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3D World Review is in
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
3D World Review is in // Roundtable
Post by jamesmc // Mar 25, 2006, 3:49pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Not sure what your point is here James. This thread is about the review TS got with regards to it being incomplete and/or lacking certain features. Not that it was not as good or capable as (insert name of 3D program). 3D World is a major publication in the UK and I, for one, am concerned about any negativity TS might get as a result of the review. To ignore it is your choice but I made a point of reading it.
Really looking at the reasons it did not score so high and the effect that might have on peoples perceptions of it and the inevitable sales...
Just what other program(s) were you suggesting a showdown with?
My point is that 3D World is a small potatoes magazine based in the UK with a readership that is smaller than most small town newspapers here in the U.S.
I ignore it because I don't want to subcribe nor read a magazine that is so small (limited resources) and probably makes their reviews by extracting information from the Internet rather than testing the software itself.
Besides it is just not on the newstands here. :) And I dont' want to subscribe to an online magazine. Something oxymoronic about not be able to take a magazine to the john and using it as an alternative hygiene paper source (chortles.) Sorry, that was potty humor. :)
Other programs would be any 3D program considered in the Price range of Caligari's product. That would exclude some of the heavy weights from providing studio veteran 3D artists in the competition. |
Post by noko // Mar 25, 2006, 4:05pm
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noko
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I finally found a copy of 3D-World but it is issue #75, newest that Borders had on the racks. Seems to be an interesting mag so I picked it up for $15 :( , at least it comes with a cd. I guess I have to wait for the review issue to arrive in the states, when ever that will be. For $91 I can get a subscription delivered to my door. Not sure if the magazine is worth that much. So I can't say anything about their review and by the time I can it will probably be a very mute point.
I do believe TS7 is a new breed or should I say a growing new breed defining new territory in 3d content creation, how successful time will tell. From my viewpoint it is the right direction (using 3d hardware graphics acceleration which is advancing much faster then cpu technology, new physics system multithreaded or can use second cpu core, ability to link up as many artist, designers from all parts of the world on a given project, free 3d viewer content, vastly improved scripting ability with visual link editor, ease of making procedural animations and the list would go on).
Since TS is rapidily changing and still in a transition period growing stronger everyday with update coming out and 7.5 version down the street, I hope what ever issue 3dWorld found, if legit, will be addressed or at least put in prospective the utter strengths that TS has now. |
Post by Garion // Mar 25, 2006, 4:35pm
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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I ignore it because I don't want to subcribe nor read a magazine that is so small (limited resources) and probably makes their reviews by extracting information from the Internet rather than testing the software itself.
Nothing like a spot of uninformed libel to make things hotter :D
and
My point is that 3D World is a small potatoes magazine based in the UK with a readership that is smaller than most small town newspapers here in the U.S.
I mean no offense, but c'mon.... Its a very specialised magazine so the readership is going to be far less than a newspaper that caters for a far larger local community :)
It's available in Barnes and Noble I believe and subscriptions are available worldwide soley so yoo can read it in the bog. :)
Just out of interest, how many other 3D specialised magazines are there out there?
I also read Digit, Computer arst and specials, but I have not seen any other 3D Mags.
Sorry for edits, streaming with a bad head cold and keep hitting wrong button :)
Cheers
Garion |
Post by e-graffiti // Mar 25, 2006, 4:56pm
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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My point is that 3D World is a small potatoes magazine based in the UK with a readership that is smaller than most small town newspapers here in the U.S.
Jamesmc, 3d World (like its sister Computer Arts) are base in the UK but I dont think they are by any means small potatoes. In fact when I go to a Borders or Barnes & Noble those magazines appear to be the ones people are browsing and buying as far as CG goes. Interview aside, if you are serious about 3d or simple want to improve your skillset as a hobbyist, 3d world is a very good resource. Many of the topics discussed can be adapted to any 3d program. In issue #75, which is current in US, there is even a light setup for modelling in tS article. My agreeing or not agreeing with the tS7 review would not discourage me from purchasing the magazine on a regular basis. There are lots of tips and tricks, and a solid "international" base of readership. If you dont believe me simply check out your local borders or B&N. |
Post by Alien // Mar 25, 2006, 5:06pm
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Alien
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I ignore it because I don't want to subcribe nor read a magazine that is so small (limited resources) and probably makes their reviews by extracting information from the Internet rather than testing the software itself.
Apparently you missed post #10 in this thread, regarding the author of the review:
For those of you who don't know, Anthony Ware has been a tS user for many many moons. He is one of the most knowledable people here. His Nick on the forums is 'Bobbins'. His Nick also states he is a Beta Tester. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 25, 2006, 5:23pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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My sources weren't uninformed, I got the circulation numbers from 3D World's publishers website. I was talking about small town newspapers and their circulation. Like the small farm community I grew up in had 3,800 people. When I became a teenager, I worked at the local newspaper. It's circulation for a bi-weekly issue was 13,000 and that was 35 years ago. :)
As far as 3D publications (books, magazines, online, all inclusive) there must be hundreds if not thousands out there.
