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New monitor
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New monitor // Roundtable
Post by splinters // May 1, 2006, 10:20am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Just bought a new monitor guys. It was from Staples in the UK and has a 14 day no quibble money back so I thought what the hell. However, it is really weird after using a CRT for so long but it is big and text seems crisp. Anyone familiar with it and can tell me if it is going to be up to plenty of 3D work, or should I look into another;
Gateway FPD1960 19" Monitor.
Spec says 16ms response but manual says 12ms/
1280x1024 max
.294mm dot pitch
Analog and DVI inputs (I'm on analog but I have a Radeon 9800 Pro so I am sorting that out tomorrow!)
Really, I bought it because it was fairly cheap and my CRT was looking a little ancient. The option to take it back also swayed my decision. Oh, it was £169 with a 1yr warranty. |
Post by parva // May 1, 2006, 10:34am
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jump to DVI input.
12ms, well If you don't want to play action shooter it's still good :D
I using a 1 year old BenQ and play Shooter with 16ms and have no problems with it...
I don't know the monitor but I would first watch after user response or looking into tests before I buy something. A test in a shop would be also good to looking for pixel errors or alike.
Many say that LCD isn't good for graphic visualisation and indeed many firms use still CRT but I wouldn't go back to a CRT.
But a hint: don't discard you old CRT. If he is still good you can use it as second monitor. With two monitors you work much faster, a promise ;) |
Post by splinters // May 1, 2006, 11:46am
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splinters
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Monitor was running in the shop next to a Sony and I saw no real difference. I already have it up and running and I am impressed so far...no dead pixels and no going back to a CRT. The space I have saved is incredible and I am now redesigning my office around the extra space...might even spread my keyboard and Piano out a bit...;)
As for space, no chance of two monitors. Kids are getting the 19" CRT for their playroom...lucky little tikes.:)
As for shooters-Doom 3 and Quake 4 looked very blocky but I guess that is because I am running on such a big screen. Images look good-just need to calibrate it properly for design work. |
Post by Alien // May 1, 2006, 12:27pm
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Alien
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Are you running those games at a lower res than the monitor's optimum res [1280x1024]? If so that might explain the blockiness, apparently LCDs aren't too good with different/lower-than-optimal resolutions, whereas CRTs tend to cope much better with different/lower resolutions... or so I'm told. I have yet to experience the joys of LCD ownership. :( |
Post by chrono // May 1, 2006, 6:33pm
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Alien, your not missing a thing! The slightest angle viewing angle change causes havok with color, tone, and contrast. It's a real be pain because if you shift your chair some it causes problems. And just how many of us sit rock still in thier computer chair! ;) |
Post by xmanflash // May 1, 2006, 11:47pm
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Monitor was running in the shop next to a Sony and I saw no real difference. I already have it up and running and I am impressed so far...no dead pixels and no going back to a CRT. The space I have saved is incredible and I am now redesigning my office around the extra space...might even spread my keyboard and Piano out a bit...;)
As for space, no chance of two monitors. Kids are getting the 19" CRT for their playroom...lucky little tikes.:)
As for shooters-Doom 3 and Quake 4 looked very blocky but I guess that is because I am running on such a big screen. Images look good-just need to calibrate it properly for design work.
"might even spread my keyboard and Piano out a bit" - You have music gear? - Did you sequence?
Also, you may not want to put the CRT in the kids room if you start to read about EMF and the effects on young(?) ones.. I had to remove a whole bunch of high EMF generating electronic objects from the OTHER SIDE of the kids bedroom walls (my bathroom) to get the fields down.. CRT's are extremely unhealthy, especially for children.. Get them a cheap LCD instead - theyll live longer - promise ;) .. |
Post by Alien // May 2, 2006, 12:03am
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Alien
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Alien, your not missing a thing! The slightest angle viewing angle change causes havok with color, tone, and contrast. It's a real be pain because if you shift your chair some it causes problems. And just how many of us sit rock still in thier computer chair! ;)
Whilst I don't yet have an LCD monitor, I haven't really noticed much in the way of the issues you describe when viewing the 1 my stepfather bought for their computer. He's a video engineer by trade, and believe me when I say that there's no way he would have put up with it if it was anywhere near as bad as you describe. He'd have most likely taken it back to the shop the same day.
