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Need advice re: 6.6 or 7
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Need advice re: 6.6 or 7 // Roundtable
Post by judee3d // Feb 11, 2006, 7:59am
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judee3d
Total Posts: 12
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Hi all!
I'm needing some advice here. I bought TrueSpace 6.6 last summer in a deal with all plugins and tutorials included, plus a free upgrade to TS 7, which I received when it came out.
Problem is, I got distracted by some other programs (Poser Daz, etc) and never did pick up my TS 6.6, figuring I'd eventually get around to it.
My delimma now is, whether to start with 6.6, learn it, then move on to 7, or whether it would be better to start in fresh with 7, so as not to get used to the older format of 6. But that seems like it would be such a waste of the courses I purchased. In fact, the reason I originally chose TrusSpace was the availability of all of the video courses for learning.
So, couple of questions here - how valuable are those courses in reference to TS 7? Is much of the information still valid, or will they just confuse me? I did purchase the new Getting Started Course for TS7, but there is so much more information in the bundle of 6.6 courses - I hate to waste it. Can they still be followed fairly easily in 7 if I have not yet gotten used to and understood 6? Would you suggest I learn 6 first, then move to 7?
I've seen talk about 7 having 2 separate interfaces - one for the old style (6.6) and another for TS7 - but I think I saw something about that interface not yet handling certain things and so people still have to use the other interface for certain actions?
Anyway, I'm asking you pros - what do you think? Is the interface so completely different that learning 6.6 first will confuse me in the long run? Or, is 7 so much better that I should go ahead and jump in? And what about all those courses?
Oh while I'm asking, is TS7 backward compatible with all of the plugins that came with 6.6?
Thanks for any advice!
judee3d :o |
Post by splinters // Feb 11, 2006, 8:19am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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All plug ins I have tried are compatible.
Personally I would dive straight into TS7 and stick with the full layout model side while you learn the UI. Most of the courses will still be relevant although the icons may look a little different and be in a slightly different place. As your confidence grows try out the other features but be sure to explore; there is much more power in TS7 than TS6.6. HDRI feature is a godsend...:) |
Post by Paul Boland // Feb 11, 2006, 9:29am
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Paul Boland
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I'm working with TrueSpace 5.1 so I don't have version 6.6 or 7, but my advice is to go straight into version 7. I was a long time user of TrueSpace 2 and when I eventually moved up to version 5, it was a complete system shock. I actually stuck with version 2 for a while after getting version 5, till I was happy to work in version 5. So why start out in version 6.6 and then suffer a simular shock when you move over to version 7 which has a new interface and tools to play it. Just jump into version 7 and start learning there. |
Post by chrono // Feb 11, 2006, 9:37am
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chrono
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Well since TS7 is basically still in BETA and the tooling is virtually unchanged I would work in 6.6 while slowly going through the manual. Take about a month or 3 to fully explore it and then start working with 7.
Build your foundation in 6.6 and then move to 7. |
Post by daybe // Feb 11, 2006, 10:08am
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daybe
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I don't think I would call TS 7 a beta, sure some things are a work in progress but definitley not beta, anyways that aside, I would start with TS7 myself, as the icons and interface has changed quite a bit even in the model view so you would find yourself finding your way twice first TS6 then TS7, this will also let you get fimilar with the player side at the same time as there are some neat tools in it as well such as the 3d recorder and the soft selection tools as well as some of the new PE tools.
HTH |
Post by splinters // Feb 11, 2006, 10:25am
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splinters
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Well since TS7 is basically still in BETA and the tooling is virtually unchanged I would work in 6.6 while slowly going through the manual.
