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Jul 3, 1998, 4:47am

You'll find that suggestion in my "Bring object with" reply to the base-note
of this thread. (April 25 of 1998)

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Jul 3, 1998, 4:55am

It's all in how you move the objects. Since the object movement is effected
by rotation around the Y axis, I can line up two objects "perfectly" with
any angle between them that AW can produce. One solution would be to keep
up and down movements as up and down to that object. Actually, I think
that would be the easiest way to program it anyway, but it may be confusing
as hell for some newbie to grab an object and try to lift it up only to find
it goes down on some odd angle instead. A good workaround for that would be
to include a button to snap the object back to right side up. The mere
existance of such a button should give most people a clue as to why up is
not up and down is not down when they grab a vertically rotated object.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Jul 3, 1998, 6:25am

If you're interested, I just set up an example of every angle possible in
Active Worlds.
You can find it in Beta world at 88n 88e made of a bunch of pp31.rwx
objects.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Jul 3, 1998, 4:40pm

OK, I see what you're saying here- you're using the overlap to cover up the
inherent cracks. Which works fine for 45° angles where you can overlap even
after snapping to the cm grid. But i'd sure like to see you do that with 15
30° 60° and 75°! It just isn't gonna happen :-(


______________
-------------------------------------
from the top-down it looks like this in the *best* case at these angles.
The cracks wouldn't be as apparent, but they'd still be there.
on a 4m wall, the distance seperating them would be:

with overlap:
15°,75°: 3.5cm lateral separation (along the world's x or z asix), 3.4cm at the
closest
30°,60°: 3.2cm lateral separation, 1.6cm at the closest

sure, it's only 1/2 of a shift-click, but it's still noticable, plain as day
unless you overlap to the extreme! And when that happens, UVs don't line up
correctly. rotating in 3 dimensions would onle accentuate this problem and
proper alignment would become nearly impossible.

grover

[View Quote] > If you're interested, I just set up an example of every angle possible in
> Active Worlds.
> You can find it in Beta world at 88n 88e made of a bunch of pp31.rwx
> objects.
>
> TechnoZeus
>
[View Quote]

--
_______________________________________________________________
http://www.grovers.com/ ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-.__
steve at synergycorp.com `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ). `-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
Custom Objects and Avatars! _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
___________________________(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'__________

Jul 3, 1998, 5:03pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I looked at your beta world site- that's not what I meant exatly (I was picturing
the walls lined up in a row.) But nevertheless, whats the first think I saw? thats
right! cracks. a screen shot of the first corner in front of that teleport is
attached. And this isn't just a rendering problem- these cracks will nearly
*always* show up if a building isn't lined up with the y/z axis, for the reasons
I've stated. This is a good example of the people getting something they demanded
even though they didn't really understand the consequences of the demand.

btw, The display font text changed between composition and posting- the Ascii art
was meant to appear as below. I was also hasty on the numbers, forgot to flip them
to the other side as well. this is corrected:

[View Quote] > OK, I see what you're saying here- you're using the overlap to cover up the
> inherent cracks. Which works fine for 45° angles where you can overlap even
> after snapping to the cm grid. But i'd sure like to see you do that with 15
> 30° 60° and 75°! It just isn't gonna happen :-(
>
> ___________________________
> -------------------------------------
> from the top-down it looks like this in the *best* case at these angles.
> The cracks wouldn't be as apparent, but they'd still be there.
> on a 4m wall, the distance seperating them would be:
>
> with overlap:
> 15°,75°: 1.5cm lateral separation (along the world's x or z asix), 1.4cm at the
> closest
> 30°,60°: 1.8cm lateral separation, 0.8cm at the closest
>
> sure, it's only 1/2 of a shift-click, but it's still noticable, plain as day
> unless you overlap to the extreme! And when that happens, UVs don't line up
> correctly. rotating in 3 dimensions would onle accentuate this problem and
> proper alignment would become nearly impossible.
>
> grover
>
[View Quote]

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EINMhCEAhCEAhCEAhCEAhCEAhCEAhCEAhCEH/9k=
--------------9CFB20430C2BCA7A2C4A5D47--

Jul 4, 1998, 1:38am

Actually, I would never use overlap to cover the cracks. The objects I set
up in my example are geometricly correct, and therefore "should not" have
any gaps between them. I have seen the same "cracks" between objects that
had not been rotated from each other at all. Perhaps you can tell me what
causes this and how you calculated the exact (or approximate) size of the
cracks. I'm interested to know. I've always just figured this was a
RenderWare display glitch and the the cracks would go away when they fix it.
Was I wrong?

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Jul 4, 1998, 12:23pm

Only half-wrong ;-) It's geometrically incorrect because of an AW-cache
compromise. That is to say, the AW cache is incapable of saving geometically
correct values, which causes a lot of these cracks. One more thing to be added
to "The List®" Other cracks (notably the 1-pixel wide ones that appear and
dissapear as you move) *are* cause by RenderWare glitches tho.