Admittedly neither he nor the company he works for use LCDs for colour grading work [apparently they use £8000-£9000 CRTs], but that sort of stuff is worlds apart from anything I or probably most people on this forum would have need for.
I agree that LCDs used to be bad, but if they were still as bad as you claim there wouldn't be as many happy LCD owners as there are. I'm sure there are perhaps a few crap 1s still being sold, but for the most part there's been a lot of improvement. That's why it pays to read reviews [so you can avoid any of the few naff 1s still floating about]. :) |
Post by splinters // May 2, 2006, 1:05am
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"might even spread my keyboard and Piano out a bit" - You have music gear? - Did you sequence?
Also, you may not want to put the CRT in the kids room if you start to read about EMF and the effects on young(?) ones.. I had to remove a whole bunch of high EMF generating electronic objects from the OTHER SIDE of the kids bedroom walls (my bathroom) to get the fields down.. CRT's are extremely unhealthy, especially for children.. Get them a cheap LCD instead - theyll live longer - promise ;) ..
I messed with settings; set res to match screen 1280x1024. Tweaked colour and gamma etc. and while it cannot compare with a high end Sony, it is pretty good.
TS7 looked very different (better, crisper) as does my artwork. Now either the monitor needs further tweaking or my piccies have been wrong all along. Will have to investigate....
As for the keyboards, I used to be a pro musician; gigging and session. Stopped about 6 years ago but played a reunion gig last Friday. I seem to have caught the bug again so I am looking to sell my Yamaha P-150 stage piano and Korg N364 workstation to get something lighter and then I may gig again..:) |
Post by Alien // May 2, 2006, 1:57am
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Alien
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TS7 looked very different (better, crisper) as does my artwork. Now either the monitor needs further tweaking or my piccies have been wrong all along. Will have to investigate....
They could well have been if the gamma was a bit off with your previous monitor[s]. The way I set mine was by using the monitor gamma util in PSP, except instead of adjusting it [which would only affect PSP], I left it at the default 1.00 & used the gamma setting in the ATI control panel. That way, all progs displayed on this monitor should look right, not just PSP.
For anyone who isn't familiar with what I've described, the thing in PSP looks like this:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/gamma_adjustment.png
The idea is that you tweak the gamma until the centre part of each colour bar matches the side parts of the colour bar as close as possible. |
Post by jamesmc // May 2, 2006, 7:08am
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I prefer CRT versus LCD. That move and you lose view thing always bothered me. Plus, if you use two CRT's, then you can dual view easily which is always handy.
I have a computer table I built myself, with an upper bench area just for monitors, so space is not a problem on my desktop. Have the drawings somewhere on a mini floppy disk(yeah I know, but I keep everything.) :D |
Post by Alien // May 2, 2006, 7:15am
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Alien
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Plus, if you use two CRT's, then you can dual view easily which is always handy.
You can dual view with any combination [2x CRT, 2x LCD, or 1 of each], what type of display it is [CRT or LCD] doesn't have any affect on the ability to use 2 at the same time. |
Post by jamesmc // May 2, 2006, 7:45am
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Couldn't find the floppy disk right away. :confused:
Here's a quickie drawing of my desk. I like it, lots of room. I have clips on the back to keep cords and things aligned and out of the way. The CPU boxes are on each side under the outside shelf of the round table part, so more foot room. :)
I was going to make the edges of the table with drop leaf, but got lazy and never did it. Was thinking if I moved to a corner of a room, it would be easier to place. I used bolts for assembly with hex insert heads. That way, a regular hex driver or allen wrench can be used to quickly assemble or re-assemble the computer desk. The small shelf in front served more purpose in the past, when floppy drives and external CD drives were necessary. I used a hole cut bit to make panels in the back of the shelf and used a pin hinge like on a electrial socket cover to cover up the holes in case they weren't being used. I made sure it was balanced on the top by temporarily putting 200 pounds of cinder blocks on the monitor shelf. It did not tip or sway, so it is quite nicely balanced. :) |
Post by jamesmc // May 2, 2006, 7:50am
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jamesmc
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You can dual view with any combination [2x CRT, 2x LCD, or 1 of each], what type of display it is [CRT or LCD] doesn't have any affect on the ability to use 2 at the same time.
