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May 17, 2001, 7:19am

Is there any chance we could have a new newsgroup on news.activeworlds.com
for C++, VB, Delphi and Java questions related to the SDK?

I appreciate that there is a need for people who have started using these
languages purely for bot development with no other experience to speak of in
programming them to have a place to ask questions about the language and the
best way to do things, so I am not saying these people aren't welcome (in my
view anyway) to ask for the information they need.

The thing is, this SDK newsgroup is now getting littered with questions
about how to do things in VB ... and less and less to do with the SDK
itself. I know there are people with relevant skills that would monitor the
new NG, and it would help to keep on-topic stuff at the forefront in this
one.

Any comments (or ideas whether AW would set one up)?

Grims

May 17, 2001, 7:21am

Oops ... sorry.

"related to the SDK" meant to say "not directly related to the SDK".

Grims


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May 17, 2001, 8:11am

Excellent suggestion but I doubt it will happen. My guess is AWCI answer would be "why should such questions be asked in AWCI NGs while there are numerous NGs just for that (alt, alt.comp, microsoft.public to name a few)?". These are not NGs for someone to learn a programming language, it is a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up. I miss the times when real programmers used to post here, won't mention names, just check out the posts before 1999, take a look how many of them are still around. Personally I used to lurk here (and mostly still do) because I felt there are ppl with a lot more programming knowledge and SDK understanding to deal with any question. Now these ppl are the ones who lurk or have left the NGs for good, disappointed by the invasion of wannabees who think they are programmers just because their exe compiles and doesn't explode in their face.

IMO such an NG would be usefull. Keeping with the community spirit I don't have a prob with anyone asking for a programming advice here either. For the arrogant and ignorant...filters work.

Baron


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May 17, 2001, 1:16pm

I'd gladly start a new NG (and tree) on the Tavido 3D newsserver
news://kahnews.cjb.net ) :-))

KAH
PS. just for the moment, we're having DNS trouble...

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May 17, 2001, 4:24pm

"grimble" <grimble2000 at btinternet.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3b0397ba at server1.Activeworlds.com...
> Is there any chance we could have a new newsgroup on news.activeworlds.com
> for C++, VB, Delphi and Java questions [not] related to the SDK?

I second this idea. It would keep some fights over correct basic programming and i'll-help-but-i-have-no-clue helpers out of sight.

Faber

May 17, 2001, 6:03pm

I fully agree, although I hate newbies who never open a book, or read help
files, I think this is a great idea.

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May 17, 2001, 9:05pm

LOL .... nicely put.

[View Quote] It would keep some fights over correct basic programming and
i'll-help-but-i-have-no-clue helpers out of sight.

May 17, 2001, 9:12pm

Apart from the basic concept of keeping the basic VB questions out of the
SDK newsgroup (although they are perfectly valid questions ... and will be
welcome there), one of the key ideas behind this is so that people like you
who think that way don't have to read the posts and not even subscribe to
the newsgroup.

In that way we can keep the threads in the SDK focussed on SDK issues and
still help the people trying to learn the languages in question in a
separate forum. I take it from your comments that you won't subscribe to the
newsgroup if it ever materialised, which is your choice. Whatever happens,
we'll have to make sure there's a firm charter behind it ... that is stuck
to.

Grims

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May 18, 2001, 1:35am

I personally think that the fact there are 2 newgroups for bots and sdk is
more than enough. It is already quite confusing for people to know where to
post questions. The sdk newsgroup is the appropriate one to post questions,
in my opinion, about vb, c--, delphi or clum. As long as it is vaguely sdk
related, welcome. The sdk newsgroup, as such, would be dead and gone
without all the weird questions about weird systems :) There is even a
third possibility, for the lucky few, to post in the beta newsgroup.....
People with 'high technical nowledge' can post here, or make their own
elitair newsgroup if they want to.

When I started making bots, I started with VB. My first xelagot was a VB
creep. I was made fun of in this same newsgroup, and not taken seriously by
professional C++ programmers, but also helped by many of them... And
especially by Canopus, a Delphi programmer. But also by C++, often amidst
derision and unbelief that anything other than C++ could do the job... I did
not belong here. I moved away from VB because of it's shortcomings, and was
denigrated because I used Delphi instead of C++. Only when my xelagot won
the Cy award from C++ programmers, did I start getting recognition. After
al, C++ programmers are also human... :)

I think the time has come for experienced programmers (especially C/C++ers)
to accept newbie programmers. I had to fight my way, with the help of other
people in this newsgroup (that was what *really* helped me, not the sdk
label attached to the newsgroup). We do not need another technical
newsgroup: this one is more than enough. When I can help someone here, I
will. I do not know everything, the one who does just throw the first stone
please. Maybe, the more experienced but elitair C++ers should publish here
more often.

