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3D World Review is in
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
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3D World Review is in // Roundtable
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Apr 28, 2006, 4:37pm
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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I am thinking we should add a new rule: Thou shall post at least one new image for every 50 text only posts:)
Gene just beat me but I'll add my thumbs up for that proposal! :-)
(Gene, you posted the BWE so I guess you're in credit!) |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 28, 2006, 4:46pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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There never was a "pre-relase" version of TS7, we just offered a better deal for people who bought TS7.0 before the shipping date, we always do that.
Sorry - I used the wrong words - I meant the pre-order deal.. But let me ask you a direct question, do you beleive that TS 7.1 is a fully completed product? - A few of us are saying it is a nearly finished product, and that when the player is capable of 6.6 functionality and the bridge not needed then isn't that what version 7.0 was meant to be?
6.6 was pretty robust, 7.1 still isnt for me and it seems many others, so is that going to be addressed (maybe a 7.2 version prior to the 7.5 release?), or should I just stop asking difficult questions and get on with working around the system..?
I can't say how good character animation will be in TS7.5 but we have a realy good platform wit link editor, visual message passing, realtime physics, procedural animation and yes even bridge. A lot of users do not realize how greatly this stuff is helping us to make TS7.5 character animation realy strong. But the proof as they say is in the pudding.
Yes - I do look forward to seeing what the CA will be like.. any hints or demo pics?
Oh and Roman - if you dont increase the download bandwidth speed on the animation competition part of the website, next to nobody is going to be able to look at them - they download at 2.5k here on my cable broadband connection.. and often time out..
Im a webdeveloper primarily, and I often suggest suggest getting another cheap and cheerful (fast) server just for the animations and possible also large images. |
Post by splinters // Apr 29, 2006, 1:41am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I have 6,6 and 7.1 and I feel that the latest version is a million miles away from 6.6 yet strangely familiar too. I certainly would not go back to an earlier version. HDRI is priceless as is Vray (which I know is an option-but look at the quality of it and compare it to the cost of Vray advanced which is almost what you are getting). The UI is more flexible too...give it time.
I cannot speak for Roman, but would say that no software is complete-everyone patches and gives point upgrades-it was simply not fair to deprive the community of the software ny longer. Roman has already hinted at a 7.2 upgrade for existing users so you will see a developing piece of software without having to pay for the 7.5 upgrade.
It has been explained in great detail elsewhere why the bridge is necessary (plug ins, compatibility, building on new achitecture etc.) so I consider TS7.1 to be complete...however 7.2 is not complete....yet...;)
Future looks good to me. |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 29, 2006, 2:19am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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it was simply not fair to deprive the community of the software ny longer. Roman has already hinted at a 7.2 upgrade for existing users so you will see a developing piece of software without having to pay for the 7.5 upgrade.
Yeah, but the flipside of that thought is "we thought we should sell an incomplete product to be fair to those waiting, but we wont tell anybody its not quite finished"
Just adding a link to Romans new thread (that splinter alluded to) which does indeed talk about 7.2 and a few other things that pretty much answer a lot of my (and others) questions posed in this and other threads.. so I can shut up and get back to reading the manual and modelling/rendering now..
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=717 |
Post by splinters // Apr 29, 2006, 4:50am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I may be mistaken but I am not sure Roman ever said it was 'finished'. Just like Vray 0.9 it was pretty well explained that there would be changes made for a forthcoming patch to address problems and niggles thrown up at release time. Also that the bridge was a temporary measure to allow users of 6.6 to migrate comfortably to new rosetta platform. It could be several versions before model side completely goes but as long as the tools I need are in one side or another-I am happy...:) |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 29, 2006, 5:43am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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I may be mistaken but I am not sure Roman ever said it was 'finished'.
Yes - i dont think I have seen that either - I have always been under the 'assumption' that v7.0 was a finished version though - until I bought it, and considering the price jump for the upgrade from 6.6 to 7.0 at $400 when I got the 5.2 and 6.6 upgrades for about 100 or so each, I had assumed a more complete and different product was being purchased. I certainly had no idea that the author did not think it was complete when I ordered it, and that there would be much more work require more work to realise what I call the 'vision' of 7.0
As Roman said in the other thread, those who decide they dont like the way TS is heading can go on to other products, but thats a little harsh considering there is $800 of my hard earnt money sitting in the company account.
Which is why I keep asking questions about how much more of the TS7 vision am I going to get for my money before I have to start forking out more.
I'm getting tired going on about this when really its a storm in a teacup.. TS is a good product, which when completed (modeller) will be a great product..
I just feel that if you buy something it should perform as it proposes to, albeit with a few bugs, not with missing features and confusing methadologies crossing two modelling platforms (i.e. I have to model in Modeller, but have to take Player into account as it defines my V-ray rendering environment) etc..
