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Jul 13, 2004, 7:34pm

On 13 Jul 2004 17:20:10 -0400, "lady nighthawk"
[View Quote] >*Mutes self*
>
>LNH

No need to mute self LOL. Criticism is necessary, but also realisation
that there are limits to what we can do. We don't own the company. I
think all beta testers that participated to this new feature have done
an extraordinary job, which could not have been done otherwise. I
sent theoretical code to translate volume to internal code (and had a
big fight about this), others have done a heck of a lot of testing to
allow less powerful computers to use this new feature. It is not
perfect, and will need more testing and tuning. This testing will be
done by all users, feedback to AWI is needed. They will not
necessarily respond (they don't even seem to answer most of my emails,
foo), but in time things might progress.

Alex

Jul 13, 2004, 9:41pm

Xela, Mauz told me throughout AW 3.6 beta testing, the beta testers weren't supposed to report on non-"media"-command bugs until the end, AFTER it was already released:

Mauz: 3.6 alpha was just about media command, we were told not to post non-media bug reports :/
Mauz: until at the end
Mauz: when i was on vacation :p
Eep: but beta was released then...doh
Mauz: and they released it without any beta

I find it disrespectful to the community that AWI would do that. If you don't, you're even more of a gullible lemming than I previously thought...

[View Quote]

Jul 14, 2004, 10:08am

This actually made sense because the 3.6 version ONLY introduced the
media command and was not supposed (and did not) include any other
feature or option.

Whether is it wise to introduce a new feature before all fixes for old
ones were being made is another issue and discussion.



[View Quote]

Jul 14, 2004, 10:26am

I do see, though, a valid point of critics here, even when it was not
outspoken but more induced.

I noticed, too, that most of the beta testers seem to have been chosen
from a technical point of view, which might be questionable. The design
of the client includes not only technical issues, but also questions of
useability and appeareance, and it would make perfect sense when you
also have representatives of the wow-all-the-colors-and-sounds and the
where-are-my-glasses user groups, as well as from groups who use the
program in a less-technical sense (who walk around in the landscape to
experience details rather than fly to reach a target, who use it only
for talking face to face and not for building or messaging, etc.).

Although the main perspective of the developers lie, naturally, on the
technical side, I have on numerous occasions tried to intervene and to
bring non-technical also into the discussion.

In my humble opinion, a beta test should test the complete end product
with all its appearences and impressions, including "feels" and
triggered emotions, and not just or mainly the technical aspects (hint
word: acceptance), and this is especially true for a product that is
made up almost only from its "look" (only that is, what a user sees in
the end and while using it).

I have seen over the years here in the newsgroups many reactions to new
versions, and most of the negative reactions were a result from outer
and inner design changes - while complaints about technical
insufficiencies were more rare.

Therefore, I think the discussion taking place here now, is not a
negative thing per se and testers and non-testers and developers try to
understand why one groups thinks this and the other group that. :-)




[View Quote]

Jul 14, 2004, 10:42am

[View Quote] >This actually made sense because the 3.6 version ONLY introduced the
>media command and was not supposed (and did not) include any other
>feature or option.

Exactly. This beta was focused on the introduction of the media
command only, not on solving other bugs. That is what Chrispeg was
asked to do, and he asked us to concentrate on that task. "En passant"
some bugs were also fixed by him, but that was not the main objective.
As you may have noticed, this beta was very short compared to 3.4 and
3.5, weeks instead of many months. Chrispeg worked days, nights and
weekends on this, practically non-stop. The code was re-written
twice. There was very good feedback between Chrispeg and beta
testers, the best I've ever seen. This produced the streaming media
functionality in record time.

>Whether is it wise to introduce a new feature before all fixes for old
>ones were being made is another issue and discussion.

That is a very good point and is argueable, but you can not blame
Chrispeg or the beta testers for having done a good job on the media
command :)

It is now up to the community to test it, send bug reports, etc. If
the media command had not been made, you would not have its
benefits... and would not need to report bugs on it either!

Alex

>
>
>
[View Quote]

Jul 14, 2004, 10:52am

In general, I agree with you. But in this particular case, the
technical side was overwhelming and needed to have priority, so I
agree whith the chosen approach, which was to have it working and have
it fast. We can now, having the basic tool, look at wider
implications. Whether this is done in a beta testing structure or not
is a different matter.

