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3D World Review is in
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
3D World Review is in // Roundtable
Post by Garion // Mar 24, 2006, 4:18am
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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My subscription copy of 3D World dropped through the door today with its review of Truespace 7.
The Score on the Door = 6
Which, I have to say is more than I thought it would get :)
It is a pretty fair review with truespace in its current State, the reviewer commenting on the promise of the New Architecture and lamenting the ageing toolset in the TS6.6 part. The incosistances with the Bridge and question the claim of realtime shaders etc in Player view among others.
I have written to 3D WOrld to ask if I can post the review for Truespace Users to read, but I daresay I won't be allowed.
Cheers
Garion |
Post by splinters // Mar 24, 2006, 8:11am
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Nothing to stop you summarising though Garion....;)
I was going to pick up my copy tomorrow (it's usually in the shops the Saturday before it's listed date) but I am curious as to why it got this score and who actually reviewed it. Was it John Logan.
Could you give the final 3 scores; features, value for money etc?
I am really intrigued to read it now...although a little deflated after all the hard that went into the program....:o
Save me a trip-any goodies in this months edition? |
Post by KeithC // Mar 24, 2006, 8:29am
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Total Posts: 467
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Is that 6 out of 10? How did TrueSpace fair compared to Carrara (since it seems to be a bit of a direct competitor)? |
Post by Garion // Mar 24, 2006, 8:39am
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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The 3 Scores are Features 7, Value for money 6 over all 6.
The main gripes are the lack of features, compared to the competition and the age old gripes about all the icons. There is doubt as to the usefulness of shared space and a local LAN version for Teams in the same place is on the wish list. The claim of realtime photo realism in Player is also being taken with a pinch of salt and the general slugishness an unreliablility of the Bridge took a knock too.
The LE was regarded as a positive step, but the conclusion is that with the drop in price of Lightwave et-al it will not temp converts and new users would be well asvise to shop around.
They did say that as a foundation, for future developement it was ok, but....
As for Carrerra I believe though, could be wrong that it got a 9.
I am rushing out the door in 5 mins, but will update this with a better synopsis later tonight or tomorrow.
Edit : The reviewer is Anthony Ware and on the CD they have the Full version of Carrara 2.1, some models and texture's
Cheers
Garion |
Post by CdeB // Mar 24, 2006, 8:52am
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This is disappointing -looks like a tS user that didn't like the transition :o .
6 is unfortunately the lowest score of all the 3Dworld * software reviews. Compared to Carrara: 8 and notably tS6.6 also 8. Whilst it has been a common assertion that tS7.0 is a WIP (which I don't agree with) I suspect this was the view of the particular reviewer. I wonder whether they recognised the quantum leap of the new architecture, never mind the new rendering capabilities. The collaborative aspects whilst very innovative were always going to be less easy to sell as people were wanting tS to catch up with other programs rather than overtake them in a direction nobody had really seriously considered before. Hopefully, tS7.1 and 7.5 will fare better and other reviews will be more favourable. I still think they did the right thing....repairing the old architecture was never go to run..and we would have all complained if there was no backward compatibility...
(*this info from previous edition of 3D world ...still waiting for current issue. |
Post by KeithC // Mar 24, 2006, 9:07am
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I think it's going to boil down to 3 things for Caligari: Stability, Competitive Animation tools (w/ working bones), and a working demo (can't say that enough). Without those things, I'm afraid a new user off the street may just decide to spend that extra $200 to get Lightwave (that has all the tools), or spend $100 less to get XSI/Foundation (that has some of the best animation tools out there). I still think the online collaboration was a waste of time, but I've been wrong before.
-Keith |
Post by CdeB // Mar 24, 2006, 9:22am
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...by the way one thing that really does show off the new architecture and realtime benefits is truePlay and unfortunately this wasn't released with the release of the program and thus I guess not in the review. This capability is still one of the strongest innovations that comes with the new architecture IMHO. A freely distributed player that behaves more like a game engine with tS7.0 scenes. This works well without the collaborative online dimension...hopefully this omission with be soon corrected... |
Post by KeithC // Mar 24, 2006, 9:27am
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I admit the Trueplay feature is an enticing aspect of TS7; especially for showing your clients progress, and making their changes in real-time. No other app. has anything like this as far as I know (yet). We'll see how quickly they can get that up and running before people take their money elsewhere.
