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Slug Alien WIP
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Slug Alien WIP // Work in Progress
Post by TomG // Jan 13, 2009, 2:22am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hard to say what is going on here, it could be a driver issue for the new tech in the new cards. I can load Marcel's spaceship, over 280K faces. I can Point Edit one part of that hierarchy, at 28K vertices. I could add edge loops if I wanted.
This is on a pretty poorly performing Quadro card, I think just 256Mb memory if I remember. The frame rate is pretty abysmal (the card is about equivalent to a 6600 or something!) but no crashes or oddities. (It's a pretty amazing model btw! Fun to use it to test the system since it has so much detail)
So its not as straightforward as tS not handling this, there is something in terms of hardware and / or drivers involved too, or it could be something to do with how the geometry is constructed.
Will do some tests with the scene itself in just a bit, since I did get it downloaded yesterday.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 13, 2009, 3:30am
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Thanx Tom. Any input is GREATLY appreciated.
There does seem to be some 'choke point'. I 'feel' like it is not the model (though the topology IS messy. That's what I was trying to optimize when this all started and shut me down), since some have no problems playing around with it. So that leaves two areas for interrogation: compatibility between OS and tS, or, tS. Nothing else has made this puter crash, and believe me, I have tested it :).
I really think that the hardware I've put together on this computer (see signature) should be able to handle tS no problem. Shouldn't it? What's your opinion? I mean, the CPU usage hasn't ever gone more than about 60%, even during the crashing, and the RAM has never budged past 26%.
Thanx for the compliment. Wish I could share the movie model. You'd really like that one :)
Well, I figure it this way. If I could get some real hands on help with this ( Optimizing my Vista [another Microsoft product btw] ;) ) and tS compatibility, and continue in tS, Caligari will have a movie clip to show off :)
Heck, my 'Dragncave' short film would do the trick also. If I can just get to the next stage after modeling.
Oh, and just as a passing thought (wink wink); if tS moved to a 64 bit architecture, wouldn't the increased 'pipe diameter' help alleviate part of the crashes? I don't know much about the technical aspects, but logically, when we do an operation and the program has to instantly do a ton of calculations, wouldn't a larger pipe be more effective than a smaller pipe? |
Post by Finis // Jan 13, 2009, 6:01am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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So its not as straightforward as tS not handling this, there is something in terms of hardware and / or drivers involved too, or it could be something to do with how the geometry is constructed.
It is as straight forward as TS doesn't handle something that it should or needs to behave better when limits are reached.
Maybe there is a problem with the slug's geometry. But explain this ...
On model side I made a simple cube and used quad divide until it had 32770 verts and 98304 polys. I went to workspace and right clicked on the cube. The pink screen below was the result. The other picture is the cube before. How did the slug's geometry cause this when there is no slug in the scene -- only the cube? I hope TS can quad divide a cube without producing bad geometry. This is a TS problem or limitation.
If there is a limit to the number of polys or verts TS can handle fine, but it should be known, revealed, and produce warnings rather that crash or act strangely.
If TS requires use of only a few video card/driver combinations then:
- Don't blame the cards or drivers for TS's incompatibility with many of them. Of course it can't use them all but TS has trouble with many.
- Why are so many other programs that need the cards so much more flexible than TS?
- Doesn't Microsoft produce or own a bunch of those programs? Why doesn't Caligari find out how they do it multi-card compatibility?
- People won't use it if it doesn't work with their systems.
- People won't try it if they have heard of these problems.
- At least publish a list of compatible cards and drivers. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jan 13, 2009, 6:08am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Could the problem here be the Auto-Triangulation setting in the Mesh Editor Settings panel? Setting that to "none" should improve performance considerably when mesh editing high poly models.
The funky colored pixels could be a driver limitation. Might be that TS is trying to batch process too many verts at once and needs to break them up into smaller batches... |
Post by Finis // Jan 13, 2009, 6:16am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Thanks Jack. Tried it. Result: same thing but with a gray background.
If it is a "driver limitation" then we are back to the TS limitation of card/driver incompatibility. It should work with more cards and drivers.
If TS is going to focus on the DX powered workspace which relies on the graphics cards then it needs to be compatible with a large majority of cards. |
Post by TomG // Jan 13, 2009, 6:33am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Depends on what you mean by "supports more graphics cards".
Any graphics card from a 6600 and up will work with tS - that is any card newer than 4 or 5 years ago, so I would count that as "the majority". Any graphics card, right up to the latest $1,000 releases, have a limitation that can be reached in terms of memory, texture map size, geometry, processing speed. The limit will be affected by both hardware, and by driver.
It will be easier to exhaust the limit of an earlier card, eg 6600, than a newer card. Quite where that limit appears will vary for each person, depending on their hardware and driver set ups.