Alex

[View Quote] >I do see, though, a valid point of critics here, even when it was not
>outspoken but more induced.
>
>I noticed, too, that most of the beta testers seem to have been chosen
>from a technical point of view, which might be questionable. The design
>of the client includes not only technical issues, but also questions of
>useability and appeareance, and it would make perfect sense when you
>also have representatives of the wow-all-the-colors-and-sounds and the
>where-are-my-glasses user groups, as well as from groups who use the
>program in a less-technical sense (who walk around in the landscape to
>experience details rather than fly to reach a target, who use it only
>for talking face to face and not for building or messaging, etc.).
>
>Although the main perspective of the developers lie, naturally, on the
>technical side, I have on numerous occasions tried to intervene and to
>bring non-technical also into the discussion.
>
>In my humble opinion, a beta test should test the complete end product
>with all its appearences and impressions, including "feels" and
>triggered emotions, and not just or mainly the technical aspects (hint
>word: acceptance), and this is especially true for a product that is
>made up almost only from its "look" (only that is, what a user sees in
>the end and while using it).
>
>I have seen over the years here in the newsgroups many reactions to new
>versions, and most of the negative reactions were a result from outer
>and inner design changes - while complaints about technical
>insufficiencies were more rare.
>
>Therefore, I think the discussion taking place here now, is not a
>negative thing per se and testers and non-testers and developers try to
>understand why one groups thinks this and the other group that. :-)
>
>
>
>
[View Quote]

Jul 14, 2004, 11:05am

Yes, the 3.6 changes were purely of internal/technical nature, other
than the 3.5 release.


[View Quote]

Jul 14, 2004, 6:05pm

[View Quote] That's not true:

Build 550 Notes (06/29/04)

Fixes:

Fixed issue where worlds list would be too narrow by default.
Fixed issue "Register" button would be partly hidden if the gesture-bar is off.
Fixed issue where toolbar would paint over the logo when resizing the main window.
Fixed issue where telegram-list would not scroll to last telegram, when control tab was rolled-up.

Build 549 Notes (06/21/04)

Fixes:

Fixed conflict when midi was launched using a "create url http://.../file.mid" command through the embedded web-browser.
Fixed issue where browser crashed randomly, under certain circumstances on XP with WMP8 and DX9, and when sound and midi were off.


Build 548 Notes (06/16/04)

Changes:

Disable Local Teleports world option also disables Local Invites.
Limit the amount of selected objects to 128 to prevent world disconnects. The more objects are selected at once, the longer the interval to duplicate all the selected object is.
If chat is not enabled , always display chat-input in grey (e.g. if user does not have speak rights).
Fixes:

Fixed crash, when leaving a world with ambient sound on.
Fixed issue where sign "text" was not displayed correctly when object had no name.
Fixed flashing chat input while in mouse mode and world attributes change.


Build 547 Notes (06/14/04)

New features:

Added ambient sound in world features.
Added mute all sounds when browser is minimized or in background.


> Whether is it wise to introduce a new feature before all fixes for old
> ones were being made is another issue and discussion.

It's a basic programming tenet...

[View Quote]

Jul 14, 2004, 8:36pm

I do not read about any new features or options being included. :-)

But apart from that, you did not quote from the invitation letter to the
testers which stated without any doubt that the 3.6 revision only deals
with media, though some obvious fixes of problems would be possible when
they were along the way and would not take too long.
I quote here:

(...)
It is to test the embedded media player, to improve features and
capabilities of it. The first phase of this beta cycle will only be
about the new multimedia capabilities. All other concerns can be
discussed later.
The plan is, to have 3.6 out as soon as any possible
(...)
<<<

This makes hopefully the intentions of the 3.6 beta test more clear. :-)





[View Quote]

Jul 14, 2004, 9:52pm

No I did not quote from it, neither did the oponents, or oponents
citing beta testers :)

It is always annoying when you are not admitted to a group. I beta
tested a few here, and suddenly, for 3.5, I was not admitted. I
understand perfectly well that sort of feeling, it was very annoying
for me and impaired my work with bots a lot.

But the nature of beta testing, which is done now ALWAYS by a chosen
group that can read and post to the beta ng, is such that this sort of
things happen. The beta ng is not meant for users, it is meant to give
direct feedback to AWI programmers. Feedback they can read without
having to weed out discussions, flames, etc. The beta ng is reserved
exclusively for this use, according to what AWI decides they need at a
certain moment. It is not meant for our satisfaction.