Oh okay. I haven't looked at LCD displays in awhile. Last time I sat down in front of one in a start and started to move around, everything disappeared. The salesman told me it had a swivle base to rotate it if that happened. I said, "umm, no." :) |
Post by Alien // May 2, 2006, 8:55am
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Alien
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Oh okay. I haven't looked at LCD displays in awhile. Last time I sat down in front of one in a start and started to move around, everything disappeared. The salesman told me it had a swivle base to rotate it if that happened. I said, "umm, no." :)
Ahhh, yes, that would be the viewing angle you're talking about, something you can usually check up on any specific model if you do a bit of googling. :)
Take Splinters' recent aquisition, the Gateway FPD1960, for example:
I managed to find the specs for it here (http://www3.shopping.com/xPF-Gateway_FPD1960_19_Silver_LCD_Flat_Panel_Display), apparently it has max viewing angles of:
Horizontal: 140http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.png
Vertical: 135http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.png
Now, imagine a pyramid, with it's point touching the screen, & it's base facing away from the screen, with a 140http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.png angle between it's left & right sides [seen as if you were looking through the base of this imginary pyramid towards the point], & a 135http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.png angle between the top & bottom sides. Within those angles is your viewable area.
Or, to put it another way, if you were looking straight at the monitor, you could rotate it 70http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.png left or right, & 67.5http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.png up or down & still be able to see the image on the screen [although it's possible the vertical angle might not be equal, eg more +Z then -Z].
Splinters: having coming across this (http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/Gateway_FPD1960/4505-3174_16-31385153.html) whilst looking for it's specs, I'd make sure to give it a thorough testing with video & games before the 14days is up, as it sounds like some of that blockiness might actually be ghosting caused by a slow response time.
BTW, if anyone wants further reading on the subject I'm part-way through reading this article (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=1745344) which seems quite interesting. |
Post by chrono // May 2, 2006, 9:21am
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I agree that LCDs used to be bad, but if they were still as bad as you claim there wouldn't be as many happy LCD owners as there are.
Agreed. They were much worse. Unfortunately I've not found a single modern LCD that fails in some degree at more then 30-45 degrees from viewing center. As a simple viewing medium for tv and videos that wouldn't be much of a problem. But when it somes to color-balancing artwork on a computer level it's a total different story for me. |
Post by splinters // May 2, 2006, 9:40am
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splinters
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Thanks for the respomse guys. Really can't make my mind up about this monitor. It is much, much easier on the eyes after long periods of work but very bright and I am still messing with colour settings. Never tweaked gamma on my CRT so it is hard to tell if it was OK and this is not so...
Getting a DVI-D leda tommorow so we shall see what digital looks like like.
There is no obvious ghosting on games-played Quake 4 and the blockiness I referred to was on the static image as the level loads. I guess it just looks weird seeing it at a larger size.
I will continue my experiments...struggling to find another decent looking monitor (both display and cosmetically) at this price...:confused: |
Post by stoker // May 2, 2006, 9:57am
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stoker
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Getting a DVI-D leda tommorow so we shall see what digital looks like like.
Take it that is gonna only happen if I find it?:D
I have been lukin though:D :D :D :D |
Post by stoker // May 2, 2006, 10:02am
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stoker
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Is this the correct end (I dont really know much about DVI cables)
:D :D
Oh and it is like that at both ends of the cables.
(sorry about the crap image) |
Post by splinters // May 2, 2006, 10:16am
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splinters
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Hell, my spelling is rubbish tonight. Yes, Stoker-that is the one...:) |
Post by stoker // May 2, 2006, 10:20am
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stoker
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Ok..............Bring it tommorow then.............:D :D :D :D :D :D |
Post by Alien // May 2, 2006, 10:54am
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Alien
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Never tweaked gamma on my CRT so it is hard to tell if it was OK and this is not so...
If you have PSP you can do as I described above, if not I suppose it's possible that you could do it with that PNG I posted, but it's theoretically possible that it's created based on screen res or something, & as I'm only using 1024x768 ATM then maybe there'd be a difference [pure speculation on my part, no evidence to suggest that]. Otherwise, you could always grab the demo v. from Corel's site (http://www.corel.co.uk/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Corel3Uk/Downloads/Trials) & use that for calibrating. Remember to leave it at default & use your drivers' gamma setting to adjust instead [I'm assuming Nvidia have a gamma setting as well - I forget whether you're an ATI or Nvidia guy].