Artificial limits could be imposed, but then those with the latest and greatest will be "hobbled" to only using something compatible with an older system. I've been running tS on a series of cards from a 5600 and upward. Have run into driver problems now and then, have run into slowdowns now and then, not seen anything entirely like this though, and even on my not so good Quadro, not seeing anything like this.
Not entirely sure tS can readily detect the limits of a particular hardware / driver configuration - I do think that will be up to the user to find out what their set-up is capable of.
That said, will be interesting to have a look at this scene, since I tested the example scene that I noted with much higher poly counts and didn't get crashes - yes it was too slow to be useful, but that is true of any modeler, you run out of speed to support polys eventually. The limit in workspace is MUCH higher than in Model side, where I simply couldnt even navigate around with Marcel's quarter of a mill poly ship loaded, for instance. That's where things like layers come into play, to show only what you need to show.
Anyway, will test with the scene when time allows and report results! However there will always be hardware limits you can throw yourself and tS up against, no matter how good the hardware, or how good the software - just click SDS one more level and you'll have it eventually!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Finis // Jan 13, 2009, 6:48am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Right. It's never TS. It is always something else.
Most forum members know that you work for the company and you do put that in your signature. What is your position there? Salesman? Public Relations? I think you should put your position or job title in your signature too. |
Post by The Master Elite // Jan 13, 2009, 6:58am
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The Master Elite
Total Posts: 107
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I think this is unusual indeed...I've had weird in TrueSpace, but never this weird. o.0
To get rid of the vertice clouds I'd recommend selecting all faces, moving 'em out of the cloud, then use select vertices to delete the cloud...if it doesn't crash first. :(
I imported several meshes from my zBrush trial to TrueSpace months ago without a problem using LUUV...some are pretty high res too...but I never had this. |
Post by TomG // Jan 13, 2009, 7:06am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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When it's trueSpace, it's trueSpace. I'm happy to acknowledge a bug or an issue. This is just a statement that since this is changing for each graphics card (it seems), that it is not a simple software bug or error that needs correcting, or feature that needs adding. You will find me acknowledging those issues when they come up, that this feature ought to be there, this would be good, or this is a bug.
As for my job title, I don't have one :) I am in business development, customer support, testing, product design, web page management, marketing, PR, and customer relations if you would like to know - a little long to put in a signature. Also not sure of its bearing to this particular issue.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by v3rd3 // Jan 13, 2009, 8:58am
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v3rd3
Total Posts: 388
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So, basically, Tom does everything he can to take care of us and will stick his nose into anything to do it...... :banana: |
Post by TomG // Jan 13, 2009, 9:03am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Not sure about sticking my nose into a mouse trap though, that sounds painful :)
Other than that, it's true, I put my time and effort into wherever I can be of most benefit at any given point in time! This comes from Caligari being a smaller company of course, where one person wears many hats, as the expression goes. That's actually grown since acquisition, rather than reduced - playing my part in the team wherever I can best be of use!
Still doing some gallery page updates btw, so haven't had a chance to open the scene that this thread is about. But it's still on my to do list!
Tom |
Post by frootee // Jan 13, 2009, 9:34am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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I really like the detail on the head Dragneye. Keep up the good work, and I'll bring the salt shaker (only if this is a Giant Killer Snail From Outer Space type gig :D ) |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 13, 2009, 4:15pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Alrighty then....
I started out testing the limits, and even dared my machine to crash. Ta daaa! I win. I did it.
Ummm...wait. did I win or lose? lol
There is definitely a problem. I doubt it's my puter's ability to keep up. The drivers have been updated (they were updated in the middle of the crashing, and still I had the same problems). For once, I feel confident that it isn't my mesh (extra/double verts, etc, though it may be zb's effort at 'optimization' - ie: trying to cut down on poly count with x amount of geometry - it still is a lot of polys and a convoluted messy look).
If I had to guess, my instinct says it's tS architecture, hampered by being 32 bit. I believe if an effort is made to create a 64 bit version, tS will shine. Just that one effort alone will bring it accolades in its handling of complex and poly-heavy scenes, which in the 3D world, is the holy grail of performance.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone used another 3D program in 32 AND 64 bit? Have you seen a difference because of that one change? I'd Really love to get an answer to that one.
Anyway, here's the funny part. For a day or two, I have not touched any of these heavy poly models. Last night and today, I have purposefully played with the models, and the scenes that I've had the problems with. Out of spite, I pushed it to crash. Guess what. Nuttin.
What the Beeeeeeeeep!!
So... for now I will let the dust settle and get back to work. Let's see what happens.
I need a drink. :)
frootee - thanx. That was the middle of my detailing, so when completed it should be over 1 million polys, and quite nicer ( I dared not play with That mesh in tS, which in hindsight, was a Great move :) ) btw - they use brainpower like telekenesis, so they would know if you have evil intentions when you approach them. No, the best way to take them out would be at a distance with a 50 cal. sniping rifle.