Open beta is actually just a name for what we can always do: send bug
reports directly to AWI. No feedback though for the sender, but my
experience in the beta ng is that mostly, no feedback comes from the
AWI team unless THEY need feedback (this time, Chrispeg DID send a lot
of feedback, a notable exception). When AWI declares an open beta, it
actually only means, in my opinion, that they are not quite sure their
product is up to standard yet.... but it never is :) It is usefull,
though, when lots of changes have been made, people feel motivated to
report.

So this time, I think they were cleverer: no 'fake' open beta, since
the procedures are the same anyway. They could have been clearer in
the sense that anyone can post to this ng (community) as has always
been the case and send good bug reports to the AWI team anyhow. This
is how open beta has always worked.

The first beta ng, if I remember rightly years ago, was a total chaos.
It was open to anyone applying. Worse than the community,
general.discussion and add what you will ng combined. No use at all
for a programming team. I am glad this has changed!

Alex

[View Quote] >I do not read about any new features or options being included. :-)
>
>But apart from that, you did not quote from the invitation letter to the
>testers which stated without any doubt that the 3.6 revision only deals
>with media, though some obvious fixes of problems would be possible when
>they were along the way and would not take too long.
>I quote here:
>
>(...)
>It is to test the embedded media player, to improve features and
>capabilities of it. The first phase of this beta cycle will only be
>about the new multimedia capabilities. All other concerns can be
>discussed later.
>The plan is, to have 3.6 out as soon as any possible
>(...)
><<<
>
>This makes hopefully the intentions of the 3.6 beta test more clear. :-)
>
>
>
>
>
[View Quote]

Jul 14, 2004, 11:57pm

I think anyone should be allowed to download a beta version (no closed
beta) but only a select few be admitted to the beta NG ..the rest could
submit bugs via e-mail..and AWI could relieve themselves of having to
give support/help for the beta version...

That way nobody is unhappy that they didn't get to use the beta version
and the sanity of the beta NGs is preserved...

Ryan

Jul 15, 2004, 3:00am

Note the "new features" section in build 547...

For AWI not to allow bugs about them (like global ambient sound disabling ALL "sound"-command sounds, which I found immediately after enabling a global ambient sound) is just stupid.

Why would I have quoted from the invitation letter if *I* never got it?

Is the 2nd beta cycle phase a general release? That's not beta version--it's a RELEASED version...

The plan was, apparently, to have the media command out as soon as (-"any") possible in order to appease some idiotic investor--other bugs be damned (and, yet again, new ones created from new features).

[View Quote]

Jul 15, 2004, 9:59am

Ha... Here's a wee bit of history and I don't need some old Web Page...

You'r back... (assuming it's really you...) and you apparently haven't
grown up any...

You were booted out of the News Group(s)a few years back... I'v no
problem with them giving you another chance... Obviously some people
never learn tho'...

For those new to the News Group and Alpha and haven't the benefit of
memory... Take everything (b)Eep says with a grain of salt...

(I haven't read the 'History' Page for years... was a nice walk (if
childishly one sided) down memory lane... thanx... )

Again, for those new to the NG or Alpha... (b)Eep has a (how shall I put
this) uniquely one sided take on events... If he spent 1/2 the time
creating a balanced review as he does trying to prove to anyone who'l
listen that he's either right, he was wronged, he knows best, etc Alpha
(and it's Citizens) would have something of value... As it stands,
however, this 'history' is just one persons 'blog'... Worth only as much
as the options of the person writing it...

And for those who are wondering who I am... and how I know these
things... (fair questions...) I'v been a Citizen of Alpha since Nov
'95... I was 'actually' around when some of the 'history' that (b)Eep
only write about 2nd hand was happening...

Those new to the NG or Alpha who wish to know the history should be sure
to check credentials of the one writing it... If(s)he wasn't there then
odds are it's based on hearsay... (or worse...)


[View Quote] > Indeed...but this kind of mentality from COF/AWCI/AWC/AWI/whatever isn't new, unfortunately...
>
> http://tnlc.com/eep/aw/history.html
>
[View Quote]

Jul 15, 2004, 9:13pm

Feel free to add your "corrections" to my experiences, Tyrell. But, considering you weren't there for most of them, YOUR opinions are most likely worth even less, so...<shrug>

Get over yourself.

[View Quote]

Jul 15, 2004, 11:48pm

Eep has a notorious history, not only in AW newsgroups, but in quite a
few others related to 3D (just try a Google). On the one side, he
does a lot to help others understand how 3D works - and not always
correctly, but who does - on the other side he is extremely obnoxious.
Unprovoked autistically obnoxious.

