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Matrix Phone
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Matrix Phone // Work in Progress
Post by Breech Block // Jan 14, 2009, 2:24am
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Breech Block
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Thanks for all the great feedback guys and you've raised some very interesting points.
I might just be really critical here...
No such thing as far as I'm concerned. :)
The shells look like pistol rounds, if maybe you put some bigger casings, like from machine guns or something, to add a bit of variety that could be beneficial...
Mmmm - I think from an image point of view you may well be right. That said, pistol casings were a very deliberate choice from a story point of view. Bigger casings = bigger weapon. That would indicate both hands would be needed to control it and thus the owner would be unable to operate the phone; as opposed to a pistol in one hand and mobile phone in the other. Arrgh...decisions, decisions. :D
I think I've got it..they kind of reflect the light differently,...
That's strange as I ensured all the scene lights were deleted so only the HDRI info could be used. I must have the casings shader/material settings wrong. In the future, I will conduct my test renders with different HDRI images to ensure the material is behaving as expected across a spectrum of conditions rather than just relying on my intended source. Thanks Weevil, well spotted. ;) |
Post by rjeff // Jan 14, 2009, 4:43am
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Breech you may want to add a gun or part of a gun in the scene. The shells seem out of place with just them and the phone. Even if you just hint at a gun. |
Post by Breech Block // Jan 16, 2009, 4:29am
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Breech Block
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Breech you may want to add a gun or part of a gun in the scene. The shells seem out of place with just them and the phone. Even if you just hint at a gun.
What! - It took me 6 months to model a mobile phone and now you want me to make a gun as well?
LOL - just kidding rjeff. :D
Yeah, you could be right. I might just give that a bash. My only concern is that I will have to both lower and tilt up the camera. That will effect how the HDRI image lights the scene and it took an absolute age of tinkering to get the striplight to half fall across the numeric pads. Still nothing ventured nothing gained. I will do a very rough mock-up and post it to see what the reaction is. Thanks for the input. |
Post by rjeff // Jan 16, 2009, 4:49am
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Well it does not even have to be the entire gun Breech. Just model the barrell or the grip. Just hint at the gun. Hey if anybody can I know you can. |
Post by kena // Jan 16, 2009, 6:02am
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Yes, if you put MOST of the gun out of the scene, it will actually work better because it will look like the world goes beyond the image. |
Post by Finis // Jan 16, 2009, 6:31am
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kena and rjeff have good points there about the gun. Also having just part of the gun the scene keeps the focus on the phone. The whole gun would take the viewers attention away from the phone. |
Post by Maldrachen // Jan 16, 2009, 4:28pm
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brilliant work Breech, as always your level of detail, texturing and materials are superb, only crit would be that the right hand shell casing appears to be lit from below making it appear as if its been pasted into the image. |
Post by Breech Block // Jan 16, 2009, 6:10pm
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Breech Block
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Thanks again for all the comments guys. And for the kind words Maldrachen. I have now added a gun to the scene, but as I feared, the adjustment in camera angle has thrown the light way off. What's even worse is that now, the shell cases look even more like they have just been pasted into the scene. Don't quite understand why its doing that, but while I beaver away at the problems, here is a much simpler answer to rjeff's suggestion. :D
Breech you may want to add a gun or part of a gun in the scene. The shells seem out of place with just them and the phone. Even if you just hint at a gun. |
Post by rjeff // Jan 16, 2009, 7:48pm
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dude that is too funny. |
Post by kena // Jan 16, 2009, 7:51pm
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HAHAHAHAHA.. a little humor goes a LOOOONG way these days! I like it! |
Post by robert // Jan 17, 2009, 5:37am
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:D That's hilarious Breech. HDR can be fickle though. Wish I knew how to help on this one. |
Post by turumdarak // Jan 17, 2009, 6:15am
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You might try just including hammer portion of the gun in the picture. |
Post by Breech Block // Jan 17, 2009, 4:04pm
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dude that is too funny.
HAHAHAHAHA.. a little humor goes a LOOOONG way these days! I like it!