The slug alien you see is the leader of a far off race that just showed up out of the blue on Earth after we have laid waste to it. We are living in walled off cities, trying to survive. Outside the walls, the only life that exists are simple life forms, from amoeba, fungi, etc, to some bugs and the likes of slugs.
We look down on these undeveloped life forms as the scum of the earth (which technically speaking, is what they are :) ). Alien race shows up which has a laser beam that can rejuvenate the land. (ahhh, the irony. We are saved by that which we scorn. Pretty cool huh?)
The original pic this comes from is the aliens demonstrating the life-giving beam, while our Gaian Leader and the Slug Leader look on amidst the cheering human crowds.
Unbeknown to us, they are preparing this newfound planet for colonization. They don't have emotions; like ants, they only have purpose.
That's the story I had put together for the CGSociety challenge pic. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 13, 2009, 4:33pm
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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GREAT Story !!!:cool: More, More !... |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 13, 2009, 4:41pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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:D Thanx Mr. 3d |
Post by frootee // Jan 13, 2009, 4:58pm
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Need a drink? I've got one here for ya!
Jack n Coke... 7 & 7..
Looks good Dragn. |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 15, 2009, 9:32am
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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^5 Froo!
I tend to deal in Absoluts (pun intended ), which is cool, cuz if we hang out, we'll never run out of our respective drink of choice. :D
I've caught a real bad cold so I'll be laying low for a bit on here. But I'm experimenting with various ways to pull this off, and dying to try out the skeleton tools on him (which I think is the most efficient way overall to show movement. Let the computer do the work of moving the faces; it does a better job than me in keeping the mesh smooth). |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 17, 2009, 5:08pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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In this first attempt, working with skeletons is a Breeze... feels Awesome.
Tried to adjust joint limits. The 'envelope' looks fine to me, but after when I use Dynapose I can only move the joint left and right, but not up and down. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong?
If it means anything, the way I stop using the tool when I'm done is by right-clicking. Is that fine, ok?
Also... shouldn't that circular adjuster (green arrow) be angled 'outwards' (in the direction of the dotted green arrow), instead of such an angle? Or doesn't it make a difference? |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 19, 2009, 5:34pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Um folks? Can I get some input? I'm stuck. The joint doesn't move freely - only left and right. |
Post by RichLevy // Jan 19, 2009, 5:40pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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It's hard to tell what you have there from just the picture... Is it possible to upload the scn file here or email it to me and I will see what I can see.
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // Jan 19, 2009, 5:45pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Is there a lock on that joint? I see you have Dynamics Lock Type selected to Position, if no lock select none and see what that does for you.
Rich |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 19, 2009, 5:49pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Also, why does it pick all four bones when I'm trying to edit/adjust only one (in this case the lower right)?? |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 19, 2009, 5:55pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Rich, just tried 'None'. Didn't work. It just won't budge from back n forth as opposed to up & down, or at least free-flowing, directionally speaking. |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 19, 2009, 6:02pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Here's the scene. Thank you. It may just be a simple thing, but... :( |
Post by RichLevy // Jan 19, 2009, 6:05pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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The weight map is correct. TS brach bones are like that, select any one of the 4 bone branches and they all highlite. That is they all effect the mesh around them . If you need to divide up enfluence more you would need to add more joints, do you need more movement in that area?
It was a shot in the dark :) I assume then you have no locks or handles on your little critter?
Make the arch raduis bigger and see if that has any effect?
Rich |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 19, 2009, 6:12pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Rich, I was just trying to get the swing of this; one can almost Always use more bones :) but figure this will do for now. Trying to keep it simple.
So, I would remove the influence of the other 3 bones by using 'remove' Weight Paint? |
Post by RichLevy // Jan 19, 2009, 6:16pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Ok, here is what is going on. The joints on the end, you do not need to sett he limits on them, they are not going to effect anything. Next thing you need to do, get 2 locks on the center of the body to keep the whole thing from moving around on you, that is probably the thing you are running into the most.
I would set this up for you but I am using a beta version right now and it is not compatible with the older versions right now.
I can draw you up a brief list of what to do if you need.
rich |
Post by RichLevy // Jan 19, 2009, 6:17pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Rich, I was just trying to get the swing of this; one can almost Always use more bones :) but figure this will do for now. Trying to keep it simple.
So, I would remove the influence of the other 3 bones by using 'remove' Weight Paint?
No, leave it the way that it is, the way it is now, it is one bone. It is just the way the branches in TS skeletons look.
Rich |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 19, 2009, 6:19pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Rich, that would be great. You can PM me with the info, or if it something others can find useful, post here.
Good point about adding more locks to isolate, but why can't I move it up or down? |
Post by RichLevy // Jan 19, 2009, 6:26pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Quick picture of what I am saying.
Click the blue cube icon in the locks
Now click one time in the center of the 4 bones we were talking about
and do that for the other one.
When you are in Dyna Pose click on those little cubes, they turn green, now move around your joints. Everything should be more stable now.
Rich |
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