As far as one of the Beta Testers being a reviewer for a Computer Magazine, that indeed sounds like a conflict of interest. At the very least one of self-interest. Makes me wonder, what about you?
And besides, I thought we were entitled to our opinion on the subject.
Guess not.
I won't be posting for awhile. Cya. |
Post by chrono // Mar 25, 2006, 5:29pm
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My point is that 3D World is a small potatoes magazine based in the UK with a readership that is smaller than most small town newspapers here in the U.S.
I ignore it because I don't want to subcribe nor read a magazine that is so small (limited resources) and probably makes their reviews by extracting information from the Internet rather than testing the software itself.
Besides it is just not on the newstands here. :)
Well your pretty stunningly ill-informed about 3D magazines then because not even Cinescape, which is considered the industrial leader when it comes to 3D magazines, is large and then only is it considered 'big' by it's consumer market. So your reasoning is basicaly crap.
As for your ignoring it due to limited resources you should really know that 99% of 3D manuals cover everything in a 3D program, so if your buying any 3D magazine it's for peeks into other softwares abilities and not for information on your package. Also saying the company has hacks for writers is flatout insulting! Especially when they have interviews that don't appear anywhere on the internet in places where they would immediatly show-up due to the sites size and community importance.
You are also incorrect that they aren't on the newstands over here. Barnes & Noble, Wal-Mart, and Waldens often have these on the shelfs. And that doesn't count the actually newstands in the area either!
The competition idea is totally mote because the number of 'seat' Liscenses already state who the 'winner' is. And to top it off the idea of a 'winner' is also mote because lower priced programs have ALWAYS come from no-where with incredibly innovative ideas that leave the larger and more established packages blushing like japanese school-girls in shock and embrassment. ZBrush, SILO, MODO, and Hexagon have all left their larger cousins in the dust and so far ONLY TS has answered their challenge with a displacement painting brush. |
Post by e-graffiti // Mar 25, 2006, 6:49pm
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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And besides, I thought we were entitled to our opinion on the subject.
Guess not.
I won't be posting for awhile. Cya.
Comeon Jamesmc, no one is saying you are not entitled to your opinion, some of us just dont agree with it and thats ok, keep posting :jumpy:
As for your ignoring it due to limited resources you should really know that 99% of 3D manuals cover everything in a 3D program, so if your buying any 3D magazine it's for peeks into other softwares abilities and not for information on your package.
SW manuals are great "technical references" but are not designed to be "creative resources" thats were tutorials and magazines come in to fill the gap. Just knowing that NURBS has the ability to create an organic shape and "click this button" gives you one is certainly not enough to understand how NURBS can be used as a tool in the creative process to construct a human body. That would be like saying "well you know the ABCs now write a novel" OR "you know how to use a paint brush so paint the Sistine Chapel." Although I dont mind reading about the other packages and how it can be used, my primary goal is understanding how 3d technology can be used to enhance my own creativity and assist me with solving design problems, something that manuals usually dont cover. And it is a real gem when a package I am using is being covered and provides me with info to better use it. Trust me Chrono, if I wanted to peek into other packages I would save my $15.00 for the mag and simply look at the company website. :cool: |
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2006, 11:08pm
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splinters
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To be honest, much of the review is not relevant now 7.1 is imminent.
Last night I was playing with Vray that now has a very good toolset, new player tools and using the sharedspace to interact with other testers. And as for rendering from the player...... |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 26, 2006, 4:34am
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Total Posts: 2566
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Well your pretty stunningly ill-informed about 3D magazines then because not even Cinescape, which is considered the industrial leader when it comes to 3D magazines, is large and then only is it considered 'big' by it's consumer market. So your reasoning is basicaly crap.
As for your ignoring it due to limited resources you should really know that 99% of 3D manuals cover everything in a 3D program, so if your buying any 3D magazine it's for peeks into other softwares abilities and not for information on your package. Also saying the company has hacks for writers is flatout insulting! Especially when they have interviews that don't appear anywhere on the internet in places where they would immediatly show-up due to the sites size and community importance.
You are also incorrect that they aren't on the newstands over here. Barnes & Noble, Wal-Mart, and Waldens often have these on the shelfs. And that doesn't count the actually newstands in the area either!
The competition idea is totally mote because the number of 'seat' Liscenses already state who the 'winner' is. And to top it off the idea of a 'winner' is also mote because lower priced programs have ALWAYS come from no-where with incredibly innovative ideas that leave the larger and more established packages blushing like japanese school-girls in shock and embrassment. ZBrush, SILO, MODO, and Hexagon have all left their larger cousins in the dust and so far ONLY TS has answered their challenge with a displacement painting brush.
