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Apr 26, 1998, 2:21pm

Instead of objects just stopping dead 30m, 40m, etc. in front of you,
how about fading them out in a fog-like effect between (for 30m) 25 and
35m? This kind of effect is seen in many flight sims and also I think
it's in a few of the 3D shooters. I guess the proper name for it is
"haze" but I'm not sure... Still a neat idea, whatever it is called :)

--
Dthknight - dthknight at earthlink.net - ICQ: 2603180
Dthknight Central: AW 1875N 2225W
Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~dthknight/
AWEC Home: http://awec.home.ml.org

"But the beginning of things, of a world especially, is necessarily
vague, tangled, chaotic, and exceedingly disturbing..." - Kate Chopin,
"The Awakening"

Apr 26, 1998, 2:43pm

Faded toward the sky color as they approach the visibility limit?

TechnoZeus

Apr 26, 1998, 2:52pm

Hmmm... I was just thinking of how that could be done without taking too
much processing. Here's a possibility, but it needs some refinement (and
it's not the only possibility by any means) so let me know what you think...
If "fog" is turned on for the world you are in, you would carry a large
facer object (sprite) in front of you that would fill your screen. This
object would be semitransparent, and the same color as the sky for that
world, and would be kept in front of you at all times at a distance about 10
meters closer to you than your visibility limit.
Obvious limitations: only one "fade" step.
Likely problem areas: 3rd person view, looking up or down, transparent
objects in the distance.

TechnoZeus

Apr 26, 1998, 2:59pm

Sorry. I left out one MAJOR problem area... Backdrops. Of course it would
be possible to simply add transparency to objects that are too close to the
visibility limit, but the ground object would have to be excluded or you run
into that problem with the backdrop again.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Apr 26, 1998, 3:06pm

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Somewhat... faded out... The best example I could find is attached -
this is from Microsoft (ugh!) Flight Simulator... 5 mile visibility,
about to fly over Biscayne Bay (off Miami), you can see a few of the
islands in the bay, but not quite all the way to Miami Beach. In AW,
from a certain point you might be able to see the nearby cafe (slightly
shrouded in haze), but not the nightclub across the street.

[View Quote] --
Dthknight - dthknight at earthlink.net - ICQ: 2603180
Dthknight Central: AW 1875N 2225W
Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~dthknight/
AWEC Home: http://awec.home.ml.org

"The best way to predict the future is to invent it." - Alan Kay
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--------------D59BE52750EE57919F076D62--

Apr 26, 1998, 3:36pm

The correct 3D term is "fogging" and RW can supposedly do it. I recently asked Roland about adding fogging to AW, actually, and he said he tried to get it to work in the past but couldn't figure it out or something, so, like most of the cooler features, it's never been done. The Tomb Raider series has fogging and it is a nice way of blending things in, although it blends to black rather than white as in your flight sim pic.

[View Quote] > Instead of objects just stopping dead 30m, 40m, etc. in front of you,
> how about fading them out in a fog-like effect between (for 30m) 25 and
> 35m? This kind of effect is seen in many flight sims and also I think
> it's in a few of the 3D shooters. I guess the proper name for it is
> "haze" but I'm not sure... Still a neat idea, whatever it is called :)

Apr 26, 1998, 3:57pm

I don't actually know, but my guess is the problem was with the ground
objects and/or the backdrop.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Apr 26, 1998, 5:31pm

Well, for worlds with modular grounds it shouldn't be a problem. If COF ever releases that modular groundmaking program, Shamus SAID he was gonna put into beta testing a couple weeks ago but still hasn't (and when I keep bugging him and Enzo about it, I find "it's been put on hold"--big suprise, eh?), then that would make making such ground much easier. But even WITH infinite grounds it shouldn't be a problem since fogging would just cover the part of it that's beyond visibility. I think fogging is just light fading (either to black or white) anyway, so I don't even know if it'd look good in AW, unless maybe it could fade to other colors...but even then...dunno...

As for backdrops Tomb Raider 2 uses them and fogging works fine with them.

[View Quote] > I don't actually know, but my guess is the problem was with the ground
> objects and/or the backdrop.

Apr 26, 1998, 6:13pm

Well, what I was thinking of is that if you change the "color" of the ground
as it gets farther away, you may get very noticeable z-buffering in many
worlds since the ground objects usually have huge amounts of overlap, and if
you change the transparency as distance increases, you may cause the
backdrop to "show through" which again causes problems of it's own since the
backdrop usually ends just below the horizon.

