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2009 to be an important year for trueSpace
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
2009 to be an important year for trueSpace // Roundtable
Post by RAYMAN // May 7, 2009, 4:41am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Thats the big question........ is Truespace only a tool for hobbiest users ?
While some soft like Softimage XSI go digital ICE and Lightwave goes Core....
Whos the audience for Truespace ?:rolleyes: |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 7, 2009, 5:01am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Been asking myself that a lot lately.
Clearly trueSpace is fine for game content development, since it has a good poly modeling toolset and triangulation tools, plus the real time view is a very good indicator of how the model will look in-game.
But for professional stuff like illustration, archviz, and the like, its just not at a comparable level with other apps and the 1 Million polygon limitation is really crippling for high detail renders.
Same for animation. Lots of potential, but it hasn't been polished into a production ready system.
Loosing VRay was a huge blow. $299 was a great price point for VRay. It should be relatively straight forward to code a plugin to interface with the stand alone when that comes out, but it'll take time and there needs to be a large enough market to justify it. The question is, are people who can afford to pay $1000 for their render engine going to bother with trueSpace? Again the 1M polygon limitiation is a serious problem for professionals. |
Post by frootee // May 7, 2009, 5:05am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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well, I'm curious.
How many truespace users use the truespace forums?
Are the only active users of truespace also actively contributing questions
and answers in these forums?
Are the forums a strong indication of the usage of truespace, by all users
(those who use these forums, and those who don't)? |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 7, 2009, 5:21am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Tom says no. That many of the users are like Rich described the Silo users. For rentention of those users better training resources are what's needed since they don't participate here to get help.
My worry is that trueSpace has become a very technical application and there's only a limited number of people who have the knowledge and skills to put it to use. The current training videos are outdated and of little use to a new user. :( |
Post by RichLevy // May 7, 2009, 5:26am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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TomG would have you believe that the great majority of TS users do not connect with the Forums, I have to agree with him... but I do not think TS is in it's present condition a viable product for commercial artists (not to say that there are not many of them using it). Mostly that is because of the schizophrenic nature of the program right now. Than there are the missing features and the unusable features.
I would think that the only thing you can consider the forums useful for is gauging interest in a feature, or the popularity of something about TS... each complaint/comment indicates a certain percentage of user's interested in some feature.
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // May 7, 2009, 5:33am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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My worry is that trueSpace has become a very technical application and there's only a limited number of people who have the knowledge and skills to put it to use. The current training videos are outdated and of little use to a new user. :(
Very true Jack, you see examples around here time to time of someone who has truly come to grips with TS and learned how to make their own creativity come thru with it. Marcels' present project is such an example, he is demonstrating the usefulness of the program, using each side of it to it's best advantage and making some wonderful animations/story.
In order for training videos to really work and draw in people they have to be able to do what Marcel is showing, high qualtiy output and interesting training. I'll buy quality training like that, I do all of the time for other programs. An example, I just bought some training for another program, not for the modeling, I am pretty good with that, but to learn to do the high quality rendering that they showed the models in. I think that is something that is missing in TS training, the oputput from many of the videos looks like a "hobbiest" program.
Just some random thoughts.
rich |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 7, 2009, 5:38am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Very good points. UV mapping is definitely an area that stops a lot of users from creating good results and the current material system is beyond technical... :eek:
I got the website up and YafaRay4tS released... today might be a good day to record a basic UV mapping vid... :cool: |
Post by RichLevy // May 7, 2009, 5:46am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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UVE would be nice and is a good start. Now someone tie down Parva and Prodigy and get them to do videos on what they have learned with TS WS side realtime rendering and making DX shaders and placing them on the objects on the scene. Demonstrate how to set up the lights to create realistic realtime indoor and outdoor environments... Get Noko to show how he is building all the wonderful little tools he makes for TS realtime. You, Dele and TB on what you have learned in the LE and how to push that end of the program. Not nuts and bolts stuff, things that push the user to see what the system is capable of... meaning they/we need visuals of what the program is capable of. That is where the program is and why no one ventures in to the WS side.
Just some random thoughts.
Rich |
Post by Steinie // May 7, 2009, 5:58am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Hey SteveBe made a tutorial demonstrating the steps to create a slider which controls a box lid in LE/workSpace.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/blog.php?b=322
Little tutorials like this make understanding the LE easier and easier.