However my other side says I am in render heaven with the HDRI and V-ray rendering.. the Panels and such.. I code javascript, VBscript database etc and am really looking forward to playing with the physics with code, so I am sticking with Truespace for now..
..and I will read the PDF manual from end to end (when I can find someone who will print it for me!) - actually - is there a way to get a V7 printed manual sent to me for an appropriate fee? |
Post by splinters // Apr 29, 2006, 6:47am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Everyone has a different view of TS7. To me all the tools I need are there and some new ones are in the player side. I have bought into a platform that I can see developing before my eyes, not over years, but almost daily-just witness the games and other scripts appearing that were not even considered at release. As far as I am aware I will not have to pay to get a version that has more tools moved over to the player but I might have to to get a full character animation upgrade which is fair enough.
As for the manual, I would suggest contacting customer services to see if it can be done...
Caligari always offer a 30 day money back guarantee so I would have thought that anyone who was really disappinted with TS7.0 would have taken advantage of that...if not...then they must see the potential of sticking with TS7...:) |
Post by xmanflash // Apr 29, 2006, 7:04am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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"Caligari always offer a 30 day money back guarantee"
Hmmm - I heard that was for the CD version, not the download version? - on the forums somewhere..
Anyhow - I think I am sticking with it, My 30 days are nearly up! |
Post by Steinie // May 1, 2006, 2:07am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Which is why I keep asking questions about how much more of the TS7 vision am I going to get for my money before I have to start forking out more.
..and I will read the PDF manual from end to end (when I can find someone who will print it for me!) - actually - is there a way to get a V7 printed manual sent to me for an appropriate fee?
You and I have very similiar thoughts about TS7 and what was included for the "Modelers" and then Roman tells us more cool modeling tools will be in 7.5. Why are the Modeling tools being put in the animation version first? Are they going to support two versions are is 7.0-7.1 and maybe 7.2 going to merge into 7.5?
I have always loved using Truespace (my favorite software by far) but sometimes Calagary does things that slap the user across the face. I don't think anything they do negative is intentional. Another problem is the fact that Truespace does so much that when they address an area the other users say " hey you forgot about me!" I think in time this will all be sorted out. I clearly see they are heading in the right direction. Their sort of the hybrid car and not everyone has the fuel yet and the technician aren't ready to work on it yet.
As far as the manual goes they will charge you the differance between the downloaded version and the boxed version. Thats what I did, reading only a pdf was torture and now that I have the book my bisceps have grown 6"......;) |
Post by xmanflash // May 1, 2006, 5:46am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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You and I have very similiar thoughts about TS7 and what was included for the "Modelers" and then Roman tells us more cool modeling tools will be in 7.5. Why are the Modeling tools being put in the animation version first? Are they going to support two versions are is 7.0-7.1 and maybe 7.2 going to merge into 7.5?
I have always loved using Truespace (my favorite software by far) but sometimes Calagary does things that slap the user across the face. I don't think anything they do negative is intentional. Another problem is the fact that Truespace does so much that when they address an area the other users say " hey you forgot about me!" I think in time this will all be sorted out. I clearly see they are heading in the right direction. Their sort of the hybrid car and not everyone has the fuel yet and the technician aren't ready to work on it yet.
As far as the manual goes they will charge you the differance between the downloaded version and the boxed version. Thats what I did, reading only a pdf was torture and now that I have the book my bisceps have grown 6"......;)
Hi Steinie, yeah - its one of those love hate things isnt it.. Durn it.. I think that those who bought 7.0 and 7.1 should be able to upgrade to 7.5 (or whatever the more complete modeller finished version is) for a small amount bearining in mind the quite high upgrade price from 6.6 to 7.0.. And to compensate for the time we spent trying to work around not quite finished/broken bits.. Its a good job they dont make cars like this.. Oh - wait..
I'll ask about a manual - I want biceps too! too much geek atrophy going on in this studio! :) |
Post by Penforhire // May 2, 2006, 11:08am
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Penforhire
Total Posts: 4
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I've been a user since v3. Yeah, 100% lurker and 100% hobbyist. I probably posted in a nother life years ago but went into hibernation. I did some product visualisations for companies I work for but I'd never claim to be a pro. I don't know how much of the tS user base I represent but here's my dilemma --
Even though I'm a hobbyist I still want the coolest renders I can afford (e.g. Pyrocluster was fantastic and I bought every early Pak). I'm a tS 6.6 user. In terms of upgrading, V-ray is very attractive. But when I add up the cost of my upgrade I am suddenly aware that there is a serious competitor package of similar cost. I'm not here to plug anyone else's software but I remain on-the-fence because of the significant investment required to stay current with tS.