Anyway, this Modular ground idea sounds very interesting. Any chance
somebody could get a CoF rep to pop in here and make some kind of statement
about what it is and where they're planning on going with it, and perhaps in
what version?

TechnoZeus.

[View Quote]

Apr 26, 1998, 8:21pm

[View Quote] > Well, what I was thinking of is that if you change the "color" of the ground
> as it gets farther away, you may get very noticeable z-buffering in many
> worlds since the ground objects usually have huge amounts of overlap, and if
> you change the transparency as distance increases, you may cause the
> backdrop to "show through" which again causes problems of it's own since the
> backdrop usually ends just below the horizon.

But if fogging is just light control/effect, z-buffering shouldn't be any more affected than it usually is in AW. Z-buffering is when a calculation has to be made in order to determine which object (polygon) shows along the z-axis (depth). Since I think fogging is just lighting, this shouldn't matter.

> Anyway, this Modular ground idea sounds very interesting. Any chance
> somebody could get a CoF rep to pop in here and make some kind of statement
> about what it is and where they're planning on going with it, and perhaps in
> what version?

Shamus Young was working on it. There's more info on my RenderWare site (http://tnlc.com/rw) about it on the first page.

Apr 26, 1998, 9:51pm

Correct. The difference is that people would "see" it.

[View Quote]

Apr 26, 1998, 11:08pm

Uh, see what? You didn't limit the quoting to what you're specifically replying to.

[View Quote] > Correct. The difference is that people would "see" it.

Apr 26, 1998, 11:28pm

Okay. Let me "attempt" so say very clearly what I was trying to say
earlier. Again, I don't actually "know" that there would be such a
problem, but what I was trying to indicate is that I can see the potential
for the visual flickering associated with z-buffering between objects of
different shades or colors if the ground objects in the distance were faded
to a different color than those in the forground.

Anyway, I suppose I should not have mentioned the potential problem in the
first place since this forum is intended (as I understand it) for ideas and
requests neither of which benefits from my negative input. Prehaps there
would be a problem... perhaps not. Since I am not part of the programming
team that COF has chosen to entrust such determinations to, my expression of
concern is not only non-productive, but may tend to reduce the creativity
others exercise by causing them to only post ideas in which they can find no
flaws. Please excuse this oversight on my part.

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Apr 27, 1998, 1:37am

Um, no need for the low self-esteem bit, man. I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Since, I believe, fogging is just light effects, no "flickering" from z-buffering should happen since light isn't what causes z-buffering; overlapping, intersecting, and objects close to one anothe do...and since light isn't an object, it ain't gonna do it.

And since I've never seen fogging any color other than white or black, that just gives more support that it's just a light effect. However, RW can have colored lights so perhaps colored fogging is possible--I don't know. Hopefully Roland will chime in here and set us straight.

At any rate, I was kind of hoping for a sprite effect for objects past a certain distance. But it would probably be too much in performance loss to calculuate sprite versions of all the objects past the visibility distance anyway. The avatar distance rendering in 2.0 is what I'm referring too...only for objects. But the avatar one is just a texture of one avatar made into a sprite and it's always facing you and looks kind of creepy...not too mention heavily aliased.

Then there is mipmapping, which uses different-resolution textures at various distances, but I'm not sure how that would do performance wise, as I think mipmapping is just to try and lose the moire pattern on textures from far away. For a good example of this, go to Utah world and look at my chainlink fences around GZ; they moire all over the place.

Another thing I've heard of is BSP (binary space partitioning). I think it's supposed to not render things behind other things, but I don't know for sure. I told Roland about it a couple months ago and he didn't know RW could do it, or something, and said it was something to think about. So, that could be a possibility, but who knows when or even if it'll ever happen.

COF really needs more developers to move things faster...maybe they can merge with another 3D VR company or something...like Superscape or Blaxxun. I think I read about some 3D VR company mergers, lately...On-Live and some other one...maybe Blaxxun...not sure what that means but COF might want to look into it.