TS is not Beta and has been released in download form and is currently being readied for the boxed version due any time. While there are features still to come in TS7.1, version 7.0 is not actually a beta. Like previous versions any bugs found would be addressed in a patch. |
Post by Naes3d // Feb 11, 2006, 2:43pm
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Naes3d
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Go with the majority on this one. Dive into tS7. |
Post by judee3d // Feb 13, 2006, 5:17am
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judee3d
Total Posts: 12
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Thanks all for the advice! I have to admit it makes sense - and I imagine all of those other tutorials will be helpful for different kinds of modeling, etc. as was mentioned above, maybe a few icons, etc have changed, but the procedures themselves will not be that different.
Heh, now that I have made that decision, no excuses, huh? :D
Oh ps - does TS7 come with all of the materials, etc that are in 6.6 (and of course new ones). I'm asking to see if I should wait to uninstall TS6, in case there are any mat files or whatever other kinds of files, objs, etc that are TS native that I might want to transfer over into 7. No point in having both programs on my pc at the same time. But I don't want to miss any goodies! |
Post by splinters // Feb 20, 2006, 2:51pm
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splinters
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I would advise copying all your materials, scenes and shaders etc. out of TS6 before unintalling. Alternatively, install TS7 then copy over from TS6 anything you need although most shaders and libraries are intact from TS6 as far as I can see..:) |
Post by e-graffiti // Feb 20, 2006, 5:24pm
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e-graffiti
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Get TS 7 for its "new" features but I would suggest that you leave your TS 6.6 installed as my experience with TS 7 is that some plugins are not 100% compatible ( I still get "the server threw an exception" error when using the flash plugin, then the plugin will crash!). Basic shaders between the two programs dont work the same, try applying the "classic" BrickWall material to an object in TS7, "save as" a TS 6.6 scene and open it in TS 6.6, no material will be applied you will only have the object. Since all plugins dont work you may find that you need TS6.6 to get the plugin to work properly. You will probably get through the courses quicker if you use a pre TS 7 release. Happy TrueSpacing...:) |
Post by splinters // Feb 21, 2006, 1:57pm
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splinters
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I believe another thread has a list of compatible plug ins for TS7. So far I have had no problems with any on mine....touch wood.
For me, at least, I am happy that Simbionts and alphahair.tsx work. The rest are bonuses...:o |
Post by rj0 // Feb 21, 2006, 7:58pm
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rj0
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Splinters,
Sounds like your tS plugins thread should get a 'sticky' status somehow.
rj |
Post by splinters // Feb 21, 2006, 10:42pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Splinters,
Sounds like your tS plugins thread should get a 'sticky' status somehow.
rj
Not my thread rj0. It is here though;
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=16 |
Post by andy_k // Mar 3, 2006, 2:30pm
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andy_k
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I don't think I would call TS 7 a beta, sure some things are a work in progress but definitley not beta, anyways that aside, I would start with TS7 myself, as the icons and interface has changed quite a bit even in the model view so you would find yourself finding your way twice first TS6 then TS7, this will also let you get fimilar with the player side at the same time as there are some neat tools in it as well such as the 3d recorder and the soft selection tools as well as some of the new PE tools.
HTH
what would you call something that isn't actually finished, doesn't have all the functionality it's supposed to have, still has more features to be added that were originally going to be part of the program and doesn't fully support the render engines which are being sold to work with it then?
Whether it's on sale or not that sounds like a beta to me :)
If I bought a car I wouldn't expect to wait an unspecified time to get the wheels.
Andy |
Post by Vizu // Mar 3, 2006, 3:05pm
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Vizu
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i agree with andy but i already own 7 and wait for the upgrades .... |
Post by stan // Mar 3, 2006, 4:00pm
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stan
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sadly, I agree with Andy too..:( |
Post by daybe // Mar 3, 2006, 5:41pm
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daybe
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Andy I am honored you chosen to quote me in your first post here. ;)
So here are my thoughts. TS7 is to me the modeller part, which to me is complete. The player is what I would call a teaser but is quite functionable and is the future of TS. The player side capable of doing some cool things and will get better as time goes on, but that doesn't mean TS 7 is a beta because of that. Not the first time a company has done this. As you know software developers are always adding more features to their products hence photoshop 6, 7 and so on.