Please note: I have nothing against C++. In fact, when people ask me what
their best choice would be, I recommend C++, for the simple reason that it
is more portable. I program in Delphi myself, and I am very pleased with
it. I just hate the attitude many exclusive C/C++ programmers have against
others. This is the heritage I have got here... wounds heal slowly :)

So, to keep it long enough: no need for another newsgroup, throw your
troubles here, like I did!

XelaG

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May 18, 2001, 7:49am

Wow ... Some response.

I don't remember seeing anyone derided in this newsgroup for using VB (or
any non-C++ language). I have about 4 PC development languages at my
disposal, with experience ranging from months to years. I used to used VB
for bots ... right up to the point it came time to send it to someone(Ack!
4.5MB's worth of cabs!). The post had nothing to do with elitism ... it is a
matter of of focus, not segregation ... to the benefit of all.

I am happy to help people where I can on any subject where I have experience
and feel have value to add to the subject. However I don't believe that
questions about handling visual controls and data stores etc. BELONG in the
sdk newsgroup. It clutters it up making things very difficult to locate
later for both people who want to find something regarding the SDK and those
looking for general programming answers. The result ... they repost the
question.

Recently, the SDK newsgroup (and to a ceetain extent this applies to the
Bots newsgroup too) seems be becoming a "general programming" forum where
the subjects are *very* loosely related to the SDK because people are
writing bots when they have the question. In my view ... these questions
would be best suited to a separate newsgroup.

I agree that it takes time for people to realise which newsgroup should be
posted to when it comes to certain types of question ... and, unfortunately,
true success could only be achieved with someone permanently mediating the
newsgroups, managing the posts (which we don't have here). But I feel that
the benefit of all would be served better by separating the general
programming questions from those related directly to the use of the SDK.

Grims


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May 18, 2001, 11:12am

just activated 4 new NGs on news://kahnews.cjb.net :
prog.CandCpp -NG for C and C++ stuff
prog.Delphi -NG for Delphi stuff
prog.Java -NG for Java stuff
prog.VB -NG for Visual Basic stuff

KAH
PS. the DNS problems have been solved now :-))

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May 18, 2001, 12:36pm

True, the mentality has changed a bit in the last couple of years. When at
first only C/C++ ruled, it was difficult for other programmers to be taken
seriously. Then the Delphi wrapper, appeared at the end of 1998 (thanks to
Canopus), and many of the bugs I reported were dismissed as being 'Delphi'
bugs. Most of them were recognised in the end for what they were. I also
asked very stupid questions, in the eyes of experts: for me they were not
stupid, I was learning and needed the feedback. Next came the VB wrapper
(there was also a Java wrapper, not sure if or how it works). I do notice
still people bashing each other for 'newbie' etc here, I think that's not
quite ok. There is a predominance of VB programmers, many are young and
have many questions about programming. I personally think this is great,
this newsgroup would be long dead without them -- it was dying anyway after
a year or so, with only 'experts' chatting here once every 3 months. This
indicates a re-birth of bot making and of using the SDK. It enhances the
social function of ActiveWorlds, I would not like to see a come-back of the
'experts only' time. I may have expressed myself a bit too vehemently in my
last post, but there is a reason for that: the situation now may seem
chaotic at times, but that means there is growth. It allows two crowds to
mix, the experts and the less experts. People, when learning anything, need
this mix: if newgroups were separate, you would get the 'first class
programmers' ng and the 'mob' ng, less experts would feel intimidated to
post outside their appointed 'mob' group. The volume of 'expert' exchange
here, anyway, does not justify splitting newsgroups, in my opinion, you can
very easily select what you want to read here, and let others benefit.

To give you an opposite example: AW decided to close the beta newsgroup. I
approve of that, I don't consider that elitair, why? Because the purpose of
that newsgroup is to help Roland and his team to find and fix bugs, and not
to promote a general discussion on the beta. Their decision to close the
newsgroup produced a much more effective and clean beta period.

This newsgroup is different, in my view: people should be free to post and
discuss matters, even if they seem at times little related to the SDK (I
still have to find such off-topic questions here, most of what I see is
directly relating to using the SDK). Younger or inexperienced programmers
should in no may feel intimidated to post their problems here, even if it is
about simple VB questions.

BTW, I don't think you meant badly, but I have my very outspoken opinion
about this :) I was here from day 1 of the SDK, and a lot this ng's history
passed under my bridge LOL.

My 2 cents :)

XelaG

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