-Keith |
Post by Délé // Mar 24, 2006, 9:44am
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To be honest, this is about what I expected from a review right now. There's a lot of fantastic new advancements in TS7 but they're not all immediately apparent and there's a lot of potential that has yet to be fully exposed. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a whole different song by 7.5. |
Post by geneg // Mar 24, 2006, 9:54am
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hi Gang:
For those of you who don't know, Anthony Ware has been a tS user for many many moons. He is one of the most knowledable people here. His Nick on the forums is 'Bobbins'. His Nick also states he is a Beta Tester.
Writing a review of a program is a thankless task, you can't please everyone. I say Kudos to Anthony for trying to give the straight scoop and be as unbiased as possible. tS7 got a 6 out of 10 from him, but if you read these forums and the tSML you will notice that Bobbins is everywhere handing out information, correcting mis-information and helping people as best he can. He is a staunch supporter of trueSpace.
geneg |
Post by e-graffiti // Mar 24, 2006, 10:31am
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I hope that Bobbins will give us a "behind the scene" discussion of his review and I would love to read what he thinks tS needs to be a better competitor in the 3D market space. |
Post by optimiztic // Mar 24, 2006, 10:44am
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While this review may be important to Caligari (for sales), it is irrelevant to me. After working with tS7 for a while, I know exactly what I like about it and what I don't. I don't use tS7 professionally and am not hindered by any lack of features or minor (or major) bugs. Much of the artwork that appears in this forum is, to me, both incredible and beyond my current reach. I use tS7 as a form of entertainment (along with IQ puzzles), and I have no intention of trying to learn another 3D program. tS7 is complicated enough, and it gives me all the puzzle-solving exercise I need. Those of you who do real work should use whatever is comfortable and gets the job done (if tS7 isn't doing it for you).
I believe that Roman has original ideas and a highy advanced vision for the evolution of 3D graphics tools. IMHO, his ideas border on 'genius,' if not being completely over the line. His problem lies in being able to implement those ideas (if possible) and to relay them to his (highly intelligent) customer base. tS7 is obviously the result of many years of thought about how things should be done, and it is a changeling, a morph between tS6.6 and the current state of Roman's philosophy. He has expanded on the object-oriented nature of computer languages in creating the LE, a device with the potential for phenomenal flexibility and power derived from only a few building blocks. He understands that real-time rendering may ultimately remove a lengthy step from the iterative graphics development process.
Each time that I am frustrated by the current duality of tS7, I remind myself that the program has (or will have) the power to do what I want, if I can only understand how to use it. Basic training helps a lot but let's face it, advanced graphics programming is complicated, and tS7 tasks can quickly drop you down to the script level. Again, look at the value of the LE in this respect.
I look forward to seeing tS7 evolve into a single entity, the Player, defined by an infinitely configurable set of basic building blocks in the LE. I think the closer the program gets to Roman's vision, the more smoothly it will operate. In any case, I'm along for the ride and patiently waiting to see what comes next.
Don |
Post by splinters // Mar 24, 2006, 10:45am
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I am surprised that Anware did the review. It must be difficult writing a review that speaks negatively about a function that you may well know is under development or fixed in latest beta. Equally, it must be difficult to write about fixed features when you may be aware of the developments for the next point upgrade.
I will wait until I have read the full review before speculating any further but I was hoping for a review from a 'fresh' pair of eyes; someone familiar with TS but not a long term tester of TS7.
However, this is just my opinion and I mean no negativity towards Anware..like I said-I need to read the review myself, not just another person's summary..:) But it would be interesting to engage in a 'discussion' about it.
optimiztic; I agree with you to some extent but all too often 'genius' is misunderstood.
There is a saying; "True genius is often undervalued at the time of it's creation".
Without seeing Caligari's business plan I would still guess that it needs sales to survive..negative reviews might not bother you as you already made your decision (and purchase) but could put off a lot of potential buyers..if Caligari were to go under (purely hypothetical) then surely Roman would never see his 'genius ideas' come to fruition. Catch 22.. |
Post by e-graffiti // Mar 24, 2006, 11:17am
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Total Posts: 171
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Roman is definitely trying to get good reviews(resulting in new users). I recall while beta testing tS7 I found that the icon group buttons no longer fully expanded to show all the buttons in a particular group. The response I got back (perhaps from you Splinters) was that Caligari was trying to appeal to the reviewers. Certainly many of us that are faithful users of tS wanted our fully expanded button groups back but we did not get it. It was apparent that Roman is rightfuly concerned about attracting new users.
