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Slug Alien WIP
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Slug Alien WIP // Work in Progress
Post by Dragneye // Jan 9, 2009, 8:12pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Alrighty then...
Funny thing Tom. I tried to go down the list of your suggestions. Started with your 1st idea, 'fix geometry' on model side. :D It froze.
So...
Below I offer a pic of my computer status right after one incident from the other day. Now I can't remember if it was while I was changing from Workspace over to Model (or vice versa), or if the black screen you see behind the data happened while I tried to delete a small, simple selected loop.
Black screen, white screen, and just plain "truespace has to close" all happened with this scene, And a new scene I created from scratch using this model, And in another scene I had started using a different 340,000 poly model.
Does this info mean anything to anyone? Do you see any issues? ( I do realize that it says 1.99 GB memory usage, but I have 8 GB of memory with 64 bit. Is THIS the issue? And is this the Only issue?)
I also offer the tS scene file. You folks who are much better at this than me, please take a look and see what you can find wrong.
I Need to get back to creating rather than cursing :D ... or sounding mean-spirited.
And... is .obj a good type to work with? (for example, it doesn't seem to import/export the colors) |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 9, 2009, 8:24pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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The last zip was the wrong one, sorry. Man, I'm starting to bug out with this :DHere's the correct Rscn file |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 5:34am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Dragon we are trying to help you and some of the threads
that I posted in the past are just to do that !
You must have a problem with your instalation !
That file is wee small its got 83903 vertices and 167751 polygons
according to the info in Vue....
It runs smoothly into my Ts7.6 and exports smoothly via luuv.
I can import it into next to any 3d application and I´ve tried everything
from Lightwave (last version)to Cinema 4d to Vue... Carrara 6 pro
I even instanced 3 different imports at a time with hundreds and in Kerky eventhousands of times !
Duplicated it in workspace a few times
Its not your file ......;)
Its your setup of TS 7.6 or something with your computer that doesnt work!
HTH !
Peter |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 5:47am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Plus heres the resources that all the duplcated objects use... |
Post by Steinie // Jan 10, 2009, 5:53am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Dragneye,
Your scene loads with no problems but if I go into point edit mode on your object some strange stuff is showing up. Does this happen to you?
A very long straight line, a lot of colorful floating vertexes, and possibly a cylinder inside the body part of the slug.
I also don't think the model has any UV Mapping applied. As a test I applied a spherical UV and it behaved better. It was sluggish
without when in Material Editor. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 6:57am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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That´s strange because i dont see it !
Ghostbusters !:D |
Post by Steinie // Jan 10, 2009, 7:20am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Right click on object to enter point edit mode and then select "selected by painting" and "select faces"
Does that make this happen?
Edit:
I tried "softselection" and a weird thing is happening. A larger version of the slug is being produced around the original as can be seen in my screen grab. Is this a display issue maybe? I am using an ATI card. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 7:28am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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No Steinie I cant reproduce the problem on my compter because
it does not show up here.
Apart from a not very nice toplogy ... nothing shows see pictuer with
both selections made |
Post by trueBlue // Jan 10, 2009, 7:29am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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I do not notice the stray vertices either. Simple test last night deleting Edges and Loops seem fine as well. Perhaps switching between Model and Workspace is the culpirt. I would try and reset the default context, load your scene, select your object, use Heal Vertices, use Flatten the History, and save your object as RsObj in the Workspace library. Before you switch to Model for whatever reason save a copy of the RsObj. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 7:35am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I switched from workspace to model and back and find no problem
here you can see soft selection added.... |
Post by Steinie // Jan 10, 2009, 8:46am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Well this is weird because it does not happen on any other object I have tested. |
Post by TomG // Jan 10, 2009, 9:37am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I did see this on an imported building once, or something similar - I got the proper mesh of the building, but also got "non-solid" vertex only ghosts of the building, which I had to delete.
With them in the scene, it had odd results in exporting to VE (do a search on that, should find it someplace). Such odd geometry could also cause problems for tS, and it might be something similar here, hard to say.
Haven't had a chance to look at the scene, though I've grabbed it, however heading off out for the day real soon so won't have time until Monday probably to give it a whirl. Looks like the community is already on the case in a big way though, and maybe someone will have the answer by then!
For those of you not showing the problem, maybe you can resave the item as an RsObj and repost. Perhaps that will "remove" whatever strangeness Steinie is seeing and turn it into a "normal" tS object.
BTW, for getting colors, it depends on whether the other application writes the UV map, and how it writes its shaders. There may be export options for that. Also be sure to try the import options in LUUV too, to ensure that materials etc are maintained. Should be possible though, to at least have material groups you can repaint once in tS, even if the actual material isn't transferable (maybe just paint with bold plain colors in the source program, for where different texture maps need to go?)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 10, 2009, 10:26am
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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WOW - Steinie, I was right. You are one heck of a colorful guy (referring to how your pics have always made me smile and/or laugh in the past. Thanx for that btw :) ). I have Never seen extra colorful verts and or ghost shapes like in the pics you have posted here. Never. Now that's strange as all heck.
