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What's your preference - traditional or mocap?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
What's your preference - traditional or mocap? // Roundtable
Post by rj0 // Mar 13, 2006, 6:07pm
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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I think Mr. Bones is off trying to figure how to get a duck in a MoCap suit -).
Seriously, I love MoCap. Nothing else can give you such realistic moves or poses. But only production studios and MoCap providers typically have the actors (ducks?) and equipment to provide such original moves and poses. The rest of us have to settle for custom (keyframe), physics, and MoCap libraries (the more extensive, the better the chance of finding something close to the target). Not a bad choice, mind you, but the tools to blend the three ... (mrbones?)
rj |
Post by rotcorp // Mar 13, 2006, 6:37pm
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rotcorp
Total Posts: 73
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I had to go for keyframing as a generalization, but it basically came down to a coin toss so to speak... mocap is excellent for natural animation (try animating people standing around casually to see what I mean... keyframed animation often just doesn't look right). But it often needs hand tweeking. In the end, I think it was my own fond memories of doing a LOT of stop motion animation that made me make the vote, but I must stress that my opinion is somewhat colored by that nostalgia; each is a tool, each has its place, and deciding which is best is left, ultimately, up to the project upon which it is used. |
Post by Johny // Mar 13, 2006, 6:52pm
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Johny
Total Posts: 672
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:)
How's your "Mr. Resistor" animation coming along, by the way?
I plan to animate Mr.R using bone and IK :jumpy: |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 7:17pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Concede?
That Al Jolsen motion looks pretty darn good in my trueSpace.
It was provided by Mantis Motion in Seattle. It is one of my favorites.
Thats really how they used to dance, They would slide their feet aorund a little bit.
Tap dancing and such, no harm, no foul... , Tough Crowd!
Cheers:)
Illustrating the point is easy, getting MrBones to concede said point is not. :( |
Post by frank // Mar 13, 2006, 7:23pm
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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rotcorp: ...I think it was my own fond memories of doing a LOT of stop motion animation that made me make the vote...
Ahhhhhh.......stop motion......... :) Yeah, buddy!
Mr. Bones: Maybe I was a bit harsh back there. Sorry for some of those comments!
:) |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 7:51pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I think Mr. Bones is off trying to figure how to get a duck in a MoCap suit -).
ROFLMAO! Let's just hope it doesn't drive him quackers. :D
each is a tool, each has its place, and deciding which is best is left, ultimately, up to the project upon which it is used.
Exactly. This is 1 of the points I, & others, have been trying to make, but MrBones - whether he does so intentionally or not - gives the impression that he thinks that there should be only the 1 method of animation, & that it should be mocap.
Concede?
Concede the point, yes. The point being that keyframing is necessary, mocap is just a nice bonus. Yes, there are uses for each, & situations where 1 is better than the other, as several people have explained. We could get by without mocap, we couldn't get by without keyframing.
That Al Jolsen motion looks pretty darn good in my trueSpace.
It was provided by Mantis Motion in Seattle. It is one of my favorites.
I'm sure it is - I have no doubt it looks very nice, but just the fact that you have & can get nice mocap recordings [or whatever] of stuff & that they work nicely in tS still doesn't make mocap more essential than keyframing.
Tap dancing and such, no harm, no foul... Sorry I gave it away freely, Tough Crowd! Sheesh.
Cheers:)
Anyone know the vBulletin forum code for playing violin music? :D |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 7:53pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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No problem Frank,
We are both equally passionate in our pursuits of a perfect character animation system in TrueSpace.
I am sorry too,:( if I was a bonehead of sorts.
Let the chips fall where mother nature puts them.
Cheers:banana:
Mr. Bones: Maybe I was a bit harsh back there. Sorry for some of those comments!
:) |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 8:22pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Alien,
Franks point was not that we could get by without mocap.
Yeah, I know - that was mine - that we could get by without mocap, but not keyframing.
He in fact said the motion was nice. and it is.
I don't dispute that.
Might even look good on a duck.
I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I won't ague the point.
My point was not that we should use mocap only.
I never said that keyframing was not essential.
Had you made those 2 points clearer earlier, this thread would most likely have been quite a bit shorter. :)
You cant play the violin without catgut...
:eek: Forget the violins, spare the poor kitties! :eek: |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 8:24pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Alien,
In this Poll,
http://forums1.caligari.com/trueSpace/showthread.php?t=181
Users here voted overwhelmingly for .FBX which is another mocap format that MagicBones are made from.