There really is a ripe market of mature and cutting edge 3d packages out there and prices are not so out of reach as they were in the past. My question is "what would it take for us faithful users of tS to confidently recommend tS7 over the other packages out there that a new-user could pick from?" |
Post by splinters // Mar 24, 2006, 11:39am
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I recall while beta testing tS7 I found that the icon group buttons no longer fully expanded to show all the buttons in a particular group. The response I got back (perhaps from you Splinters) was that Caligari was trying to appeal to the reviewers. Certainly many of us that are faithful users of tS wanted our fully expanded button groups back but we did not get it. It was apparent that Roman is rightfuly concerned about attracting new users.
Not sure if you just worded this wrong e-graffiti, but Roman removed expanding toolbar because reviewers were always expanding them all for screengrabs so the UI looked far too messy. So he was definitely not appealing to the reviewers. Good news is that he is looking to put this feature back in very soon thanks to user demand (and a working mockup :rolleyes: )
As for reasons to adopt TS...a migration of all major model side tools to the player side would be a start followed by character animation, fur etc. and a fully featured Vray....:jumpy: Ironically, they are all on the way... |
Post by KeithC // Mar 24, 2006, 11:43am
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Total Posts: 467
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Yeah, I remember a poll going awhile ago about putting the expandable toolbars back in. After a few days, Roman came on and said that because of the users continued requests for it that it would go back in on the next release. So he's still paying attention to us and our needs, which makes me optimistic about the future. *cough*demo*cough*
-Keith |
Post by optimiztic // Mar 24, 2006, 11:54am
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Splinters, you are exactly right. My view is very much from the outside, and I am only a user. However, I do understand the need for sales, so I bought tS7 and VRay, and I will discuss the LE (enthusiastically) with anyone who'll listen. The complexity of tS7 is so extreme that it makes me cringe to think of all the effort that went into creating it. Thank you, by the way, for all the work you guys did in heping to get it ready.
With respect to Roman's creativity, there is no question from me. I was aware of his innovative style before, but when I started reading the tS7 DG it sounded more like the introduction to a quantum mechanics book (making the observer part of the experiment), or maybe Roger Penrose questioning the nature of the mind and the application of mathematical laws to an objective universe. What I mean to say is that Roman is approaching the problem like Descartes, from the ground up. I'm willing to invest time and effort to understand what he has to say, because I believe I can learn from it.
I enjoy ts7, and I will be on board for the next (paying) version. While I don't need someone else's review of tS7 to form an opinion (since I use it extensively myself), it doesn't mean that I don't care what they think or that I am indifferent to Caligari's success.
Don
Don |
Post by splinters // Mar 24, 2006, 12:15pm
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My view is very much from the outside, and I am only a user. Don
And you are exactly the group that TS should appeal to, not Beta testers. We get all versions to test, we don't have to dig deep into our pockets to play with TS. We don't make the best purchasers.....;) |
Post by e-graffiti // Mar 24, 2006, 2:05pm
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Total Posts: 171
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Not sure if you just worded this wrong e-graffiti, but Roman removed expanding toolbar because reviewers were always expanding them all for screengrabs so the UI looked far too messy.
Splinters, I mis-worded calling the toolbar "icon group buttons", but I am still under the impression the reviewers, or atleast the review process, influenced the toolbar behavior modification based on the responses I got from Caligari. Except for its early years and ts 6.6, tS has gotten low to middle ratings by the popular graphics publications. I also tend to ignore the reviewers (rather it be software or movie reviews), but because Caligari is taking tS in a new direction that is still developing, I am not surprised by the review results. |
Post by splinters // Mar 24, 2006, 2:21pm
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All will be revealed tomorrow I hope. As for toolbars, this is what I am hoping to see-certainly Roman seems keen.... |
Post by chrono // Mar 24, 2006, 4:35pm
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optimiztic; I agree with you to some extent but all too often 'genius' is misunderstood.
There is a saying; "True genius is often undervalued at the time of it's creation".
Without seeing Caligari's business plan I would still guess that it needs sales to survive..negative reviews might not bother you as you already made your decision (and purchase) but could put off a lot of potential buyers..if Caligari were to go under (purely hypothetical) then surely Roman would never see his 'genius ideas' come to fruition. Catch 22..
When I read that, splinters, I'm reminded of the various 'geniuses' throughout history. They love to do what they do, but leave the clean-up for someone else. I view TS as an original engine design that works, but it incredibly rough(think of some of the first engine designs) requiring a team of enigeeners(spl) and customer feedback to get to the more finished designs of today. Right now TS is clearly in transision from a 60-70's something car to an early 2000's car. Plain functionality, but it's missing somethings that make it a hughly quality product. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 24, 2006, 7:08pm
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It's hard to do reviews.
