio, the traditional methods will definitely be more cost effective.
Hope all that rambling made sense... |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 2:39pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Vote Mocap, Vote for Change.:banana: |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 2:45pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Vote Mocap, Vote for Change.:banana:
Change is not always a good thing. Looking at the poll results it would seem most people who've voted just don't agree with you. |
Post by frank // Mar 13, 2006, 2:48pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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mrbones: Voting for Mocap means voting for better animation tools in TS7.5.
Says Mr. Bones.
Alien: No, it doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising mocap, or even saying tS shouldn't have mocap, what I'm saying is that 1st & foremost they should get the traditional animation right, then focus on any extra types of animation features [eg mocap]. tS needs proper, fully working, traditional animation tools. Mocap would be a nice bonus/icing on the cake - but it's simply not as important.
I certainly agree with that one. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 13, 2006, 2:53pm
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Naes3d
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You are sounding like a politician mrbones LOL.
Are you going to tell us you did not have relations with that handkeyed animation? The people want to know.... |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 3:01pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Maybe he used it, but didn't inhale it's usefulness? :D |
Post by frank // Mar 13, 2006, 3:03pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Ok Mr. Bones...instead of you and I going round-and-round on this like we always do (in this forum, gamespace, betaspace, #truespace channel, etc...), let me set forth a challenge and I want you to tell me how to do it with a mocap library.
I have a duck character that I want to walk several yards, hop up on a diving board, waddle forward a few feet, take a couple of bounces, and dive into a pool.
How can this be done with a mocap library?
First, the set is already built and the distances the duck has to walk are planned out. Will the data in the mocap library fill in those gaps precisely? (Or will you have to re-do the set to work around what mocap stuff is available?)
I think a mocap library fails with the word 'duck'. Do you have any mocap data for ducks?
I hear you say "But wait - a human in a mocap suit can act out the duck motions." Sure - but we're talking about a pre-built mocap library. I don't think many folks have mocap equipment at their disposal.
So what you do is re-write your story to work with the mocap library. Instead of it being about a duck, change it to something like .... the story of a jittery man who enjoys doing karate kicks for no practical reason. ...oh, and he does the moonwalk without even realizing it!
Hopefully you see my point.
:) |
Post by noko // Mar 13, 2006, 4:47pm
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noko
Total Posts: 684
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jitter? what jitter? The jitter bug animation??? :confused:
Happy magic bone customer ;). More, I need more and more motions... |
Post by frank // Mar 13, 2006, 4:56pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Looks like the duck animation has Mr. Bones stumped. He usually responds faster than this. ;)
noko: jitter? what jitter? The jitter bug animation???
There ya go! We need some jitterbug animations! LOL!
:)
Really the jitter isn't nearly as bad as the 'moonwalk' phenomenon.
For an example, go here and check out the "Al Jolsen" dance. While a cool-looking mocap piece, it clearly shows foot slide:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=4496
Hopefully I've illustrated the fact that mocap is limited whereas with keyframed animation, you can animate whatever you want and have full control over it. |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 5:11pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I've illustrated the fact that mocap is limited whereas with keyframed animation, you can animate whatever you want and have full control over it.
Illustrating the point is easy, getting MrBones to concede said point is not. :( |
Post by stan // Mar 13, 2006, 5:20pm
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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if mostudio is getting fixed to work in ts7..it would be great to get Scott & mrbones togeather .. mocap for mostudio ..best of both worlds :D |
Post by Johny // Mar 13, 2006, 5:55pm
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Johny
Total Posts: 672
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I voted for Hand-Keyed/Traditional, because I never use Motion Capture before ;) |
Post by frank // Mar 13, 2006, 6:03pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Johny: I voted for Hand-Keyed/Traditional, because I never use Motion Capture before
:)
How's your "Mr. Resistor" animation coming along, by the way? |
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