That's hilarious Breech.
Glad I could give you guys something to smile at. :D
You might try just including hammer portion of the gun in the picture.
Thanks turumdarak, if I end up having to go back to my original camera settings I think I'll do that.
On the piccie front, I'm still trying to solve why the shell casings appear to be illuminated from below. I have changed the deck plates. They were just a textured plane, but where some of the cases had been placed to lie in the cracks, they protruded through a bit. So I swept the plane's so that they are now solid blocks. I also mucked about with the shell casings UV and material properties, but despite all the changes it still rendered the same way. So at least I have now identified that it is definitely being caused by the data in the HDRI image. Something in there is causing the light to come in at that angle.
Kerching - writing that has just given me an idea as to why that might be so. Be right back. |
Post by Breech Block // Jan 18, 2009, 4:00pm
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Well perhaps not straight back. :D
Problem solved now anyhow. For those not in the know, HDRI really ups the lighting ante when it comes to natural looking renders. But, IMO, what you gain in quality you loose in control; of shadows especially. The shadows in HDRI images tend to be really harsh although you can compensate for this by tweaking the number of samples. Having only about 4 or 5 tends to make your model look like it's been lit by a set of football floodlights in the fact you get multiple shadows. Take a look at Novembers winning image in the Caligallery to see a classic example (fantastic model by the way). Traditionally, I really ramp the sample setting up (over 50) and that has been the source of my shell casings appearing to be lit from underneath. So with that solved and a few more bits and bobs fine tuned, here are some test renders.
Image 1 - adds the gun and more shell cases and has the same light set up as before.
Image 2 - has the Light Intensity setting of the HDRI increased by 0.1.
Image 3 - has the weapons magazine reflective quality raised from 0.9 to 1.0.
Image 4 - is a post production 50% composite of the weapons magazine from image 1 & 3.
So, what I would ask of you is this: Does the gun add to the scene or does it encroach on the phone too much? Should the image be lighter/darker? Whilst admittedly the magazine in image 3 is far too glossy, it does help tie the light source of the gun and phone together. As you can see from my settings above, the reflectivity tends to be either on or off with no control bar post production composite. How glossy do you think the mag should be or, as I'm beginning to fear, do you think I should scrap trying to adapt the lighting from the original image and start completely afresh?
Please note that the changes in the images below may not be clearly apparant if your monitor is poorly calibrated. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 18, 2009, 4:31pm
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I like image #2 because the magazine is more realistic looking.
The things I might would consider:
.... Getting rid of the magazine (it's a little too much for the scene).
.... Showing just the trigger and the end of the barrel (tilting the barrel around a little more and design it more as a Glock or Beretta).
.... Getting rid of the top left bullet casing.
.... Lighten up the scene just a "tiny" bit more (would like to see the phone details a little better).
These are just my opinions, as you asked.
I think you've done a mighty fine job on it, as is, and well deserves recognition !!!:cool: |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 18, 2009, 5:17pm
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Well i can only tell you from my view as a photographer but my choice is #3
Its the lightest and is the only one that shows the ground!
I have a calibrated monitor with Spyder 3 elite.
From my experience with clients many people dont like to dark to much...:) |
Post by robert // Jan 18, 2009, 5:19pm
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The shell casings don't seem to be casting shadows on the ground, only on themselves which kind of disjoints them some.:(
As for the magazine, they have more of a composite material with almost no reflection, but something like the Vray glossy shader, see images below for more clarity.;)
I posted images of an Uzi and an MP40 as those looked like the kind of gun you were going for.:D
The first two images are real life shots so probably go by those. Sorry for their sizes but the forums here won't let me shrink and link them so I decided to just link them.:p
Also I wanted to get as much detail as I could find. If you search for weapons and look for extra large image sizes you can find some good stuff.
http://www.defensereview.com/stories/m16clinic/M16%20Clinic_Medic003.jpg
http://www.specialinterestarms.com/MP-40.JPG
http://www.keepshooting.com/productimages/firearmaccessories/magazines/rifles/m16magazinebig.jpghttp://www.keepshooting.com/productimages/firearmaccessories/magazines/rifles/taiwan-m16-30rd-magbig.jpghttp://files.uzitalk.com/reference/repairs/buildGI/23finish.jpg |
Post by Nez // Jan 18, 2009, 11:16pm
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Breech - this is looking great - I think the gun is quite a cool addition and does add some 'darkness' to the scene (although I liked the post-it version too!)