[View Quote] > Actually, I would never use overlap to cover the cracks. The objects I set
> up in my example are geometricly correct, and therefore "should not" have
> any gaps between them. I have seen the same "cracks" between objects that
> had not been rotated from each other at all. Perhaps you can tell me what
> causes this and how you calculated the exact (or approximate) size of the
> cracks. I'm interested to know. I've always just figured this was a
> RenderWare display glitch and the the cracks would go away when they fix it.
> Was I wrong?
>
> TechnoZeus
>
[View Quote]

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_______________________________________________________________
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Jul 4, 1998, 12:46pm

Oh, forgot the calculation part, hehe. We know (from the beta group I think?) that
the AW cache saves position data in 5cm increments. This was chosen early on and
would be very difficult to change, so, for the foreseeable future, we're stuck with
it.
The values I calculated were the geometric dimensions of a rotate 4m long
object, with respect to the 5x5cm grid that has to mark the position. If I rotate
a 4m wide wall 15° it will now be 3.8637m of x-width and 1.0352m of z-width with
respect to this grid. The center of this object will always be centered on an even
5cm grid point, which leaves the ends (2m away from the center) at 1.93m and .5176m
respectively. Which, as you can see, are 2cm and 1.76cm from 5cm grid points.
This is doubled when you consider two panels are needed, and you can work out the
closest possible distance from there. Which means, even at the best odds, you will
still have a 1cm-x crack or a 1.48cm-z crack for this case.

grover

[View Quote] > Only half-wrong ;-) It's geometrically incorrect because of an AW-cache
> compromise. That is to say, the AW cache is incapable of saving geometically
> correct values, which causes a lot of these cracks. One more thing to be added
> to "The List®" Other cracks (notably the 1-pixel wide ones that appear and
> dissapear as you move) *are* cause by RenderWare glitches tho.
>
[View Quote]

--
_______________________________________________________________
http://www.grovers.com/ ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-.__
steve at synergycorp.com `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ). `-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
Custom Objects and Avatars! _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
___________________________(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'__________

Jul 4, 1998, 9:41pm

After rotating/moving/copying an object, it is possible to get it to a point
that is you placed it back side by side to the original object that you
copied it from that it will no longer meet exactly at the edges. This has
pissed me off quite a few times and I've ended up deleting it and making a
new copy from the original object to fix the problem. It's the
shift-movements/rotations that gets it out of alignment (when you try to
match it up to the original object).
Myself, I would like to have x/y/z rotation of objects just for animation
purposes. This would have no affect on registry or anything else for this
reason (if so designed):
The object would be placed in the world just and any other object is and
would remain so as far as the registry and world database is concerned. The
"new" animate Rotate command would cause the object to rotate based on
supplied parameters on your computer (and not in the world database). And
if you decided to right-click on the object to select it, what you would get
is the original object position bounding box as it is in the cache/world
database as it was originally placed. So, it's just a rotation in memory
(like in RWXMod in spin mode or manually rotating the object). I don't see
why this would be so hard to implement and would, I think, allow for
smoother, more reliable, lower resource overhead, that have 3, 6, 12, or
however many duplicated objects, each rotated and made visible/invisible in
sequence via the current animation scheme.

Paul

[View Quote]

Jul 5, 1998, 8:01am

This doesn't look quite right. If all of the vertices were being snapped to
a 5cm grid, then there would either be no crack at all, or a crack that is a
multiple of 5 centimeters.

What I had figured might be happening is that RenderWare may be using
somewhat rounded off figures for sine and cosine values. This is actually a
standard practice for 3D rendering because sine and cosine calculations tend
to be time consuming without the aid of a floating point coprocessor. For
example, if the cosine of 15° is stored in a table for quick usage as 0.96
and applied to a 10 meter length to calculate the resulting X dimension
rather than carrying it out to the slightly more accurate value of 0.965925,
the results will have a difference of 9.25 millimeters.

As far as I can tell, there is no reason to store information about the
positions of the objects edges since that information can (and I think,
should) be derived from the information stored in the object, the location
of the object's origin, and and any scaling, rotation, or transforms applied
to the object. Since scaling and transforms are not presently supported
from within Active Worlds, that leaves only rotation, and since that
rotation is in only a single plane, a single number should be enough to
accurately "store" the information. Therefore it would seam to me that the
problem must be only in the rendering. Again, please tell me if you feel I
am mistaken about this, and if so please explain why. I wish to understand
this as well as I possibly can.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Jul 5, 1998, 10:57am

no- not all values are being rounded off to 5cm, only the position of the
object. The object's individual vertices can be any value it wants to be
(probably single precision?). Which means, even though the object itself is
always at an even 5cm, the edges of the object aren't. They might be 2.11m
long. Which would make it impossible to line up two objects like this since,
placed end-to-end would both be 4cm (or 1cm, if overlapped) from the even 5cm
grid.
You see, with an object rotated by a small degree, the center would have to
be placed at a geometrically accurate position in order to prevent cracks. This
might need to be, lets say, 5.43219m from the y-axis. But AW can't position it
there. It instead places the object at 5.45m from the y-axis, creating a 1.8cm
crack.
Don't make me post a picture ;-)