Oh thank you very much. You show more love for a magazine that critiques tS than a loyal tS user.
Make that former tS user.
I've decided with it's lack of animation tools, that tS is totally useless for me. I was going to buy the video training package for 199.00 and some more plug-ins(about 400.00 dollars worth) to boost up my productivity, but now I think I would be making a large mistake.
I've even emailed Mr. Bones 3 times about his software and he refuses to answer his email. Hell, I purchased a plug-in from Mr. Bones one month ago and still haven't gotten it. So the support for tS and its associated products are somewhat lackluster.
Even a former plug-in programmer that wrote a plug-in for Poser to tS (truePose) has lost interest. I really needed that plug-in, but there seems to be a huge amount of apathy for people using tS who want to animate.
I'll be erasing tS from my hard drive and purchasing other applications.
Am I impatient? You bet I am. I'm nearly six tenths of a century old and don't want to be waiting around forever for a software to catch up to do what I want it to do.
I tried to be loyal to the product, asking questions and got some pretty good help from some people like Dele, tiles, WickedWitch and some others. I thank those people.
It's time to move on to other software and I apologize for picking on people's personal pet magazine. No, I should be thankful that they woke me up to reality. I was sitting in a comfort zone of mediocre productivity. I was awakened, so now it's time to move on.
Oh and Norm, you can unregister me from this forum if you wish, i won't be back. |
Post by mrbones // Mar 26, 2006, 5:25am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Jamesmc,
We did have a problem with our company email and forum was hijacked temporarily.
If there was a miscommunication in receiving your recently ordered product, it was completely unintentional.
Im sorry for any inconvience this may have caused you.
Good Luck on your future 3D endevors and Cheers!
Mr. Bones
I've even emailed Mr. Bones 3 times about his software and he refuses to answer his email. Hell, I purchased a plug-in from Mr. Bones one month ago and still haven't gotten it. So the support for tS and its associated products are somewhat lackluster. |
Post by brianalldridge // Mar 26, 2006, 6:12am
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Total Posts: 397
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Adios, does this mean we won't ever get to see the finished short? |
Post by splinters // Mar 26, 2006, 6:57am
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Total Posts: 4148
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Sorry to hear you are unhappy with your software but there is no need for the 'taking my ball home' attitude. You may want to use other software but does that really mean erasing TS from your hard drive and unregistering from the forums? 3D World is no one's 'pet' magazine. Remember that you were the one dismissing it's importance and circulation-no one here was saying it was the best thing ever...people just replied...honestly.
Just have a nice cup of tea, put your feet up and give it some thought. At your age you should be avoiding stress......;)
Hell, what am I posting this for...sounds like you have already left....... |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 26, 2006, 12:13pm
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So, um, yeah.
I wasn't so much surprised by the score as I was that a beta tester gave it. I have sometimes left the forums with the feeling that if you are critical of tS you are not so well liked.
Anyway, as far as the subject of bias is concerned, there really is no way around that. The product will have to be reviewed by someone who is familiar with the software. And it's not like there are a plethora of tS users from which to choose. |
Post by brianalldridge // Mar 26, 2006, 12:38pm
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Total Posts: 397
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I think people need to realize that you can use more than just one product, uninstalling and switching solely to another program just because it's not the best is not really that smart of a choice. If you don't have all the features you need, buy another program to use also. You paid for trueSpace and you're not getting a refund, so the only reason to uninstall would be to emphisize the "taking my ball home" atitude that splinters mentioned.:rolleyes: |
Post by Burnart // Mar 26, 2006, 3:30pm
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I think there are several problems - 1) the program as so far released is not yet complete - its not the advertised product. 2) because the player module isn't there the importance and uniqueness of this step is not clear and 3) describing the realtime display in player view as a "photo-realistic" is an exaggerated claim
When I first bought tS 6.6 I had been looking at Hash. What put me off was visiting their user groups and seeing everyone complainng about how buggy the program was and reading through the list of things the program could do in terms of effects, rendering etc but finding no samples to back the claims up. This was the previously mentioned buggy version. It should also be noted that Lightwave had a similar problem a couple of years ago - a new rewrite was kind of unstable and a lot of users were tearing their hair out. So lets not panic about tS yet!
I hope tS7.5 gets an updated review when it comes.