Like Rayman, I prefer the 3rd version from those above, but concur that the bullet casings somehow look superimposed now....
I know what you mean about HDR lighting, it can take some getting used to and can be quite a chore to get it to work 'predictably'.... depending on the image, I sometimes ramp the samples well up past 100.... but to get shadows working the way you want, you may need to add an extra light source (or several) and use the HDR more for ambient lighting; might be worth a try at least.... |
Post by Breech Block // Jan 19, 2009, 12:19am
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Breech Block
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Lol. I had just drafted my response when I suddenly noticed you'd come back and edited your post Mr. 3D. Thanks for that and for providing more detail. Oh well, I guess I'll start again. :p
Sometime later.
First of all, thanks for all the great feedback guys (and kind words) it is very much appreciated and you have certainly given me a lot to think about. I can see some tough decisions ahead.
@ Mr. 3D – Ref the design of the gun/mag, the model is a copy of the one used in the film during the assault on the lobby. My intention was to try and have the image populated with various Matrix references. However, your right in the fact that the mag does tend to lead your eyes away from the phone. I might just have to change it.
I note what you are saying about the top left shell casing and am curious to know if you'd preferred it to be removed in order to balance the scene or you think that particular casing doesn't render too well?
Yes, I think my dark and moody approach may be a bit too much. Again, another matrix reference, the deck plates representing the hover vehicles from the movies which were used to navigate subterranean tunnels – hence the low lighting.
@ Rayman – Thanks for the lend of your photographer's eye. I will definitely bring the lighting up to the image 3 levels and perhaps a tad more.
@ robert – ref the shadows of the shell casings, I initially thought it was because the light is directly above them. But now, I'm not so sure. I will investigate that area in more detail. Thanks for pointing that out.
Great pictures of weapon magazines and the images in the links were really good too. Thanks for digging them up and they have now all been copied to one of my reference folders. Unfortunately, it seems as if my original comment was lost in translation somewhere. When I asked how reflective should the mag be, I wasn't referring to the metallic surface, I was referring to the fact that in image 1, the phone is clearly lit by a light source directly above it, yet the weapon, despite being just a few inches away, doesn't seem to be. By making the mag more reflective, it tied the two objects together by indicating a common light source, but as I explained, this had to be faked due to the limits of the software. No doubt if I had Vray or knew more about specular mapping I might be able to pull off a better effect with the reference material you so kindly provided.
So thanks again all for your input fellas, I can see the mag being problematic no matter what I do. Will update with a new piccie tomorrow if I make some progress.
Doh, its happened again. :D
Sometime later.
Lol. Thanks for your input Nez and am glad its not just me who ramps up the sampling. I tried a spotlight or two on the right-hand side to try and light the chrome bars on the earpiece but it turned out a bit too obvious. Probably wanted more fiddling than I was prepared to make at the time. Yeah, that Post-it image is gonna end up as the final version if this bad lighting/shadows malarkey carries on.:D Of course I could do the easy thing and just read the manual/watch the training video, but having tried on several occasions I find it just sends me straight to sleep (sorry authors).:o
Ohh well, better post this quick before somebody else chips in. :D |
Post by Nez // Jan 19, 2009, 1:41am
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Heh, that 'cross-posting' can be a pain, can't it....
I didn't say before, but just wanted to add that you've done a really nice job on the gun, especially as a late addition, looks very nicely executed. Looks to be an H&K MP5, the little versions that the SAS really like (MP5K I think?)