Hey don't forget to thank him in the Blog!:banana: |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 7, 2009, 6:00am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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@ Rich :banana:
The other thing is that we need to move toward commercializing and monetizing our trueSpace efforts. Users need to be willing and get comfortable with putting out money to support 3rd party developers. The everything for free mentality is hurting our growth a lot.
So I would say free "nuts and bolts" type videos are ok, but the WOW stuff needs to be for pay even if it's small amounts like $5-$10.
Edit:
@Steinie, AWESOME! That needs a thread with a discription and link on the main forum. Bummer I can give Steve any reputation points from his blog. :D |
Post by v3rd3 // May 7, 2009, 6:30am
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v3rd3
Total Posts: 388
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I think the investment in plugins etc is really a matter of the users view of the cup being 1/2 empty or 1/2 full. Negative sentiment is certainly bringing this thing down hard.
Let's face it. If a user perceives plugins being developed as being something the product should already have, they discount the value to nothing. Whether the plugin simply helps or sends TS into the stratosphere.
The frustrating thing is the lack of a statement of the vision for TS. Without it the user community are left creating their own.
The news that Roman is taking over the development of VE seems to signal one possible future. If that is the only future then TS becomes an extensible niche product. The extensible side of things is nice but the issue I have with that is the upside limit on future users. The only individuals interested will then have to be coders or, at the very least, sufficiently capable to manage loading non-standardized scripts and plugins to create their preferred environment. [The non-standardized remark is not a concern regarding code quality et al but simple things like no control to stop 2 plugins from having the same name.... ]
The thing that attracted me to part with my hard earned dollars for 6.6 was the idea that I did not have to code to create animations or art. In that sense I include my experience as being typical of the hobbyist wannabe that seeks to hammer their way through to some kind of revenue from an expensive hobby. Essentially, the first year university students that create the revenue universities need to survive.
Unless we can create the impression that users with interests beyond VE can thrive with this tool then we are heading toward being a one trick pony. I would personally like to see TS regarded as something more than a half decent modeller.
Like a lot of you I see the potential therefore my interest remains.
Also, I am not blind so I see the faults as well. |
Post by marcel // May 7, 2009, 7:10am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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As I said to each thread that discusses the future of Truespace: Do not expect better tools to start a creation. I spent 30 years waiting for the latest version of the latest software. Now I know it does not matter. When TS 7.61 released, everyone will require TS 7.62. It is the disease of this century. I have no quad core, no mobil phone (it is truel) and no car (it is also true) but I do lots of things. :D |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 7, 2009, 8:18am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Marcel is definitely right. Waiting for tools to produce your art and you'll always be waiting for the next tool. The same thing goes for training. You can spend years learning and learning, but what it really takes is creative vision and "doing".
But we do need to be aware that perception of the future of a software is very important to it's success. Even great software is often discarded soon after it's development stops. 3D is definitely one of those fields where stand still = death, even more so than others. I agree what is needed from Roman (and Caligari) right now is not announcements of features, but of goals and visions for the future of trueSpace.
It's important to note that the current architecture for trueSpace allows 3rd party plugins to be easily integrated into future releases as native plugins, so in many ways 3rd party development may be just as important as in house development by Caligari.
These things take time though and those of us interested in plugin development are just now getting our heads around the trueSpace SDK. In the next few weeks I'm planning to start a trueSpace plugin developer community so that we can help other developers get up to speed more quickly and to share in coding solutions. With that we'll better be able to focus our collective ability toward solving remaining needs in the software. If you follow the forums it's clear that there's already a good number of significant plugins in the works. Froo's OBJ plugin, Stan's layers plugin, Clintonman's MD5 and UT3 plugins, Robert's intelligent particle script, etc. Personally, I've got 31 plugin ideas already currently on my todo list. Even though development from Caligari has been reletively limited this year likely because of their commitments to Microsoft, this could still be a very big year for trueSpace and trueSpace development. |
Post by Steinie // May 7, 2009, 8:47am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Who is going to code the next plug in loader/installer? Lets say I have 20 must have plugins, and my software gets reset. With a loader all of them get loaded at once. Possible?