Although I do respect his good aspects - and he has quite a few - due
to the compulsive tendency he has to insult others and consider that
all what others do even for free is his own property, I have banned
him from my email and newsreader, so I only see replies to his posts.

A grain of salt is an understatement, a bucket or two would be more
accurate :)

Alex

[View Quote] >Ha... Here's a wee bit of history and I don't need some old Web Page...
>
>You'r back... (assuming it's really you...) and you apparently haven't
>grown up any...
>
>You were booted out of the News Group(s)a few years back... I'v no
>problem with them giving you another chance... Obviously some people
>never learn tho'...
>
>For those new to the News Group and Alpha and haven't the benefit of
>memory... Take everything (b)Eep says with a grain of salt...
>
>(I haven't read the 'History' Page for years... was a nice walk (if
>childishly one sided) down memory lane... thanx... )
>
>Again, for those new to the NG or Alpha... (b)Eep has a (how shall I put
>this) uniquely one sided take on events... If he spent 1/2 the time
>creating a balanced review as he does trying to prove to anyone who'l
>listen that he's either right, he was wronged, he knows best, etc Alpha
>(and it's Citizens) would have something of value... As it stands,
>however, this 'history' is just one persons 'blog'... Worth only as much
>as the options of the person writing it...
>
>And for those who are wondering who I am... and how I know these
>things... (fair questions...) I'v been a Citizen of Alpha since Nov
>'95... I was 'actually' around when some of the 'history' that (b)Eep
>only write about 2nd hand was happening...
>
>Those new to the NG or Alpha who wish to know the history should be sure
>to check credentials of the one writing it... If(s)he wasn't there then
>odds are it's based on hearsay... (or worse...)

Jul 16, 2004, 12:03am

Oh the slanderous and libelous remarks seeping up from AW's seweristic depths...

Autistically obnoxious--that's a new one. <chuckle>

I don't consider other people's works as my own--that's just silly. Why would I bother giving credit to so many people throughout my websites (not just RWX one)? Stop being a twit, Xela...

[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 3:04pm

"to appease some idiotic investor"? Eepenheit 911

Where do you come up with this stuff?


E





[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 3:05pm

and he makes a groovy Max Payne mod!

:P
[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 5:54pm

Well, what is the mentality behind the "media" command then? I don't recall it being on the feature vote page: http://activeworlds.com/FeatureVote/ :P

[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 5:57pm

Heh...hey, want to hire me to do some AW scripting? :P

For those interested, the MP mod is at http://tnlc.com/eep/mp/

[View Quote] [View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 5:59pm

Since when did most AW users actually know what would actually benefit the
Active Worlds program?

- Mark R

[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 6:21pm

Are you kidding? People have been asking for video on objects for YEARS

E


[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 6:21pm

Seriously though.

The addition of streaming opens up the possibility of combining external
media with VR environments that was not previously possible. For example if
a recording artist had a world (and a 3.6 server... heh) then they could do
such things as live concerts mixing AW content (and hence Multiple Users)
with their media...

It also opens up the possibility for these AW Radio's to actually play
through... well.. radios (of the RWX kind)... so if someone say put a radio
at GZ on an activate command... people could shut the heck up with spamming
links to them all.

Also of course, getting streaming sound is kinda preemptive to getting the
VoIP implimented, to get users experienced and expecting live-feed audio.

Mainly though, producers have the ability now to link their output, directly
to the user, and get real-time feedback from the chat and such.

Then all the other crap like video confrencing blah blah blah.

- Mark R

[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 6:22pm

Whats with the delay for MP2? I have been waiting a long time

E


[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 6:25pm

I just noticed I have "Neon Genesis Evangelion - Cruel Angel Thesis.MP2" on
my desktop...

*renames it to .mp3*

- Mark R

[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 11:51pm

Since when did AWI know? ;)

[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 11:52pm

Then why wasn't it on the feature vote?

[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 11:53pm

Blah blah blah...it's all crap compared to AW's basic design: multi-user level editing, which is what AWI should be focusing primarily on. Everything else is secondary fluff.

[View Quote]

Jul 19, 2004, 11:54pm

Someone else already made it. Read the page. :P

[View Quote]

Jul 20, 2004, 5:58pm

wow! the easy to read dark gray on black template!

:P




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