Getting a DVI-D lead tommorow so we shall see what digital looks like like.
That should [from what I've heard] show a bit of improvement.
There is no obvious ghosting on games-played Quake 4 and the blockiness I referred to was on the static image as the level loads. I guess it just looks weird seeing it at a larger size.
Ah, right - so it's just the gamma that's an issue?
I will continue my experiments...struggling to find another decent looking monitor (both display and cosmetically) at this price...:confused:
A 19" LCD with DVI for that price? Yeesh, that's pushing even my abilities to find a bargain [or at least 1 I'd be willing to say I thought was worth buying anyway]. ;)
Having DVI input does add to the price, if you already had a DVI 1 connected & only had 1 DVI port [& 1 analogue 15 pin D-sub] & you weren't considering getting a card with twin DVI ports in the near future then it wouldn't be such a bad thing to save a bit on a monitor without DVI input, assuming that was the only reason it was cheaper of course [as opposed to just being crap :)].
The thing is... how concerned are you about the possibility of dead pixels? AFAIK only 1 manufacturer [Xerox] offers any kind of guarantee [7 days] aginst it having any dead pixels when it arrives [others normally say they won't do anything about it unless it has X number of dead/faulty pixels - I honestly can't remember how many off the top of my head], & I only know of 1 place that offers a dead-pixel-checking service [adds £20 to the price tag but you're guaranteed against any dead pixels for the 1st 48 hours].
That leaves anywhere that offers some sort of no-quibble guarantee. The only 1 I knew of before you mentioned Staples was Argos. I checked Argos, & whilst they apparently have 2 19" LCDs, 1 is analogue only & the other has a response time of 25ms!
You mentioned Sony in an earlier post. I don't know if they're any better than anyone else, but on-paper the SDM-S95ARS (http://www.aria.co.uk/productinfocomm.asp?ID=22410&SpecialStatus=1) doesn't look too bad, but the price is a bit higher than you paid for the Gateway, & that's without the DPCS [if you wanted that]. If you're not so worried about dead pixels then it appears same monitor could be had for less (http://froogle.google.co.uk/froogle_cluster?pid=2091358080564400963&oid=14128621457000574490&btnG=Search+Froogle&q=SDM-S95ARS&scoring=p).
[there's also a black model, SDM-S95ARB]
BTW, I think this (http://www.aria.co.uk/tft-dead-pixel-info.asp) is the standard most monitor manufacturers/sellers use where the issue of dead pixels & refunds/replacements is concerned.
If dead pixels don't concern you quite so much then that does give you a bit more choice.... |
Post by splinters // May 2, 2006, 10:56am
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splinters
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While testing this monitor it got me thinking how, for some people, it is the least considered part of their PC. Often they look at processing power, RAM, graphics etc. but forget that if the monitor is naff-it is all in vain, at least with regards to your final artwork. Much like tyres really-last thing you consider when buying a car yet they are your only contact with the road and therefore the most important part.....weird eh?
With that in mind, if anyone cann suggest a good sub £200 TFT monitor available in the UK with DVI and 19" screen, I would be more than happy to investigate it before my trial period is up with the Gateway...;)
As I said earlier, DVI might help and it might need calibrating-anyone have a free monitor calibration program? |
Post by splinters // May 2, 2006, 11:02am
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splinters
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Thanks for help Alien-this sony looks OK;
http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=13472&GroupID=19 |
Post by Alien // May 2, 2006, 11:11am
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Alien
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As I said earlier, DVI might help and it might need calibrating-anyone have a free monitor calibration program?
I dunno about calibrating everything else, but if you follow my instructions in earlier post that'll get your gamma sorted
Thanks for help Alien-this sony looks OK;
http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=13472&GroupID=19
I thought you wanted 1 with DVI? & 16ms is a bit on the slow side. Personally I wouldn't consider 1 with a higher than 12ms response time. |
Post by hemulin // May 2, 2006, 11:13am
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Finally something your good at Stoker, hide-and-seek.