It's hard to separate what is preference versus what is truly quantifiably better. It's really hard to do when you only have a range of 1-10.
I wonder what the criteria 3D World magazine mandates it's reviewers to adhere to? 3D World has to keep an air of integrity, so they can't just print hype (in it's reviews). But 6, being the horrible score that it is, still surprised me. IMO, this low review owes itself to the fact that the program failed to live up to the expectation that users had. |
Post by chrono // Mar 25, 2006, 3:08am
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Remember the score Animation Master got something like 2-3 versions ago? It was like a 3! It had some of the better animation tools out there, but it's stability was garbage. BUT this kicked the company in the can and got them to develop a rock solid program. So what I'm saying is that while the review maybe honest, brutually so, it can be turned around and the score itself IS slightly above average.
And to be honest the update was Caligari's now ingrained & highly tradional features before refinement update that offered not only the same tooling 99.9% without change, but also highly confusing interface change. The people's expectations were that they were getting a new TS and that's what they got! A new TS that is highly changed and with the look of being an 'unpolished' product.
I give Caligari TOTAL props for bringing in some solid features(the displacement brush which brings INCREDIBLE power to TS, link editor which places it beyond LW in power, and tool docking which really clears up the work area), but throughly morn the nearly complete lack of polishing that the new version should've gotten with all the hype about years of development.
So "6" is a nice score, but.... |
Post by behzad // Mar 25, 2006, 5:14am
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Garion please check your private email. thanx |
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2006, 5:23am
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I wonder what the criteria 3D World magazine mandates it's reviewers to adhere to? 3D World has to keep an air of integrity, so they can't just print hype (in it's reviews). But 6, being the horrible score that it is, still surprised me. IMO, this low review owes itself to the fact that the program failed to live up to the expectation that users had.
Actually, I read the review toady and 6 is about right. It reads like a preview of a forthcoming piece of software and there are many omissions from the 7.1 lineup. To be honest 7.1 would get about 7/10 and I could well see 7.5, if it ports majority of model tools to player and comes up trumps with character animation, getting an 8 or 9/10.
But all that is academic now the review is done. Some damage limitation would be helped by a demo.....;) |
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2006, 1:27pm
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The main gripes are the lack of features, compared to the competition and the age old gripes about all the icons. Garion
Garion, I could find no reference to a gripe about icons....:confused:
Only the closing comments that the GUI needs some work. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 25, 2006, 1:50pm
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I haven't read it nor intend to. :)
I suppose the ultimate showdown would be a 1 on 1 contest, or a multiple group contest.
Assign a project where ONLY the application can be used, no plug-ins, no outside renderers, no external help.
Build from scratch an assigned model with only a 2D image(s) to go by and animate it.
I hear everyone say that tS is weak in animation, maybe this would be awake up call. Get a film studio to sponsor the contest and supply independent judges from the field, like 3DBuzz or w/e.
Winner would get a small cash prize and a large ego trip. The application used as the winner would reap in tons of cash for the company designing it.
That would be a put up or shut up proposition. |
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2006, 2:39pm
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Not sure what your point is here James. This thread is about the review TS got with regards to it being incomplete and/or lacking certain features. Not that it was not as good or capable as (insert name of 3D program). 3D World is a major publication in the UK and I, for one, am concerned about any negativity TS might get as a result of the review. To ignore it is your choice but I made a point of reading it.
Really looking at the reasons it did not score so high and the effect that might have on peoples perceptions of it and the inevitable sales...
Just what other program(s) were you suggesting a showdown with? |
Post by brianalldridge // Mar 25, 2006, 2:52pm
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They should have reviewed the tools it does have, rather than deplete from its score for not having the animation tools yet. It's almost as unfair as giving terragen a low score for not having modeling tools would be. When the animation tools do come out, review them then, or not at all. |
Post by Garion // Mar 25, 2006, 3:14pm
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Only the closing comments that the GUI needs some work
Heheh, yup that would be the Icons :) I was being tongue in cheek there as every review I have ever read of Truespace has commented on the GUI and its multitude of little pictures :)
The Icons are nice, they just seem to be breeding like rabbits with each version of TS thats released :)
As for the score, I don't think it was just the lack of animation tools that caused the score to drop, its a sad truth that featrueset of TS is now lagging behind the competition.
The marketplace has changed drastically in the last couple of years, what with the price drops of the so-called big apps, Truespace has a lot more competition in its market Slot now.
Cheers
Garion |
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