As far as Vray goes, this is an option and was stated as such when it was introduced so I would consider this as an addition to TS 7 and not actually part of the main program. This was sold at a discount to those who were interested at the time knowing full well that it would be released after TS7. Sure it will have to be intergrated and added to the code but that is to be expected.
Just my 2 cents. |
Post by andy_k // Mar 4, 2006, 1:20pm
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funny thing is Daybe, the way we've been led to believe things were meant to work was that the player was ts7 and the modeller was ts6 because all of the tools aren't yet available in the player - in other words it's not finished yet.
Quite simply trueSpace 7 isn't finished. The servers to support it aren't fully set up, Vray isn't fully integrated etc etc.
Yet like lemmings (I realise this isn't an accurate analogy as lemmings don't actually jump off cliffs) people are buying the software and accepting Caligari's promise that they'll fix it sometime in the future.
Sorry folks, but I must point out that software companies have in the past been known to break their promises or forget that they ever made them :)
Daybe, to compare trueSpace7 to Photoshop is strange for someone such as yourself. If Adobe released a version of their software with only partial functionality I wonder if you'd be as relaxed about something you'd shared in the development of :)
Anyone else think it's strange that there is no demo available yet?
Andy |
Post by daybe // Mar 4, 2006, 1:44pm
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daybe
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No disrespect Andy as I have always held you and your work in high regard, but I guess we can say we agree to disagree and there will be camps on both sides. You say tobeta I say tomato :D That said it's up to people like you to keep software companies on their toes and to make sure they do deliver on their promises.
I agree that my use of Photshop as an example my have not been the best choice perhaps I should have said Microsoft.;)
And to you point I really wish there was a demo available for people to try out. |
Post by hultek43 // Mar 4, 2006, 1:46pm
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hultek43
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A program as complex as a 3D modeling and animation package takes time to develop and refine. I need to be reassured that all the features which are advertised will work as they are portrayed to. It has been several years in the making of this newest release but I see posts complaining about 'things' that still do not work as they are supposed to.:confused: I don't believe a 'new look' was all that was intended. |
Post by SteveBe // Mar 4, 2006, 4:11pm
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SteveBe
Total Posts: 282
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Andy, I have to say that your only partly right. Your analogy to a car is somewhat flawed.
tS7 comes with wheels and they are rotating correctly and in my experience so far, they are
ballanced fairly well. I think a more fare comparison would be to a tool, say a Swiss Army Knife.
That’s not to say there isn’t room for improvement but if Caiigari wants to expand their user
base, (as I’m sure they do), they will improve on the new core.
I look at it this way, my upgrading was a show of support for the direction Caligari has
taken to improve their software. I’m reasonably sure that four years of development
has been rather costly. So in a way, even though everything I’ve hoped for, (or imagined),
may not be fully implemented, the program does work as advertised and I can see the potential.
Here’s another way I look at it, as a user of tS6.6, if Caligari or a third party developer came up with a
plug-in or add-on with the new functionality of tS7 for the upgrade price I was offered, I would of
jumped at it in a heartbeat, and felt I received more than a bargain!
I think that the most important thing Caligari can do now is to keep as close as possible to a tight
time-frame with improvements and bug fixes. It’s my personal opinion that the bones/annimation
camp gets a little too much attention, but that’s mostly due to the fact stills are what is important
to my work and I realize that animation is important to the software.
Now if I can just get truePlay and get it to my clients, then I can show them what a truly unique
and wonderful piece of software tS7 is! |
Post by andy_k // Mar 4, 2006, 4:30pm
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andy_k
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but the wheels are hardly balanced are they?
Correct me if I'm wrong here....
You don't have truePlay which was supposed to be part of the program, you don't have fully functional modelling tools as they haven't been fully integrated yet, you don't have access to all the functions of one of the render engines even if it was sold at a discount, you don't have shared space working properly for whatever reason.