grover

[View Quote] > This doesn't look quite right. If all of the vertices were being snapped to
> a 5cm grid, then there would either be no crack at all, or a crack that is a
> multiple of 5 centimeters.
>
> What I had figured might be happening is that RenderWare may be using
> somewhat rounded off figures for sine and cosine values. This is actually a
> standard practice for 3D rendering because sine and cosine calculations tend
> to be time consuming without the aid of a floating point coprocessor. For
> example, if the cosine of 15° is stored in a table for quick usage as 0.96
> and applied to a 10 meter length to calculate the resulting X dimension
> rather than carrying it out to the slightly more accurate value of 0.965925,
> the results will have a difference of 9.25 millimeters.
>
> As far as I can tell, there is no reason to store information about the
> positions of the objects edges since that information can (and I think,
> should) be derived from the information stored in the object, the location
> of the object's origin, and and any scaling, rotation, or transforms applied
> to the object. Since scaling and transforms are not presently supported
> from within Active Worlds, that leaves only rotation, and since that
> rotation is in only a single plane, a single number should be enough to
> accurately "store" the information. Therefore it would seam to me that the
> problem must be only in the rendering. Again, please tell me if you feel I
> am mistaken about this, and if so please explain why. I wish to understand
> this as well as I possibly can.
>
> TechnoZeus
>
[View Quote]

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_______________________________________________________________
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steve at synergycorp.com `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ). `-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
Custom Objects and Avatars! _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
___________________________(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'__________

Jul 6, 1998, 8:55am

Okay. I understood you that time. Thanks for your patience... I'm really
not usually that slow. :·)

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Jul 6, 1998, 7:58pm

hehe... don't feel stupid- i've been using aw for almost exactly 3 years and
only figured this out a few months ago! :)

grover

[View Quote] > Okay. I understood you that time. Thanks for your patience... I'm really
> not usually that slow. :·)
>
> TechnoZeus
>
[View Quote]

--
_______________________________________________________________
http://www.grovers.com/ ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-.__
steve at synergycorp.com `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ). `-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
Custom Objects and Avatars! _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
___________________________(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'__________

Jul 9, 1998, 12:54am

Thanks.

Well, perhaps when they change the format to allow for vertical rotation,
they could also add a few more bits for storing the object's location.

Curious thought... It seems to me that I've never seen overlap caused in
that way. I wonder why.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Jul 9, 1998, 8:06pm

perhaps....

well, for the most case, the cracks are really small. A sliver of bright blue
or green is going to catch your eye, but a little fuzziness where UV's are
fighting over who gets the z-buffering trophy is gonna just get lost ;-)

grover

[View Quote] > Thanks.
>
> Well, perhaps when they change the format to allow for vertical rotation,
> they could also add a few more bits for storing the object's location.
>
> Curious thought... It seems to me that I've never seen overlap caused in
> that way. I wonder why.
>
> TechnoZeus
>
[View Quote]

--
_______________________________________________________________
http://www.grovers.com/ ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-.__
steve at synergycorp.com `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ). `-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
Custom Objects and Avatars! _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
___________________________(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'__________

Jul 13, 1998, 11:14am

Just some notes on gaps and circles. To see some spirals with little-to-no gaps, visit my AlphaWorld site at:

http://www.worlds.net/cgi-bin/teleport?aw_1185.5s_1229.3e_210

Then go to the Exhibits section and look at the Ribbon and DNA Strand/Double-Helix structures. That's as gapless as I could get with AW.

A better solution would to just make the [Shift] movements every 1cm. Even better (although probably unnerving) would be every 50mm, 10mm, or 1mm, but maybe that could be a special case...like with the [Scroll Lock] on or something.

Gaps in objects (like the AlphaWorld glass and panel objects with frames) are because of RenderWare not treating the edges of the frame and panel polygons the same. My first structure was the glass pyramid at the above coordinates and I remember spending DAYS trying to get rid of those damn gaps, but I never could. I started out doing the pyramid with all the standard movements (no [Shift] movements), but then the gaps appeared. I also see this gap effect in Tomb Raider II, so it must be an artifact of 3D engines or something. Hopefully programmers will figure it out soon cuz it sure looks like crap.

On another note, I'd like finer avatar collision detection. Right now, according to Roland, all avatars use a 1m x 1m 2D square (probably a sprite) centered around the avatar's "torso" clump. I think avatars should at LEAST use their outermost bounding box for collision detection. My rat avatar in Utah can't go in between the horizontal and diagonal I-beams. :( And walking near things like the chainlink fence and other things triggers the sounds, even though from 3rd person view the avatar hasn't even visibally bumped into them.

Another thing I'd like (and asked Roland about months ago) would be to be able to click ANYWHERE to deselect an object, not just on the infinite ground object, background/backdrop, sky, or the object itself. It's VERY annoying when in a cluttered area or a world which uses a modular ground.

Jul 22, 1998, 2:02am

Some very good input, and I'm not ignoring it, by any means, but I thought I
should point out that if you are annoyed by trouble deselecting whatever you
have selected, it may be good to try closing the object properties dialog
box.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

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