Yes, with this/these models (that have been subvidided in tS or zbrush), point edit mode has made it crash. Also when I have tried to delete loops (the missing loops on the model); I'd delete a loop or two, crash. Then delete one more, crash. Start from the beginning (new file, re-import, etc), same issues...another crash. I haven't dared to add a skeleton yet since I can't even edit it.
Yes, the edges are messy (one SDS layer in tS, and then next subdivisions in zbrush. The models topology(correct word?) is like that from zbrush. Actually, I see what it was trying to do; cut down on faces). That's why I was deleting loops; to lower the poly count, as there is no reason to have so many polygons towards the back of the model, which will see no real movement anyway, and details will be basically from a map. And this model has no UV, textures, paint, etc; just plain ole model
Now, I see some have no problems at all, and others have issues which I have never seen. I don't know what to say.
The crashes I have experienced so far with this, is either total black tS window (on Model and/or Workspace side for all of these), totally white screen, or the normal - "problem found. tS must close" warning.
The only crashes I ever had in all my time with 6.6 has been the "problem found. tS must close" one.
So... now I'm really lost. Have to think about this. I... don't know where to look.
This is a new computer, new copy of tS 7.6, and since I have started to use zbrush, That has never crashed.
Don't know what to say.
Let's try this.
1. Has anyone an nVidia GTX 260 video card?
2. Has anyone experience with using TS with zbrush?
edit: and between the 2 programs, neither has successfully loaded the texture, or color from the other program... both ways btw. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 12:23pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Dragneye : ad 1 no I dont have the card but its always good to check the drivers
ad 2; yes I use Zbrush with Truespace but prefer the retopology in Silo !
But you might want to look at those Truespace/Zbrush video tutorials.
They show how to import and export maps including displacement maps
part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSUg62gjwD0
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtXBsiKFeW4
part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmRxivX026c
HTH !
Peter
Plus here is the reexported file that Tom wanted... |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 1:53pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Note that this is about the heaviest mesh you can use in Truespace !
everythingn over this would have to be generated through maps.....
at least in TS...
Some other applications including TS workspace can do more.
this is the default head from Zbrush 3 with a snake tool displacement for the horns |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 5:08pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Here´s some screenshots to show whats possible in apps that let you host and render very high poly Zbrush files
Note: that its a file with 180 Mb obj. |
Post by Finis // Jan 10, 2009, 6:49pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Great model Dragneye.
Don't know if this will help you Dragneye but maybe the info. can help debug this.
I tried the slug and could move from workspace to model and back with no crashes.
I did see strange verticies in mesh edit mode on workspace similar to what Steinie saw. I also saw strange colors and some of the model not visible. I had no trouble with point edit on model side where I just selected some faces.
In workspace mesh edit I saw that some areas had verticies of various colors. I'm not that familiar with workspace so if that's normal then never mind.
The blue background picture is workspace mesh edit from solid or transparent display modes. Mesh edit from display modes with wireframes produces the grey background picture with the floating verts. The background color would change depending on the display mode before going into mesh edit.
I started a new scene and made a torus in workspace. On model side stretched into oval, SDS and extract mesh so it had 131,000 verts, or was it polys? Then mesh edit in workspace. The pink background picture was produced. The torus produced this picture regardless of the display mode. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 7:29pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Dont see anything you guys get...
here is when you ad a texture and I even painted it in zbrush and the maps did come in !
Plus 1 render in Vray... it only took seconds to render |
Post by Finis // Jan 10, 2009, 7:46pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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I think it is the graphics cards. We've tried the same model in the same program. No one reported trouble on model side. Workspace needs the graphics card and we all have different ones and get different results.
If incompatibility with various cards or driver versions is the problem then workspace must be changed so it can use many different ones with little trouble. If users can only use a few cards with a few driver versions then workspace will not succeed.
I don't see though how the crashes while switching sides would be connected to a graphics card. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 10, 2009, 7:51pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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No one reported trouble on model side. Workspace needs the graphics card and we all have different ones.
If incompatibility with various cards or driver versions is the problem then workspace must be changed so it can use many different ones with little trouble. If users can only use a few cards with a few driver versions then workspace will not succeed.
Yup ! Finis you nailed it !
Had graphic card issues myself some time ago and TS 7.6 needs the most recent ones.... But you have to download them yourself dont let
Windows look for them !
Thats what i said a few posts back down !
Check the drivers.....:D |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 12, 2009, 1:59pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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RAYMAN – Thank you for those videos. Will look into all of those and see any flaws in my transferring also.
How many polys is the horned head anyway?