BTW One of the advantages of forums like this can also be a disadvantage - the seeming sense of intimacy and immediacy like you are having a conversation. Something said to you in a real face-to-face conversation like "You're opinion's sh*t" can go by without causing great offense because you can hear how its said and see the facial expression behind it. Whereas writing that someones opinion is misinformed can seem like the grossest of insults. Think we should take whats said with a grain of salt and be a bit more relaxed.;) |
Post by chrono // Mar 26, 2006, 5:00pm
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jamesmc,
My man you are preach'n to the choir here! Less then 18 months ago I started a program that ended up deciding that I would no longer actually 'use' TS for ANYTHING beyond rendering and particle system play. I spent nearly 300 hours on a project and lost close to 36 hours of productivity due to 6.6 crashing from old bug laden tooling. I then decided to look around and ran into a program that simple works and was INFINATLY more solid then what I was working with and haven't looked back since. That's just how it IS. You find the tools that 'work' and use them! And if something takes longer then it should've to make the changes needed you either decide to move on or accept them. :cool: |
Post by rj0 // Mar 26, 2006, 8:30pm
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Look at it this way:
A new program version (such as tS 7.x) is a leap of faith, for both the developers and the users. The bigger the leap, the more the faith.
If, in the end, the new program doesn't satisfy the users, the developers have far more to lose than the users. The users simply buy another tool/program. The developers, well, they have much more serious problems. Believe me, the developers want/need to make things right.
rj |
Post by Cayenne // Mar 26, 2006, 11:24pm
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3) describing the realtime display in player view as a "photo-realistic" is an exaggerated claim
The player can achieve a near photorealistic render it all depends on how the lighting is set and the materials and shaders used, one thing to think of is it as not just a previewer it can be used as an alternative render system.
All new render engines take time to learn how to get the best from them and it is no different to the realtime player view as well.
This scene is just a byproduct of testing new modeling blend tools in the player, and would possibly benefit from the addition of one more placed light, it currently only has 2 shadow spots, bloom is enabled along with antialiasing.
some monitors may show this a bit dark, but I am using a monitor calibrated with spyder2 monitor calibration hardware to allow for consistant colour output, and it shows very good here at 1920x1080 original output.
benefits of player output is there is no waiting for a render to complete, it takes longer to write the file to disk than it does to display changes made to the view.
It can take 5 secs to write a file but the player is capable of redrawing up to 60fps when recalculating changes dependant on the complexity of objects and shaders used. |
Post by splinters // Mar 27, 2006, 1:02am
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Excellent, and looks just like a render to me.
Just goes to show that once someone puts an example out there, the negative comments generally stop. This is as 'photorealistic' as I would want from a realtime preview.
It all depends on hardware available-but remember that TS7 will allow for growth with your next graphics card, not just be limited to whatever is out there now....:)
This sort of thing should be made available for all to see, and not just these forums. Many have dismissed the claims of 'photorealism', even the 3D world review. |
Post by noko // Mar 27, 2006, 1:10am
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Rather cool Cayenne. Now DX9 capability can make some rather realistic content, as time goes on more and more complex shaders will be develope such as water, hair (vertex shading as well) and so on. The real time renderer can also process HDRI in real time which I found to be very good, in which in this case exceeds photographic quality ;), really limited by monitor more then anything else. Its rather new so I would expect it will take some time before us users access its full capability. |
Post by KeithC // Mar 27, 2006, 4:15am
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So, has there been solid confirmation (from Caligari) that 7.5 will indeed have the new animation/bone tools in it? Since that was originally proposed for the 7.1 release, will the 7.1 release be free for all users? Is there a list (or a WIP list) of what will be addressed with the 7.1 release? Is Caligari going to include the new TS 7 course for free? These are questions I have been asking, as well as those asked by visitors (and elsewhere).
-Keith |
Post by Bobbins // Mar 27, 2006, 4:29am
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See Roman's post from 2 weeks ago at the start of this thread:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=399&page=6 |
Post by hemulin // Mar 27, 2006, 4:45am
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hemulin
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I like your avatar Brianalldridge! |
Post by KeithC // Mar 27, 2006, 4:48am
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KeithC
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Must have missed that one; thanks for the link, Bobbins.
-Keith |
Post by i_maker // Mar 27, 2006, 8:22am
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i_maker
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Hi Cayenne
Was that "head" rendered with Vray or LW? What was the number of polygons? |
Post by frank // Mar 27, 2006, 8:31am
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Was that "head" rendered with Vray or LW? What was the number of polygons?
Hi i_maker!
That's a realtime player view. Cayenne is showing the player's near-photo-realistic rendering capabilities. |
Post by i_maker // Mar 27, 2006, 8:45am
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i_maker
Total Posts: 156
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Thanks for that, Frank. Can you render to file at high resolution from the Player like you can from Modeler? |
Post by splinters // Mar 27, 2006, 8:49am
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splinters
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Not sure it is relevant i_maker. It is a DX9 player image so not actually 'rendered' in the traditional sense of the word but rather a real time screen grab...:)
Whoops, Frank beat me to it... |
Post by splinters // Mar 27, 2006, 8:51am
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Thanks for that, Frank. Can you render to file at high resolution from the Player like you can from Modeler?
Roman......this one's for you to answer...;) |
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