[View Quote] > Okay. Let me "attempt" so say very clearly what I was trying to say
> earlier. Again, I don't actually "know" that there would be such a
> problem, but what I was trying to indicate is that I can see the potential
> for the visual flickering associated with z-buffering between objects of
> different shades or colors if the ground objects in the distance were faded
> to a different color than those in the forground.
>
> Anyway, I suppose I should not have mentioned the potential problem in the
> first place since this forum is intended (as I understand it) for ideas and
> requests neither of which benefits from my negative input. Prehaps there
> would be a problem... perhaps not. Since I am not part of the programming
> team that COF has chosen to entrust such determinations to, my expression of
> concern is not only non-productive, but may tend to reduce the creativity
> others exercise by causing them to only post ideas in which they can find no
> flaws. Please excuse this oversight on my part.

Apr 27, 1998, 3:50am

I enabled fogging in some truespace experiments and it really slowed
everything down.

Paul

[View Quote]

Apr 29, 1998, 7:27am

Yes it does, unless supported in hardware. Most people don't have cards yet that
will support this in hardware (and even those who do, there's the driver
issue...)

[View Quote] > I enabled fogging in some truespace experiments and it really slowed
> everything down.
>
> Paul
>

Apr 29, 1998, 12:15pm

Doesn't seem to slow Tomb Raider down much, if any; and it has software, DirectX (Direc3D), and propietary (3Dfx, Voodoo, S3, etc) renderering. And if there was an option to turn it off, in AW, there shouldn't be a problem.

[View Quote] > Yes it does, unless supported in hardware. Most people don't have cards yet that
> will support this in hardware (and even those who do, there's the driver
> issue...)

Apr 29, 1998, 2:53pm

Downloaded the Tomb Raider II deom... Not impresses. It's slow, has poor
graphics, and does not react consistantly to keyboard input. Also, objects
were placement was full of overlap, and the fogging effect, although working
properly, added little or nothing to the realism. Just my opinion, but
since I went through the trouble of downloading and installing it, I thought
I might save someone else the trouble be offering a critique of sorts. On
the positive side, I did think the swimming action of the main character's
avatar as well as the running movements and the leaning into a turn were
done quite well, and the tiger was pretty neat. :·)

TechnoZeus

[View Quote]

Apr 29, 1998, 3:01pm

Sorry about all the typos in that last post. Feel free to ask me what word
was intended if you have trouble figuring any of it out. That's what I get
for typing while short on time. :)

TechnoZeus

Apr 29, 1998, 3:42pm

Not impressed?? For the complexity and versatility of TR (especially 2), it's DAMN impressive, compared to AW. Play it some more and maybe you'll change your mind. Also, turning on bilinear filtering will smooth things out. Yes, textures don't seam very well, and they can be pixelated at times (moreso with bilinear filtering off, obviously), and there are z-buffering problems (overlap), but compared to AW, TR is better in many respects. Lara's moves blow AW's avatar control out of the water, for one. Second, with all the textures and objects in TR, it still gives way better frame rate than AW. Third, TR's sound effects are MUCH better at mixing and fading than AW's poppy, jerky, glitchy sound playing.

[View Quote] > Downloaded the Tomb Raider II deom... Not impresses. It's slow, has poor
> graphics, and does not react consistantly to keyboard input. Also, objects
> were placement was full of overlap, and the fogging effect, although working
> properly, added little or nothing to the realism. Just my opinion, but
> since I went through the trouble of downloading and installing it, I thought
> I might save someone else the trouble be offering a critique of sorts. On
> the positive side, I did think the swimming action of the main character's
> avatar as well as the running movements and the leaning into a turn were
> done quite well, and the tiger was pretty neat. :·)

Apr 29, 1998, 4:21pm

Neither opinion is worth the electrons their written with.
IMO


[View Quote]

Apr 29, 1998, 6:29pm

Fabulous, champ. Have a cookie. Drive through. <boot>

[View Quote] > Neither opinion is worth the electrons their written with.
> IMO

Apr 29, 1998, 8:46pm

*munches cookie.rwx* hmm I'm getting good at stealing these cookies...
:)

[View Quote] --
Dthknight - dthknight at earthlink.net - ICQ: 2603180
Dthknight Central: AW 1875N 2225W
Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~dthknight/
AWEC Home: http://awec.home.ml.org

"But the beginning of things, of a world especially, is necessarily
vague, tangled, chaotic, and exceedingly disturbing..." - Kate Chopin,
"The Awakening"

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