For whatever reason occasionally my settings become a mess and I must load each one again. Pain in the butt to remember which ones I had used before and which version. |
Post by stan // May 7, 2009, 9:15am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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its already there Bob..save a copy of your default.ctx when everything is ok and use it to replace the reset one. very easy.. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 7, 2009, 9:28am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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There's an XML file in the scripts directory that stores all the plugin load info, you may want to back that up as well. It'd be fairly simple to write a plugin that can back up and restore these key files. Sounds like a good idea Steinie. I've got it in my todo list by it's not near the top, so hopefully some one will beat me to it. ;) |
Post by frootee // May 7, 2009, 9:36am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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well there is also that fluid sim importer plugin floating around... :) |
Post by Stem // May 7, 2009, 10:54am
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Marcel is definitely right. Waiting for tools to produce your art and you'll always be waiting for the next tool.
I am not waiting for new tools, just waiting for the tools already in place to work as they should.
Galigari really need to get issues/bugs fixed first, rather than trying to get more new tools in place, certainly when new tools can lead to new problems.
As for plugins. I would really like to see an obj importer for the workspace/side, and yes, I would pay for such a plugin(if it works correctly). The current obj importers in the model side just destroys most of the models I attempt to load.
- Stem |
Post by GraySho // May 7, 2009, 11:21am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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I agree that there´s no big need for new tools, there´s need to improve and streamline the UI and workflow. For me tS will be interesting again when it feels like one uniform program that can be handeled and customized without scripting and indepth knowledge of tS philosophy. Until then I´ll sit back and watch what´s going to happen or move on to something else. |
Post by RAYMAN // May 8, 2009, 9:40am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Burnart you will like it !:D LOL ! |
Post by Finis // May 8, 2009, 12:13pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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I agree that there´s no big need for new tools, there´s need to improve and streamline the UI and workflow. For me tS will be interesting again when it feels like one uniform program that can be handeled and customized without scripting and indepth knowledge of tS philosophy. Until then I´ll sit back and watch what´s going to happen or move on to something else.
Yes. As a hobbyist I want one program that is my base of operations. Mostly complete in tools and reasonably, um, not difficult to use for most things. Advanced features like scripting and LE, and Plugins and import/export for extra, super good, or specialty stuff but not necessary for regular stuff.
The two sided TS should never have been released.
The quality just just isn't there now. TS can't be trusted with large amounts of my effort or time. TS as it is isn't something I intend to use for advancement of my skill as a hobbyist or for anything but simple projects that use the features I know work.
If I ever have time to do ambitious 3D hobby projects then I'll learn Blender, or preferably have money to get some 3D products from other companies, or just not do the project.
I'm looking at "return on investment". Why would I fight TS to do something when I could use another product and do the same thing with less effort or get better results for the same effort?
Dump your brand loyalty. Be a good consumer. If a company's product isn't as good a value as another's then use the other's. Make companies compete for your dollar or use of their product.
(Yes TS is free for now. MS isn't getting dollars for it but they benefit somehow from people using it -- otherwise TS wouldn't exist. So it is, "MS, you want to benefit from me using your product? Tell me why yours is better for me than the other guy's or I'll use his.)
Return on investment ... I'm supposed to be fine tuning my search based advertisements but I'm writing this? Focus ... focus. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 8, 2009, 1:11pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Heh, I know the feeling. I'm waiting on a hosting support ticket, so I dropped in. ;)
Took me all night yesterday, but I did finally decide on what CMS to use for the developer community forum. So I should be able to start developing that soon. :) |
Post by Steinie // May 8, 2009, 1:39pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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In the News
"Microsoft on Thursday enhanced its Virtual Earth online mapping service with Photosynth technology that melds pictures to create 3D views of places and spaces.
The move allows businesses or government agencies to provide virtual tours of locations displayed online with 360-degree views...
Photosynth software analyzes digital photographs and generates 3D models by "stitching" the photos together to create seamless views. These models, dubbed "synths," are viewed using Microsoft's Silverlight technology.
"With the integration of Photosynth into Virtual Earth customers will be able to create detailed 3-D views of anything from places to products and from hotels to homes," Microsoft said."
and PC Mag.