If it wouldn't pain you too much, you could always try posting the scene file (or emailing it to me) and I could try taking a look at the lighting as we use similar set-ups (i.e. non-Vray!). That's not to say I could make it any better, but I could see if there's anything that leaps out at me... if you use the 'archive' mode on the model side menu it should include all the necesary textures too...
To go into your floor-plate/gun commentary further, I'd point out one minor technicality that occurs to me - the gun you mention (and the use of the phone, of course) - appear within the Matrix (i.e the 'non-reality') - whereas the deck-plate from the hovercraft is from the 'real-world' - where the phone wouldn't exist and the type of gun would be different (e.g. the 'lightning gun') - but maybe that's being overly pedantic! I do like the floor texture as a contrast to the phone/gun anyway.... |
Post by robert // Jan 19, 2009, 5:07am
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...the gun you mention (and the use of the phone, of course) - appear within the Matrix (i.e the 'non-reality') - whereas the deck-plate from the hovercraft is from the 'real-world' - where the phone wouldn't exist and the type of gun would be different (e.g. the 'lightning gun')...
Nez does bring up a good point, neither the phone or the gun are in the "real world" in which case it might be good to change the ground to something like concrete, or even that bank floor tile. I think it's a bank, either that or it's a post office, can't remember on account of the fact that it's been so long since I've watched the series. :p
...Looks to be an H&K MP5, the little versions that the SAS really like (MP5K I think?)...
Yeah I actually thought of that not too long after I posted my stuff and shut down my computer for the night. I'm surprised I didn't catch it right off as I've played Rainbow Six quite a bit. :D |
Post by Nez // Jan 19, 2009, 5:48am
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It's actually referred to usually as the 'government building'...
And the MP5K is one of several weapons Neo uses in that scene - if I remember rightly he starts off with something bigger - can't remember of it was a shotgun or M16 with underslung grenade launcher? Something like that I think... switches to a pair of MP5Ks at some point and later to a pair of automatic pistols, but there may be some other combinations in there too - it's been a long time since I watched it too!
Still, I like the phone on the deck-plate background, gives it a nice 'hard' look. Would probably be very cool to do a Dribble render using displacement on the deck-plate - could get some nice lighting going there but don't know what it's like for reflection and stuff - don't think I've seen anyone render 'shiny' stuff in Dribble as far as I remember....
One other suggestion to help the lighting/shadowing - you could try multi-pass rendering to combine effects from different lights... not something I've tried directly although I've used it in a simplistic way a couple of times to add volumetric lighting 'post-process'. There's a free course on the main Caligari site - I've not yet got round to watching it (but really must, along with that texturing one). |
Post by kena // Jan 19, 2009, 6:07am
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Just a small niggle.... One of the shell casings is facing away? it looks rounded and has no marking to show that it's a spent round. Not sure how to model it. It's the one that's in the crack... Maybe turn it around? |
Post by Finis // Jan 19, 2009, 6:13am
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This has been an awesome image for the last million posts.
I like number 4.
The brightness is fine on my monitor. Since Rayman's monitor is calibrated, mine must be way too bright because I see the floor clearly. Yet it is dark enough to have the Matrix feel. That's a problem with computer graphics. You never know what it will look like on the viewer's monitor.
I can see the primer's dent on the casing Kena mentioned but the casing is very round looking.
I had good luck with mapped shadows in HDRI for soft light with few samples plus an infinite light for shadows.
The casings are floating due to soft shadows and the one nearest the phone is bright enough to distract from the phone.
Attention goes to the phone with the gun slightly less glossy/reflective than the phone.
Lines from the magazine, front grip, and ... uh ... forward part of the frame, converge on the phone. See image. That can draw the eye toward or away from an object. The effect is dependent on the viewer and an artist must use additional methods to set the direction of that flow. Here the gun only partially in the image, less glossy/reflective, and phone in foreground, set the direction as toward the phone.
Also about the lines, or visual alignment of elements: Viewer's minds will connect things by lines and curves if they are close to such an arrangement. Note how the lines I drew on the image connect gun parts to the edges of the reflection on the phone. When elements visually align like this it ties the objects conceptually together. Misalignment separates them. So, here the alignment says that the gun and the phone belong to the same person. Misalignment would say they belong to different people. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 19, 2009, 6:41am
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posts.