So far from what I have read there is no time frame from Caligari and it's beginning to sound all too familiar. Stuff we were promised for ts5 was put off until ts6 and then never arrived at all (LW enabled status was just one example). Fixes we were promised for various versions of the software never materialised and all the time we were being promised greater things to come. Well, now it seems they've arrived and it's the same old story - as you may gather I'm less than impressed with what I have seen, spoke about with unbiased users and read so far.
How does that old song by the Who go?
"I Won't get fooled again!"
Andy
Here's a bit of a revelation for you - there are some 3D packages on sale that actually do exactly what they claim to do :) |
Post by SteveBe // Mar 4, 2006, 5:34pm
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SteveBe
Total Posts: 282
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After 50 years of living on this planet, there's still a part of me that wants to
believe that people care about people. So if that makes me a fool, then so be it.:p
Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong here....
You don't have truePlay which was supposed to be part of the program,
you don't have fully functional modelling tools as they haven't been fully integrated yet,
you don't have access to all the functions of one of the render engines even if it was sold
at a discount, you don't have shared space working properly for whatever reason.
No I don't have truePlay, which is a little bit of a put-off, but I'm willing to wait
a little longer (like I have a choice).
No the player modeling tools aren't fully implemented, but all original modeling tools are and player
adds to SDS at this time. I will say though, the player DX9 space is truly a joy to work in.
I didn’t go for the Vray option as one piece of new tech is enough for me at this time. This also helps
me to decide if I want it in the future by seeing what Caligari has done with tS7 even if it will cost
me $100 more for being somewhat cautious.
I do have access to shared space and it seems to be working fine for me.
As for your revelation, I do have the single horned beast ( I think you know what I mean)
and other 3D software, so I must say that I don’t live in a vacuum.
My point is that I see potential, now it’s up to Caligari live up to it, which I’m very much hoping
they do. |
Post by andy_k // Mar 5, 2006, 12:09am
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andy_k
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I see potential as well, in fact I've seen potential since the release of the first beta If I were participating in some low cost or free open source project then I would find this sort of release acceptable but I'm not. My point is when I buy commercial software I'm not buying potential or buying into the idea I'm paying for the "finished" article or at least something which is as near to fully functional as you can get.
There is no other field of retail where customers are treated with such disdain. Imagine going down to your local electrical superstore to buy a new fridge/freezer only to be told "now you've bought it we'll be honest with you, the freezer bit doesn't actually work yet but we are working on it and will get yours going as soon as possible but we aren't being held to any particular dates. Oh, and the fridge side which is supposed to have lots of really cool features hasn't really got all of thoise features just yet but we are working on that as well but on the plus side it does keep things cold so it does work"
Would you buy that fridge?
I'm not trying to criticise trueSpace 7 I think that once it's finished it will be a superb piece of software but I'm criticising the way it's being sold and the way that so many users have become so used to this happeneing they are just rolling over and accepting it.
Andy |
Post by chrono // Mar 5, 2006, 2:38am
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I'm not trying to criticise trueSpace 7 I think that once it's finished it will be a superb piece of software but I'm criticising the way it's being sold and the way that so many users have become so used to this happeneing they are just rolling over and accepting it.
Andy
Potentially yes. However I live and work in the 'now', so potential is only a dream and wistful thinking. ;)
Anyways after seeing little to virtually no changes from 4.3-6.6, buying every version and continously being disillusioned, I left TS because I wasn't going to accept their lack of modernization anymore. Now it sits on my computer as a renderer and sometimes animation program, nothing more. |
Post by behzad // Mar 5, 2006, 4:04am
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I invested a little money into another software, I am not suppose to say the name, so I will respect that, anyways since purchasing it, oh by the way the price of half the money i could have spend on ts7 alone bought me two programs one for modeling the other is a full animation and rendering program with tons of features. Well enough of that, So far I got three major upgrades and the upgrades were fixes and extra features they added for FREE.