Last night after updated some drivers ( didn't d/l all of them; so many, and don't know because of my noviceness which are relevant or not. Went with what looked right/needed for Vista 64, and nVidia GTX260), I tried to work with a 386,000 poly model for another project. TS was VERY slow and cannot even select a loop; it freezes when I TRY to select a loop.
All the past stuff/models have worked fine. Except (like with 6.6)... It's only when I start messing around with polycounts above about 20, 30k that this program (not the machine. TS crashes, and the computer continues to work fine with everything else) starts freaking out. Or is it bugging out? :) – Now, that prevents me from even thinking about quality animation... AGAIN, because abt 20k is the poly count of just 1 object in a scene many times. Which means for me... :(
QUE:Is there a 'cache' of memory that tS, or my computer stores for/from tS, that may be getting in the way/overfilled? It seems like there is a choke point somewhere, and... well, it chokes.
Also... is it my tS render or other settings (mind you, I haven't even played with the lights yet) that conflict somehow with my hardware?
Which settings? What do they mean? How can I figure out what to set? The manual is an overview. The specifics elude me.
Ya know what I mean? :)
Finis – ya see, until Steinie posted those pictures showing the 'colorful verts' you mention, I had never seen that before. Have you seen them before? He says he has an ATI video card. Do you?
What would recalculate points and add ghost ones out of thin air?
I know the game we as artists must play in the 3D world is to try and cheat; ie: cut poly count, cut poly count. Fake the details as much as possible, etc. – But I can't afford $7000 + programs, to do any 'real' work. Can't I just create? Is it Always about compromise? And are they all lacking roughly the same?
The other question that arises is, is it worth it? Do those expensive 'top of the line programs' have similar issues? Which IS the most stable overall program out there? Regardless of bias.
For example, my bias is trueSpace. There's many things here that are attractive to me personally.
But for business, for surviving as an artist, I need working tools. For THIS computer that I recently bought.
PLEASE reach out and PM me with your experiences with other programs. I am not here to offend or denigrate. But I need solutions, insights, like, right this moment.
For the record, I want to mention a lil secret I've been holding. - I had no other experience with any 3D app before tS other than Very little trying out of trial versions.
When I got here, I started realizing that the industry considered tS 'not worthy of being equally compared to the "big names" '. Well, to be frank, that pissed me off. Really. When I saw that the interface is just as, and in many cases simpler/better than other ones. When I saw a helpful and basically tolerant community. When I saw quality renders (for animation, so far less so) from some of you folks here, I created a secret agenda. I was going to wow them all with what animations tS CAN produce. 'They' downgrade tS because otherwise, they would have egg in the face if I, with this less than $1000 program, could get similar results. I am your secret warrior trueSpace!
But..... when I started getting serious, tS started bugging out. That was with 6.6, which was considered the best example of the architecture (I came in at the end of the cycle, right before the launch of 7x).
Let's say it was my lack of knowledge and/or my video card. So I stopped pushing the envelope and kept practicing my skills.
We forward to today. New computer; not 32 bit but now 64; new pretty good video card.
.........
Same problems. It may crash differently (probably due to Vista as opposed to XP), but crashes just the same; and for the seemingly same reasons.
I believe that tS is on the edge of greatness.
But... is it still me? Or is it tS? |
Post by Steinie // Jan 12, 2009, 2:35pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I've got to ask. Are animations being done with objects having this many polygons? ZBrush is really a substitute for clay modeling to me. It is very good at sculpturing but I certainly wouldn't want to animate with those models. With Retopology you could use a ZBrush object and create a clean mess for your animation. Silo has this and possibly ZBrush. I'm sure if you worked with a lower polycounts your headaches would diminish.
Just my helpful observation. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 12, 2009, 2:37pm
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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If I understand you correctly, you keep trying to re-load a scene (or object) that consistently causes problems with tS....either the model is extremely harder to move than normal, or tS wants to shut down when making the slightest of adjustments. As hard as it to want to do, I would re-create your model all over......this time I would stay away from "Metaballs" and use as little "Add SubDivision layer" as possible.
This is my best suggestion and quickest solution (unfortunately) that I can offer. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 12, 2009, 4:09pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I've got to ask. Are animations being done with objects having this many polygons?
The answer is as always with these questions yes and no !
Yes they use that high poly counts in animations in Hollywood but your going
to have trouble reproducing it on standard mashines.
As long as you dont have 64 bit programs you cant make use of the high
memory consumption.
No you dont need that high poly count for zbrush animations if you reuse
the maps that can be created from within zbrush.
Mainly normal maps and displacement maps but your render engine has to support it.
Are all software equaly good or bad at high poly count ?
Well no ! Some are coded more optimised and some are not.....
TS is not very good at it ! Workspace is much better and model side
is much worse or fallen back lots in time. wheres the problem?