CHeers:p |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 8:25pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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What the....? MrBones - do you keep deleting your own posts or something? if not, something weird's going on with the forum. |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 8:34pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Alien,
In this Poll,
http://forums1.caligari.com/trueSpace/showthread.php?t=181
Users here voted overwhemingly for .FBX which is another Motion capture format that MagicBones are made from.
CHeers:p
.FBX can store mocap info, but that's not what it was invented for - it was [AFAIK] created as an open standard 3D file format, so as to enable the transferring of work to & from different 3D apps. That it can handle mocap info as well is just a tribute to its versatility. I originally chose the "what's that?" vote, as I was unfamiliar with it at the time of voting, but as I said in a post in that thread once I found out what it was I was in favour of it because it [from everything I've heard] makes it easier to transfer 3D info to & from different 3D apps, including animation/motion info. I think you'll find that it's this compatibility that is most people's motivation for voting for it. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 8:42pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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I think the fact that TrueSpace can at least import .FBX format right now(at least the motion part, after conversion).
Is a tribute to Caligari software as well, As .FBX motion was not intended to work in trueSpace at all.
.cob compatibilty with .BVH and .FBX (motion only) is what TrueBones is all about.
MagicBones provide .FBX and .BVH motion compatibility in TrueSpace 5, 6, 7.0 and GameSpace.
I hope it still works for 7.5
Cheers!:)
That it can handle mocap info as well is just a tribute to its versatility.
I think you'll find that it's this compatibility that is most people's motivation for voting for it. |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 8:55pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I think the fact that TrueSpace can at least import .FBX format right now(after conversion). Is a tribute to Caligari software as well.
Actually, given that it still requires conversion, I'd say it's more a tribute to the programming skills of the madcap, mocap-obsessed guy who made the conversion utility. :p |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 8:59pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Alien,
Would you be suprised to know that no programming was nessecary?
How did they make bricks without straw?
Cheers:)
P.S. getting late here
Actually, given that it still requires conversion, I'd say it's more a tribute to the programming skills of the madcap, mocap-obsessed guy who made the conversion utility. :p |
Post by Alien // Mar 13, 2006, 9:12pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Would you be suprised to know that no programming was nessecary?
As a matter of fact I would. Care to elaborate?
How did they make bricks without straw?
qué?
P.S. getting late here
<looks at clock>
:eek: You think it's late there? :eek: I think this is gonna have to be my last post for the... last post before I go to bed - it's just gone 7am here! |
Post by mrbones // Mar 13, 2006, 9:12pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Thanks for all who voted in favor of Mocap. And also for all who voted for their own animation preference.
I appreciate all the honesty and fortitude presented here towards a better animation system for TrueSpace..
Now I must rest my case. Much work to do come morning....
Cheers All.:) |
Post by Humdinger // Mar 14, 2006, 5:56am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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Well the 'yawn' factor is getting a bit high on this thread.
Try to do this with Mocap..and TS bones...
One...bet you could not...
Two..I know I can rig and skin this thing..PROPERLY...light years faster than a TS Bones user..more so ...due to vertex weighting... you never could skin this with native bones..PROPERLY...Devil is in the detials....
Three....eh two was enough
link to short mpg video clip..done a few months back...(2 meg)(TS 6.6 and MOStu 1.08)
http://www.meobeco.com/odds/pdrool2.mpg
----------------------
BTW
When I read...
'Help create the next Generation of Character Animation Tools..'
Is that THE next gen..or the Next gen of TRUESPACE tools only..as the past tools..being so limited..could be severly upgraded and still be far from what any competitor offers...nevermind THE next Gen...
just curious. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 14, 2006, 7:53am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Frank,
Depends on what kind of duck are you using,
A. a cartoon duck?
b. a realistic duck
c. a hybrid duck (ie a duck that walks and talks like a person(ie daffy duck?)
And is the duck going to be set in a realistic or cartoony unrealistic enviroment?
You never specified what kind of animation this is overall and gave only really general specifications.
An old saying is, if it walks like a duck, then its a duck..
Ok Mr. Bones...instead of you and I going round-and-round on this like we always do (in this forum, gamespace, betaspace, #truespace channel, etc...), let me set forth a challenge and I want you to tell me how to do it with a mocap library.
Ok, Ill go along...
I think a mocap library fails with the word 'duck'. Do you have any mocap data for ducks?
Maybee, depends on the above criteria,
I hear you say
Dont put words in my mouth. Thats unfair.