...... I see the floor clearly. Yet it is dark enough to have the Matrix feel. .
Clearly is overexagerated Finis! I happen to just see it if I realy try on picture #4 and I dont see the floor in the back. In print you wouldnt see it at all.
But it boils down to personal preference....
Heres the link to Matrix Finis.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1566546176/tt0242653
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0234215/mediaindex?page=3
Although they give you the feeling that its dark most of the pics are´nt. |
Post by Breech Block // Jan 19, 2009, 8:54am
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Flippin' heck lads, it'll take me to next Crimbo to reply to this lot. Right lets crack on – and no interruptions this time round. :D
Well, the good news is, I decided to do one more test render last night/this morning before packing up and I stumbled upon the extra menu that allows you to switch between ray and mapped shadows. (Note to self – in future, RTFM) Wow, what a huge difference that makes. One click - problem solved. The thought of getting any sleep quickly disappeared as test renders flew off the page (so to speak) and I set about optimising the Light Intensity and Sample settings. Now we are cooking on gas (See new renders below).
To try and answer some points.
I could try taking a look at the lighting as we use similar set-ups....
I really appreciate the offer Nez, but I think I have it sussed now. Thanks anyway. :)
...I'd point out one minor technicality that occurs to me - the gun you mention (and the use of the phone, of course) - appear within the Matrix (i.e the 'non-reality') - whereas the deck-plate from the hovercraft is from the 'real-world' - where the phone wouldn't exist and the type of gun would be different (e.g. the 'lightning gun') - but maybe that's being overly pedantic!...
Lol, and there was me thinking nah, nobody but me will know the difference. :o
Still, at least no one has noticed that the MP5 is from the first film, yet the phone is from the second. Oopps. :D
Nez does bring up a good point, neither the phone or the gun are in the "real world"....
Yeah, robert. I can just imagine the pm's between you and Nez. "Hey Nez, Breech is obviously not suffering enough for his art. His 2 hour SMC project has only taken him 6 months so far and he still hasn't got his textures\lighting\shadows\composition sorted yet. I know, lets hit him with the fact his virtual creation of a virtual creation shouldn't really exist. That'll sort him." :D:D:D
I'm surprised I didn't catch it right off as I've played Rainbow Six quite a bit...
Ahh, robert, your a man of great taste I see. I still have Raven Shield on my hardrive and, rather surprisingly, it works well with Vista 64 no less.
Just a small niggle.... One of the shell casings is facing away? it looks rounded and has no marking to show that it's a spent round. Not sure how to model it. It's the one that's in the crack... Maybe turn it around?
Sorry Kena, I'm not sure I understand. All the shell casings are copies of the same model and each (should) have an indentation modelled into the rear where the firing pin has made contact with the percussion cap. I will make a double check though as it is very important to me to get this kind of detail right.
This has been an awesome image for the last million posts.
Thanks very much Finis. Sorry, misread it first time around and thought you said awful.:D Now, if I could only get one of them right.:p
Here the gun only partially in the image, less glossy/reflective, and phone in foreground, set the direction as toward the phone.
Wow! You really know your stuff. Thanks a bundle for taking the time to write out all that info I found it very useful. I was in 2 minds whether or not to change the weapon due to the size of the mag, but at the same time was desperate to keep it because of the link it has with the movie. I can now proceed with confidence that it is not detrimental to the scene and focus my attention elsewhere. Thanks again.
I like image #2...
...my choice is #3
I prefer the 3rd version .
I like number 4.
Ahh, that's what I like about this forum, the consistency. That's right, you all hated No 1. :D
Phew, that's me about done. Thanks again to each and everyone of you for taking the time to both view and pass comment on this thread. I know it is getting a bit old hat now but I'm learning loads and I really appreciate your efforts. Incidentally, the LightWorks image contest posted their results today and I just got an honourable mention. But, when I looked again at the image I sent in, TBH I thought it was pretty poor. When you look at the images below, I just can't believe how much the quality has progressed in the last week or so. And all as a direct result of the fantastic support and feedback this thread has received. So thanks again all.