I am extremely happy with it, and I am not saying ts is bad, what I am saying is that support material and updates are slow and far between and usually cost.
This has turned me off and now I am onto something new. Time is money and I wished Caligari speed things up and it seems the 3d industry does not wait for anyone. |
Post by Délé // Mar 5, 2006, 4:06am
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Délé
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To be honest I can see points made on both sides. I think one important thing has gotten overlooked in the conversation though. Cost. If the cost of TS was as much as the big boys, I would certainly expect a much higher standard.
To me, it looks like Caligari is trying to make a pretty comprehensive program at a moderate cost. I certainly don't believe that Caligari is intentionally trying to put out less then the highest quality they can. I think it's probably a balancing of resources. If they charged as much as the big apps, they would probably have the resources to pull everything together more the way they'd like. I don't think Roman would have put so much thought and hard work into some of these very innovative designs if he wasn't really trying to provide a comprehensive 3d package. I think perhaps they just get a little tripped up at times as they try to make the most of the their limited resources which in turn keeps the cost of the package moderate. It can't be an easy task.
So I'm not saying there aren't things that need to be taken care of. There are some bugs that need to be squashed, and a few more things implemented before I can say that I'm 100% satisfied. And I am certainly looking forward to more stuff migrating to the player. Right now however, I am reasonably satisfied.
Also, if you remember not long ago, there were people that were about ready to lynch them if they didn't get TS7 out right away. Kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place I think.
Personally I believe that all things considered, Caligari has done pretty good job of putting a moderately priced comprehensive 3d package together. Is it perfect, well no. At this price they would take down all of the giants if they nailed everything spot on. There are some powerful new features and I think they're heading in the right direction though. |
Post by splinters // Mar 5, 2006, 6:07am
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splinters
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Reading these posts I find myself agreeing with many points made here. Andy K has had a great deal of experience with truespace and I believe had access to beta code as well. He is in a very good position to be objective about it. Beta tester can tend to be a little more 'protective' about it, sometimes because they have spent more time with it, sometimes because they may be aware of new features being planned and implemented right now.
Bottom line is, try it and see what you think-everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you are really serious about buying into TS7 then a demo is not that important-you could always use the 30 day money back guarantee if it is not suitable and that way you would have full access to all features.
I really do see both sides of the argument here.
The only thing that suprises me is that people actively take part in conversation who either have no experience of TS7 or have blatantly declared that they have no intention of using it. Doesn't really give reasoned and objective advice to the initial question; TS6.6 or TS7? |
Post by chrono // Mar 5, 2006, 11:50am
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Little reason to even try the demo or have experience with TS7 when the owner & developers state that the tooling is unchanged from 6.6 and it will be until 7.1-2 before changes happen.
And, Splinters, the beta testers aren't exactly 'protective' much more along the lines of zealots and more often tryants. Which I could TOTALLY understand if they were professional testers, but their not. |
Post by noko // Mar 5, 2006, 2:00pm
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hmmm, getting on topic, I recommend going straight to TS7. From my viewpoint it contains a number of items already that other programs will have or copy in the future.
(Vector discussion) TS has been in the works for many years, no surprise newer versions will have more stuff. People buying new cars usually turn around and buy another car eventually, maybe a year later. Many even rip out the stereo system and put something else in it, as well as many other items in the vehicle can get replaced as it is owned. Was the car incomplete when bought? Anyways, comparing a car to software is probably not the best comparison. If XSI, Max or Lightwave was perfect, the developers could retire, the other packages thrown in the garbage and all developers of 3d could find new careers. This is not the case with 3d software. It has a very long ways to go to catch up to the average automobile technology progress. I sure hope the other folks improve their software like Caligari has. So the bottom line, all 3d packages are incomplete :). |
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