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Feb 9, 2001, 8:01pm

I'd like to say something about realism vs abstraction. In art history realism/naturalism had a peek around the renaissance; when brunelleschi et al found out how to make perspective drawings. Since then realism in itself has lost it's position in art, and even in renaissance paintings there are something higher than pure realism; e.g.. how the colors dynamically counterbalance each other etc. The funny thing is that when fine arts on one hand has tried to move away from realism, computer graphics is going to exact opposite way.

In saying this I don't mean that realism in AW is wrong, just that I find it peculiar that so little research/testing is put into more abstract worlds. And if the intention of AW is to compete with html we need to investigate concepts as: representation, abstraction, analogy, metaphor etc.

ps: I think the reflectivity issue is more a renderware feature than an AW feature.

[View Quote] > The idea is that AW needs to actually sit down and get creative...
> Reflectivity (mirrors) are a business addition because it makes things more
> realistic (which is the point isn't it?) from a subtle reflection in a
> window or water to a full length mirror... it's the small things that trick
> the user into thinking it's realistic.
>
> The more realistically a product is shown in 3D the more a user will think
> it's serious and not just a "chat environment". Believe it or not AW as a
> program is much more powerful than people know... it just takes the right
> talent to bring out the best in it :)

Feb 9, 2001, 10:11pm

this an argument? you should have seen what went on in the community ng..
wowowowowowow!

--
J B E L L
http://platinum.awjbell.com
G O I N G P L A T I N U M
[View Quote]

Feb 10, 2001, 1:28am

Uh, the realism movement came AFTER the Renaissance (at least 150 years after it, I might add). Yes, the 20th century had a lot of abstract movements, but in 3D computer graphics, of which AW is most definitely included in, realism is important. Realism doesn't have to mean boring or stagnant. Fantasy worlds can still be realistic in that they are believable, immersive environments. It's common to first introduce the gamer/user into a recognizeable environment (i.e. urban) and then gradually transform that environment into something less recognizeable (as in Half-Life with the aliens gradually populating the game more and more, with the player ending up on an alien world).

The neat thing about realism in AW is that world builders don't HAVE to implement it into their worlds if they don't want to. But to deny more realistic effects to those who are desiring it would be foolish for AW's development.

[View Quote] > I'd like to say something about realism vs abstraction. In art history realism/naturalism had a peek around the renaissance; when brunelleschi et al found out how to make perspective drawings. Since then realism in itself has lost it's position in art, and even in renaissance paintings there are something higher than pure realism; e.g.. how the colors dynamically counterbalance each other etc. The funny thing is that when fine arts on one hand has tried to move away from realism, computer graphics is going to exact opposite way.
>
> In saying this I don't mean that realism in AW is wrong, just that I find it peculiar that so little research/testing is put into more abstract worlds. And if the intention of AW is to compete with html we need to investigate concepts as: representation, abstraction, analogy, metaphor etc.
>
> ps: I think the reflectivity issue is more a renderware feature than an AW feature.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 10, 2001, 1:36am

whether aw's realistic or not, its still just a chat to me... and eep you're starting to scare me... you sound just like my history teacher YIKES

[View Quote] > Uh, the realism movement came AFTER the Renaissance (at least 150 years after it, I might add). Yes, the 20th century had a lot of abstract movements, but in 3D computer graphics, of which AW is most definitely included in, realism is important. Realism doesn't have to mean boring or stagnant. Fantasy worlds can still be realistic in that they are believable, immersive environments. It's common to first introduce the gamer/user into a recognizeable environment (i.e. urban) and then gradually transform that environment into something less recognizeable (as in Half-Life with the aliens gradually populating the game more and more, with the player ending up on an alien world).
>
> The neat thing about realism in AW is that world builders don't HAVE to implement it into their worlds if they don't want to. But to deny more realistic effects to those who are desiring it would be foolish for AW's development.
>
[View Quote]

Feb 10, 2001, 3:12pm

I'll take you off my filter list for now eep so we can have this discussion.