Note
Crikey. These renderings look fantastic on my monitor, great colour, wonderful reflections. Reduce them in size and they just go all dark so I have upped the gamma by 10% so they are a bit more like the actual renders. There still a WIP and there are a few tweaks to go yet. |
Post by kena // Jan 19, 2009, 12:19pm
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...
Sorry Kena, I'm not sure I understand. All the shell casings are copies of the same model and each (should) have an indentation modelled into the rear where the firing pin has made contact with the percussion cap. I will make a double check though as it is very important to me to get this kind of detail right.
...
Sorry... on closer examination, I can see the impact. However the back still looks too rounded over for me. I'm not an expert, so it could be "supposed to be like that"
17733 |
Post by robert // Jan 19, 2009, 12:30pm
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Nice work, the first is best looking in my opinion since in the second and third ones the color got a little messed up where it was supposed to be straight black.
Don't know if you can see it but it looks like the color palette is missing a few shades and so the top part of the phone and parts of the gun are a bit screwy. |
Post by Nez // Jan 20, 2009, 1:52am
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I agree - I like the first best - the colours on the second look like they may be suffering some artifacts or suffering from jpg compression perhaps? The third, whilst I like seeing the extra detail, perhaps draws your eyes back out again? Looking back at Finis' (excellent) analysis, I would imagine the extra axis of the gun barrel is more evident and perhaps leads you out of the picture....
Anyway, I agree with one of your other comments, it seems you have it sussed now, looks so much better now - the mapped shadows (or whatever else you've done) have really done the trick it would seem.
Yeah, robert. I can just imagine the pm's between you and Nez. "Hey Nez, Breech is obviously not suffering enough for his art. His 2 hour SMC project has only taken him 6 months so far and he still hasn't got his textures\lighting\shadows\composition sorted yet. I know, lets hit him with the fact his virtual creation of a virtual creation shouldn't really exist. That'll sort him." :D:D:D
heh, there was no conspiracy, I promise! It only just occurred to me then, so I wasn't exactly quick off the mark... but it means the reflection of the sentinel in the phone (in one of your earlier versions) would definitely be wrong... ;)
Awesome job Breech - glad you've stuck with this as it really shows what perserverence can bring... |
Post by Breech Block // Jan 21, 2009, 7:31am
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Breech Block
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Thanks again for all the kind words and feedback guys. I think we are really starting to get somewhere now. :)
...the back still looks too rounded over for me.
Yes, your quite right kena is does look slightly rounded. It may be just a trick of the light or it could be that the auto-facet is having a hard job coping with the complicated structure of the model. I will go in on that one and hand paint the base with a faceted texture. Thanks; and well spotted. :)
Don't know if you can see it but it looks like the color palette is missing a few shades and so the top part of the phone and parts of the gun are a bit screwy.
Yeah, the mag texture is quite a complicated multilayered texture and the light coming from the HDRI map completely changes about half way up its length. It looks fine at 1920 x 1200 because you can clearly see that. But at 800 x 464 and compressed to boot, your right it does look a bit of a mess. If I stick with the current lighting scheme, perhaps a different texture on the mag would go a long way to resolve that. With regards the top part of the phone, I think it is due to the way the earpiece/reciever angles downward and catches the light in a completely different manner. It may be accurate, but I'm not fond of it myself and may end up correcting it in post.
heh, there was no conspiracy, I promise!
Lol. Didn't suspect it for a minute, but I couldn't resist pulling yours and robert's leg and adding a dash of humour to what was becoming a very long and somewhat dry post. :D
...but it means the reflection of the sentinel in the phone (in one of your earlier versions) would definitely be wrong.
Haha, and I'd thought I'd gotten away with it. Still, all the elements could be there because they are all part of a training simulation. Get out of that one! :D |
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