Well its the bridge and its the importer and exporter.
Plus the model side is many years old !
Luuv is better then inbuilt but still very old and not up to date.
Well I know of 2 software for normal desktop that is good at high poly
count maybe 3 the third is not yet good at animation though.
The head that I showed you was about 150000 polys thats the limit in Truespace.
So what options do you have to use zbrush with Truespace ?
The videos show you exactly that !
You see how to make displacement maps that you can ad to a render engine
like renderman and the best implimentation that we got is dribble with 3delight.
but you dont have workspace so thats the catch !
I will PM you about what 3d is very good at high poly count....
one is european and the other is an industry standard....;) |
Post by Finis // Jan 12, 2009, 4:56pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Finis – ya see, until Steinie posted those pictures showing the 'colorful verts' you mention, I had never seen that before. Have you seen them before? He says he has an ATI video card. Do you?
I have an Nvidia GeForce 7600 GT, 512MB. I never saw the colorful verts or the ghost verts before but I don't use workspace much.
I tried a torus, made in a new scene all in TS, with 131000 verts and got the pink background picture in my earlier post in workspace. Whatever the problem is it happens with high poly objects. I know you want this to be a high quality animation but I think it could be done with fewer polys and have no visible difference in the finished movie.
Wish I had a great solution for you Dragneye. |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 12, 2009, 6:28pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Steinie - I am testing my computer and tS's limits I guess, and tS is showing some (for me anyway) glaring deficiencies. That was the point of this, plus, learning the workside interface. Now, I am forced to make the learning curve as short as possible, as I'm trying to make a buck at this.
I've spent a lot of time learning this specific program, and like I said, there is a secret reason why I want to stick with tS. (I have a tendency to root for the underdog, particularly when the criticism isn't fair).
Now, in regards to poly count and final product. My brain is geared towards motion pictures. Video game scenes require less polys by necessity, and visually speaking, realistic quality suffers, for the most part (but I look at games like Tomb Raider and Crysis and am floored at their beauty)
But then again, in both cases (motion pictures and video games), it is through trickery that they get a beautiful final product. Displacement maps, specular calculations, etc, etc.
Simply put, 'can i make it Live, or does it have to be only Memorex'? :D
In regards to zbrush. No, I don't intend to use the half million poly model (for example) I've sculpted for my other project . That will be used only in beauty shots. But, I can't even effectively move it around in tS, much less edit it in any way, since I'm having such problems with even a 50,000 poly model.
And THAT, is my dilemma. Are my eggs in the wrong place? No offense to anyone, or any company, or any program. When I was only learning and playing, this was an annoyance. Now, it's do or die for me.
Mr. 3d - I have used different versions of the same model, different models, and totally new scenes. It freaks out either way. Yet in zbrush, I play around with a 1,500,000 poly object with no headaches. But, it's another architecture, and it does only a few things, granted.
I blaze through games which are regarded as 'tests' for 'computer integrity', which in my mind is equal to moving around high poly models in tS. One works just about perfectly on this computer with hardly a hiccup, the other... not so well. And I haven't used metaballs much on purpose, to avoid any added headaches, like you imply.
RAYMAN - I now have one question for you. Can I come over and play on your computer, since you don't seem to be having any headaches with yours? :D
Waiting to hear from you. Thank You.
Finis - Yes, I never saw any of these problems before either. Nor a pink screen. Ever.
I know I can do it with less. But this is a Big limitation in my mind. Actually, since quitting is my least favorite concept, I have already started a new procedure to make this happen. But it's Not the optimal way. Going through the process, it's becoming painfully clear.
Thanx buddy. I wish there were simple answers also. That's what this dialogue is about. |
Post by The Master Elite // Jan 12, 2009, 7:38pm
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The Master Elite
Total Posts: 107
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One other thing you can do is bake a normal map out of your high-detail zBrush mesh and use it for a lower-poly TS model. This is a common Game Art solution.
...and awesome for you having and learning zBrush. Its a great support application...I'm aiming to get the finances for it together before next year, if possible.
You do know you can add color to your meshes using zBrush, right? :D
...and if you can play with RAYMAN's computer, can I play with yours? :p |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 12, 2009, 7:54pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Yes Master Elite, I know one can paint in zb. But you can see the problems I'm having with just a plain model.
And sure we can share, if it will help you along. Um, but how far from here is Deep space anyway? :D |
Post by The Master Elite // Jan 12, 2009, 8:32pm
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The Master Elite
Total Posts: 107
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No matter! With my Tachyon Subspace Comm-net, I can easily communicate with most human protocols using simple Sangheili-human reference-based translations which then process and encrypt/decrypt data for specific programs such as Elluminate. :cool: |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 12, 2009, 10:52pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Uhhhh... ok; come on over. About 3-ish tomorrow. Bring your sub-space parka though, it'll be cold here tomorrow. |
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