I like many of the ways tS does its thing but I never liked the icon-driven interface. I use many menu-driven CAD systems professionally but infrequently (e.g. AutoCAD, Anvil) and I find these much easier to navigate as an infrequent user. I'm sure icons are great for full-time users but for guys like me icons are much more frustrating than hierarchical English menus.
So anyway, I guess I'm looking for technical reasons why I should suck it up and stick with tS rather than give "L" a try. I'm certainly not going to invest in both. I have some loyalty to companies I stick with over time (not that my Borland investments worked out so well) so I already view tS favorably. It is just that I'm tempted by a financial issue. I never guessed I'd see such a small price gap between the packages I'm talking about here.
What percentage of tS owners are dilettantes like me? |
Post by splinters // May 18, 2007, 6:53am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Well, tS7 got a 6 when reviewed and looking back (with the benefit of 7.5 on my PC) that was pretty generous really.
Any bets on what 7.5 will get?
If it gets reviewed after the promised patch then I would go for an 8.
Of course Vray 1.5 is a different thing but the review would only have to figure in it's ability to use Vray I guess as that is essentially another piece of software. |
Post by Steinie // May 18, 2007, 7:01am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Splinters, VRay1.5 isn't being fixed for it's performance deficiencies?
What would you give a 9 to? If judged on modeling only, Silo would win hands down. I agree with the 8 for TS7.5 and with future enhancements it could go higher still. |
Post by parva // May 18, 2007, 7:46am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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A 8? From 10?... I would give a 4 maybe a 5. Taking in account private usability and usability in a production pipeline. |
Post by splinters // May 18, 2007, 8:06am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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A bit harsh Parva?
Taking into account the fact that tS7.0 got 6, wouldn't the improvements in 7.5 deserve another 2 points? |
Post by stan // May 18, 2007, 10:10am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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maybe it will pull off another 6...Splinters ,I don't know if the last review would have any bearing on it or not..it sure needs that patch to pull off higher.:) .. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 18, 2007, 10:28am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Hmmm... perhaps a better question might be what would a 10 even look like?
Quote from "This is Spinal Tap"
Nigel (talking about an amp): It's very very special. As you can see the numbers all go to eleven. Look! right across the board... eleven... eleven... eleven...
Interviewer: Oh I see and most amps go up to ten?
Nigel: Exactly!
Interviewer: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel: Well... it's one louder. Isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes you know will be playing at ten. You're on ten here... all the way up... all the way up... all the way up... You're on ten on your guitar. where can you go from there? where?
Interviewer: I don't know.
Nigel: Nowhere! Exactly! What we do is if we need that extra push over the cliff you know what we do?
Interviewer: Put it up to eleven?
Nigel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Interviewer: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
<long pause>
Nigel: These go to 11. |
Post by Délé // May 18, 2007, 11:59am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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ROFL, Spinal Tap. I forgot all about them. Funny movie. :)
I think I would give 7.5 (with the patch) a 7.5. It's always going to score a little lower with the bridge there in my book. Even though it is a big step forward from 7.11. I wouldn't score it in the 9 range until the bridge is gone. And I do think that when the new architecture can stand on it's own, it will be in the 9 range. :D |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 18, 2007, 12:27pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I agree with Dele. There's still a lot of "basic" functionality that I'd like to see implemented and the whole bridge thing is a stability nightmare. Though I admit Caligari's done an admirable job making it all work together.
If Caligari can keep up the current furious pace I do think trueSpace has a good shot at getting to a 9.
GameSpace 2.0 will likely be an interesting release though since that'll hit a more accessible price point. I think the 7.5 modeling and animation interface minus LW and V-Ray at a $300 price tag would score pretty well for game devs.
-Jack. |
Post by nowherebrain // May 18, 2007, 1:06pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I think it's going to boil down to 3 things for Caligari: Stability, Competitive Animation tools (w/ working bones), and a working demo (can't say that enough). Without those things, I'm afraid a new user off the street may just decide to spend that extra $200 to get Lightwave (that has all the tools), or spend $100 less to get XSI/Foundation (that has some of the best animation tools out there). I still think the online collaboration was a waste of time, but I've been wrong before.
-Keith
I agree on every single point! |
Post by xmanflash // May 18, 2007, 3:52pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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I've been a user since v3. Yeah, 100% lurker and 100% hobbyist. I probably posted in a nother life years ago but went into hibernation. I did some product visualisations for companies I work for but I'd never claim to be a pro. I don't know how much of the tS user base I represent but here's my dilemma --
Even though I'm a hobbyist I still want the coolest renders I can afford (e.g. Pyrocluster was fantastic and I bought every early Pak). I'm a tS 6.6 user. In terms of upgrading, V-ray is very attractive. But when I add up the cost of my upgrade I am suddenly aware that there is a serious competitor package of similar cost. I'm not here to plug anyone else's software but I remain on-the-fence because of the significant investment required to stay current with tS.