Alien - how come you seem to know so much about everything even vaguely computer orientated? |
Post by hemulin // May 2, 2006, 11:14am
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Ah yes Microdirect (another brilliant company), I missed that out on our top 5 computers sites list Alien :D |
Post by stoker // May 2, 2006, 11:32am
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Finally something your good at Stoker
What are you trying to say then ...............:cool: :cool:
;) |
Post by Alien // May 2, 2006, 11:54am
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Alien
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The little "lamps" have a high energy beam compared to the flourescence light emitted from the chemicals in the CRT hit by a beam, so you can use the TFT very well in a lightful surrounding, no problems with mirorring effects on the screen like on CRT. (To be more precise, the TFT has a powerful backlite, which you can compare to the lamp you use for photo negative scannings on a scanner as a shining through lamp an dlittle transistors inside the panel move some crystals to let the light through)
TFT backlights can fade over time too. They're also usually prohibitively expensive to replace if they're not covered by a guarantee [such that it often makes more sense to just get a new monitor]
But ts also needs a better grafics card than I have (FX5900) and an affordable one, ATI 1600 with 256MB costs 120 Euro. But before I'm not quite a lot more well trained with ts7 I won't invest into one of the last two mentioned items, can't effort them together in the moment anyway. Only reason that tells to act soon is the fact that the tax on goods will rise from first of January 2007 for 3%
If you're looking at graphics cards & price is an issue, & you can't think of any reason you'd need 1 that supports shader model 3.0 , then I'd actually go for an X800 GTO [make sure it has the O - I forget the exact difference at this precise moment, but the GT is not as good, & beside you probably wouldn't find any anyway :) ]. From what I've read the X800 is more powerful than the X1600. Ok, so the X1600 has some newer features, like the AVIVO technology which is [i]supposed to make on-screen images look better [I haven't actually seen the difference, so I'm just repeating what I've heard] & a few other things... but if the main thing you want it for is tS then they won't apply [AFAIK - Tomas is the 1 to ask about that I think]. Anyway, reason I mentioned the X800 is aside from being more powerful than the X1600 you might be able to get it cheaper as well [I don't read German, so you can do your own googling:p].
Alien - how come you seem to know so much about everything even vaguely computer orientated?
Actually there are several reasons: [in no particular order]
Plenty of time on my hands
I'm only 5 years younger than Splinters
Google :)
Ah yes Microdirect (another brilliant company), I missed that out on our top 5 computers sites list Alien :D
Ummm... it's possible I'm getting them mixed up with another company, but I think I saw somewhere they'd received a lot of bad feedback [you know when you use froogle or whatever you can see their rating, & then read individual comments, like on eBay].
<does a quick check>
Scratch that, I just looked in my favourites, knowing whoever it was I was thinking of was in there & that I'd remember as soon as I saw the name - the 1 I was thinking of was Misco [formerly known as Simply Computers]. As to Microdirect, I haven't had any experience with them as of yet. |
Post by frootee // May 2, 2006, 4:24pm
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Check out newegg.com. Great stuff cheap. I am not sure about overseas shipping, nor conversion of price to euros, but the stuff is pretty darn cheap!
Video card (what I am running on my 2nd computer, supersloth):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?N=2000380048+1305520549+1069609639 +1068109604+1067918889&Submit=ENE&SubCategory=48
Copy and paste the link. I know there's a way to setup this as a link but I'm a bit hungry at the moment and the food's a cookin...
Also, monitors: I think this may be the monitor Emma is referring to. I am eyeing it as well, waiting for a *One Day Sale* (5 ms refresh ... 399 american dollars... aw yeah!) :D http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
:D
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824001225 |
Post by Alien // May 3, 2006, 2:16am
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dam..., that´'s exactly the monitor but it's unbelievable cheap. 399$ is about 360 Euro ! ! !
Yeah, that works out to about ~£217, which is definiitely not bad for a monitor of that spec.
Is there possibly missing any tax or something that makes it so cheap ? or is it simply the effect of worldwide (economy) trading, taking as much as possible in every separate place :( :confused: :confused:
I don't know what the situation is in Germany, but here in the UK you're supposed to pay VAT [17.5% in the UK], & probably some sort of import tax as well [basically your package gets held to ransom either by Customs or the post office until you cough up the extra cash, though sometimes they'll turn a blind-eye if you don't import stuff too often]. Just the VAT would raise the price to £255, & that's before delivery & any sort of import tax. |
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