[View Quote] I might not have been precise enough when dealing with the concept of Realism in art. It is correct as you state that Realism as a movement did take place in the 19th century, but realism in the meaning of a correct/mathematical representation of the real world (mathematical perspective) came with the Renaissance. My intention was to describe the evolution of art from abstraction to realism to abstraction (to realism again?), while computer graphics/games are going from abstraction towards realism in a linear way - because of technology. In this process the rules of the game get blurred out or complicated. From rl games (ludo) to old computer games (as in 2d pacman) to new games (as Half-Life). Is Realism important? definitely. Is it the only way? I don't think so.

> Realism doesn't have to mean boring or stagnant. Fantasy worlds can still be realistic in that they are believable, immersive environments. It's common to first introduce the gamer/user into a recognizeable environment (i.e. urban) and then gradually transform that environment into something less recognizeable (as in Half-Life with the aliens gradually populating the game more and more, with the player ending up on an alien world).

I agree, I think their realness (or over realness/surrealism) is the strength of fantasy worlds (just take JRR's LOTR as an example, it feels very *real* to me even if it is fantasy).

>

I agree. My intention was never to say that AW should not implement realistic effects, I was just asking if there are something beyond realism worth exploring for world builders. I want AW to evolve to something more than just "a fun place to chat and build", but then people need to explore how to clarify the "rules". And I think the rules in your website are a lot clearer than the rules in your world(s) (eg. symbols for download/screenshot etc.)


>

Feb 10, 2001, 3:37pm

[View Quote] >
>
> I agree. My intention was never to say that AW should not implement realistic effects, I was just asking if there are something beyond realism worth exploring for world builders.

People have. Look at the ACCD (whatever it's called) world by that Art Center college; last time I went to it (probably at least a year or so ago) it had some fairly abstract stuff in it. I like making things look realistic because I feel realism is much more of a challenge than abstractism. It's easy to make something UNbelievable (unrealistic; just look at all the rehashed, overdone computer/video games involving aliens, demons, beasts, monsters, and other nonsensical crap) but it's much harder to make something believable (realistic).

> I want AW to evolve to something more than just "a fun place to chat and build", but then people need to explore how to clarify the "rules". And I think the rules in your website are a lot clearer than the rules in your world(s) (eg. symbols for download/screenshot etc.)

Rules? In my website and world? What do you mean?

Feb 10, 2001, 6:13pm

[View Quote] [View Quote] DAAP is a world with (abstract) digital sculptures, but it still has grass and fences etc. What I have yet to see in AW is an informative, abstract world with content that doesn't look like it's real world equivalent, but still is user friendly. I think TRON (the movie) is kind of what I think about when I say abstract world (but not necessarily). To put it another way: why does a mall in AW have to look like a real mall?

>
> Rules? In my website and world? What do you mean?

If you look at AW as a game, or even as a tool, it has some basic rules. Like if you click on a door, it might open, if you click on the horse in Mandalay you are teleported to the town etc. Working out rules like this is a lot like making a game. Some computer games have puzzles, you collect items and use them to solve the puzzle, but my question is this: can this be used for useful purposes? Will this be how we explore the web in the future? I for one hope so.

PS: I like the "new" eep, but how long will it last? I bet you are just dying to flame me, aren't you?

Feb 10, 2001, 6:22pm

[View Quote] [View Quote] Usefulness is relative. Entertainment is useful. 3D (VR) has been used for years in architecture, object modelling (cars, industrial design, etc), and of course gaming. The holodeck is the next step, then a neural interface to simulate memories without the need for a physical environment (ala holodeck, VR peripherals, etc).

> Will this be how we explore the web in the future? I for one hope so.

Perhaps; I have a similar vision on my AW page (http://tnlc.com/eep/aw/) but it's somewhat vague. I'm just interested in getting an easy-to-use, intuitive 3D "level editor" (worldbuilder, whatever) so I can create my own 3D gamelike environments with a LOT of interaction, realism, and immersiveness, without having to learn programming or deal with clunky, unintuitive, badly-programmed current level editors and 3D modellers.

> PS: I like the "new" eep, but how long will it last?

As long as it suites me; don't question it.

> I bet you are just dying to flame me, aren't you?

<twitch> Must...resist...temptation...to flame...<twitch>

Feb 11, 2001, 3:17am

hahahaha

>
>
> <twitch> Must...resist...temptation...to flame...<twitch>

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