"But wait - a human in a mocap suit can act out the duck motions." Sure - but we're talking about a pre-built mocap library. I don't think many folks have mocap equipment at their disposal.
More than you know.
So what you do is re-write your story to work with the mocap library. Instead of it being about a duck, change it to something like .... the story of a jittery man who enjoys doing karate kicks for no practical reason. ...oh, and he does the moonwalk without even realizing it!
What are you talking about Jittery man and moonwalk? Are you slandering my products? Thats unfair and removes all integrity from your poll.
Hopefully you see my point.
Not really Frank, But Im willing to be open minded..
Cheers:banana: |
Post by Alien // Mar 14, 2006, 8:33am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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MrBones - download Media Player Classic (http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=82303&package_id=84358). That should play it. |
Post by rj0 // Mar 14, 2006, 10:52am
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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In this Poll,
http://forums1.caligari.com/trueSpace/showthread.php?t=181
Users here voted overwhelmingly for .FBX which is another mocap format that MagicBones are made from.
I don't remember responding to that one.
Hmmm, that was a Yes/No poll. Sure, I'd like to see trueSpace support FBX.
As noted though, FBX is an exchange format for animation, not solely MoCap.
This poll is an either/or poll, which unfortunately means choosing which animation approach is more essential.
Hmmm, trueSpace without keyframe? Don't suppose anybody would miss it, do you -)?
rj |
Post by Johny // Mar 14, 2006, 5:17pm
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Johny
Total Posts: 672
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Well the 'yawn' factor is getting a bit high on this thread.
Try to do this with Mocap..and TS bones...
One...bet you could not...
Two..I know I can rig and skin this thing..PROPERLY...light years faster than a TS Bones user..more so ...due to vertex weighting... you never could skin this with native bones..PROPERLY...Devil is in the detials....
Three....eh two was enough
link to short mpg video clip..done a few months back...(2 meg)(TS 6.6 and MOStu 1.08)
http://www.meobeco.com/odds/pdrool2.mpg
.....
Cool animation here :banana: |
Post by Humdinger // Mar 15, 2006, 6:03am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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Here you go Mr. Bones...and anyone else having problems...
zip file with flash 6.0 swf and flash 6.0 swf coverted to a projector .exe file as well
2.5 Meg
http://www.meobeco.com/odds/yawn.zip |
Post by frank // Mar 15, 2006, 6:29am
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Vinny:
I like how you've adjusted the vertex weights so that the harness strap stretches/expands very smoothly. Lots of parts to the character and rig. Nice job! :) |
Post by mrbones // Mar 15, 2006, 7:11am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Hi Vinny,
Nice animation, and I agree Mocap and native TS bones could not do that kind of animation.;)
However, that is mainly a facial animation, Mocap is geared more for full body motions.
Thanks for your example:jumpy: Im getting some new ideas now.
Cheers
Here you go Mr. Bones...and anyone else having problems...
zip file with flash 6.0 swf and flash 6.0 swf coverted to a projector .exe file as well
2.5 Meg
http://www.meobeco.com/odds/yawn.zip |
Post by stan // Mar 15, 2006, 7:19am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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later to day I imagine mrbones looking something like this creating facial mocaps..:D |
Post by mrbones // Mar 15, 2006, 7:57am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Thanks Stan,
That gave me an even better idea.:cool:
Cheers
later to day I imagine mrbones looking something like this creating facial mocaps..:D |
Post by foleypro // Mar 15, 2006, 9:44am
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foleypro
Total Posts: 46
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Hmmm...
Maybe a tS contest needs to be done with the first Place winners in Mocap and Traditional catagories getting a copy of tS7...?
:cool: |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 15, 2006, 3:10pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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Hmmm...
Maybe a tS contest needs to be done with the first Place winners in Mocap and Traditional catagories getting a copy of tS7...?
:cool:
MoCap would have a serious advantage in that the tools would probably work because the MoCap would not have to be accomplished in tS.
If we could get some decent traditional tools in tS I would feel more confident about the 2 going head to head. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 16, 2006, 5:38am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Well put Naes3D,
Motion Capture works well in TrueSpace right now.
My preference is to use traditional keyframing for character animation.
However in TrueSpace I prefer to use Mocap because it works better for me than the traditional animation tools currrently available in my favorite 3d program.
Cheers |
Post by Johny // Mar 22, 2006, 6:43am
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Johny
Total Posts: 672
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Hi MrBones, What happened with you avatar ? |
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