"Microsoft first began letting anyone use Photosynth about eight months ago. Since then, people have uploaded 12 million photos to build 350,000 synths, Microsoft said."
http://photosynth.net/Default.aspx
http://www.liveside.net/main/archive/2009/04/29/visualizing-swine-flu-on-virtual-earth.aspx
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/microsoft_photosynth_goes_to_work.php |
Post by RAYMAN // May 8, 2009, 1:45pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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If it were that simple ! But i dont see it that way.
Theres lots of aplications around and many good ones.
The studios that make the big movies dont rely on 1 software.
So theres nothing bad in using more then 1 app to get you where you
want to get to.If you look at the last final fantasy film the 3d
renders and material were all done in different enviroments and then layered together.Just take Truespace for what its good for or any other software
and put all together. I dont take part in the truespace community contests because the "stay in Truespace for everything" is against my concept of doing things in 3d.....
But very many things are faster in other software so thereis also lots of truth in what you say Finis !
Ps .: Interesting Steinie cann we have a link please... !? |
Post by frootee // May 8, 2009, 1:54pm
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Thanks for the info Steinie.
Maybe that means they're done with that stuff for awhile then. |
Post by Steinie // May 8, 2009, 1:58pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Rayman,
Updated original post. |
Post by noko // May 8, 2009, 2:30pm
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noko
Total Posts: 684
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tS has been being formed by the users. Many things in it are from community work. Very interesting discussion going on here but so many things have come about either by script, LE linking or SDK by us. YafaRay4tS intergrates well as it is, right into Workspace. I am very amazed at the quality and U/I for YafaRay4tS. Many high quality shaders for DX are from us users as well. I almost come to the conclussion that what we have now is the most moldable, versatile piece of software ever created and truthfully way ahead or very future like working. The ease to modify, upgrade and change things around is probably unmatched by anyone else. So in the end, I believe the future of tS depends on the users and what we do with it. |
Post by Finis // May 8, 2009, 2:59pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Rayman, you are right about using various software ... if you need or want the best in various aspects of 3D. That's what the import/export, plugins, etc. would be for ... connecting to super stuff (Kerkythea), import models from Modo, export for rigging and animation in something else.
Professionals this, big studios that ... note that I was speaking of hobbyists. A hobbyist is well served by a program that does most things adequately even if it isn't awesome in anything. He probably doesn't want to learn 50 different programs to get better performance in each of 50 different things. If he does want better in some things then plugins and import/export should be there.
Pros of course will use whatever they need and piece it together.
On consumerism it is that simple. If one product is a better value than another then you move to the other. It doesn't matter if the product is the one and only such thing you use or if it is one tool in your tool box. What isn't simple is what "value" means. |
Post by marcel // May 8, 2009, 10:36pm
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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Big company can use many soft because they have many people with a specialist for each soft. When you are alone it is difficult to be good with many soft at the same time. I use TS because i know well the soft, it is the only one reason. sometime i try other soft with better function but i come back alway in TS. I have no time to learn all my life. But i use often particule Illusion and Wirefusion, sometime Poser and other plugins. I found the combination of software that suits me for my work. That's the most important. |
Post by GraySho // May 9, 2009, 12:35am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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tS has been being formed by the users. Many things in it are from community work. Very interesting discussion going on here but so many things have come about either by script, LE linking or SDK by us. YafaRay4tS intergrates well as it is, right into Workspace. I am very amazed at the quality and U/I for YafaRay4tS. Many high quality shaders for DX are from us users as well. I almost come to the conclussion that what we have now is the most moldable, versatile piece of software ever created and truthfully way ahead or very future like working. The ease to modify, upgrade and change things around is probably unmatched by anyone else. So in the end, I believe the future of tS depends on the users and what we do with it.
I agree that it has become very flexible, but I don´t see much or any improvement regarding output quality and workflow. There are a handfull of people like Parva and others who really use the new capabilities to do art and not just doodles within workspace. Many useres still use tS 6.6 or model side of tS 7.x. My point is that for me tS 7.6 still is a patchwork and doesn´t feel like 3D Art is the main aspect of it, it´s rather a little bit of everything halfway done and heavily relying on legacy tools to fill out the gaps.
The scripting thing and LE is nice to have, but it should not be the driving thing to get something done. |
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