I like many of the ways tS does its thing but I never liked the icon-driven interface. I use many menu-driven CAD systems professionally but infrequently (e.g. AutoCAD, Anvil) and I find these much easier to navigate as an infrequent user. I'm sure icons are great for full-time users but for guys like me icons are much more frustrating than hierarchical English menus.
So anyway, I guess I'm looking for technical reasons why I should suck it up and stick with tS rather than give "L" a try. I'm certainly not going to invest in both. I have some loyalty to companies I stick with over time (not that my Borland investments worked out so well) so I already view tS favorably. It is just that I'm tempted by a financial issue. I never guessed I'd see such a small price gap between the packages I'm talking about here.
What percentage of tS owners are dilettantes like me?
Apparently theres a Demo of 7.5 coming on Monday :-) |
Post by moogaloonie // May 18, 2007, 3:54pm
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moogaloonie
Total Posts: 64
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I think I would give 7.5 (with the patch) a 7.5. It's always going to score a little lower with the bridge there in my book. Even though it is a big step forward from 7.11. I wouldn't score it in the 9 range until the bridge is gone. And I do think that when the new architecture can stand on it's own, it will be in the 9 range. :D
Finally, I get these low ratings. Yeah, full migration will certainly be welcome. There's some other things I think need to be addressed, but maybe they're in there and no one uses them. I don't see alot of fire, smoke, water or weather in many animations in the gallery. Same with cloth... |
Post by xmanflash // May 18, 2007, 3:54pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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I agree on every single point!
Me too - but again - Demo on Monday :-) |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 18, 2007, 3:56pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I think Roman's exact words were "if all goes well" ;)
It's a target just like the 7.5 release date was a target. So don't get too excited if it's pushed back to say.... Tuesday.... :p :D
-Jack. |
Post by transient // May 18, 2007, 4:35pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I'm just wondering why they're bringing out the demo before the first patch? a lot of the bugs have been fixed from what I've been reading. |
Post by xmanflash // May 18, 2007, 8:02pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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I think Roman's exact words were "if all goes well" ;)
It's a target just like the 7.5 release date was a target. So don't get too excited if it's pushed back to say.... Tuesday.... :p :D
-Jack.
yeah yeah - ok ok - Tuesday it is then... :D
seriously, I dont care how quick, just make it Goood! |
Post by achilles // May 18, 2007, 8:25pm
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achilles
Total Posts: 24
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Hallo, i think Caligari has to work for next release of TS in some aspect of the program that are too old respect what offer other 3d software (Nurbs, shaders, particles, animation) and make a more coherent interface, that's now an hybrid between the older one and the newer.
I think too that Carrara isn't so better than TS isn't so immediate, but one that uses for 1st time TS7.5 my be confused with a so strange interface and not clear functionality and often hidden tools.
That's my opinion, but i'm not so expert in 3d programs i may be wrong.
Bye to all.
Achille |
Post by W!ZARD // May 19, 2007, 6:43am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I think I would give 7.5 (with the patch) a 7.5. It's always going to score a little lower with the bridge there in my book. Even though it is a big step forward from 7.11. I wouldn't score it in the 9 range until the bridge is gone. And I do think that when the new architecture can stand on it's own, it will be in the 9 range. :D
You may have a point but I can't help thinking you're looking at the half empty glass - I think the bridge is something that should rate tS 7.5 higher if anything. How many other programes have such a degree of backwards compatability as tS with the bridge from old architecture to new? The bridge offers us the best of both worlds IMHO. |
Post by nowherebrain // May 19, 2007, 10:05am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Yes, the bridge can be turned off, and it adds functionality in a sense. I'm not too good at speculating what a "magazin/e-zine" would rate tS as, I would give 7.5 a 6 probably, but I also recomend it to everyone...so go figure. I own silo and have not touched it(or beta 9e)since I received 7.5. If v-ray was the default renderer and Caligari could maintain their price point I would give it and 8.x....When 8.0 is available I think it will be a far superior piece of kit and I would rate it as a 9.5 possibly. 8.0 will be the "real deal" IMO.
@you know who you are:
I sent you something....it's kinda goofy.
Let me know what you think. |
Post by moogaloonie // May 19, 2007, 12:53pm
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moogaloonie
Total Posts: 64
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Please everyone, let's not be too optimistic ;) The bridge does not add functionality, it preserves it. It's like if you had to take a bridge to an island you used to live on, where all of your stuff is. Someday all of your stuff will be off the island (having crossed the bridge?), and you won't have to take the bridge anymore to visit your stuff. It's good to have the bridge, but I hope I never see "bridge to older version architecture to provide access to as yet unported stuff" as a bullet point in the ad copy. (I'm trying to imagine George Carlin saying the "stuff" part) |
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