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Ts Needs Cloth Simulation!!
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Ts Needs Cloth Simulation!! // Feature suggestions
Post by prodigy // Oct 25, 2006, 11:37am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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:jumpy:
CLOTH SIMULATION????
Thats very necesary at this point...
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: |
Post by splinters // Oct 25, 2006, 3:09pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Or we could just do it the old fashioned way...:rolleyes: |
Post by prodigy // Oct 26, 2006, 10:05am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Nice... a question.. what you use to make this sim cloth??
Can render with Vray without problems??
BUT.. we still need cloth simulator.... :( :( |
Post by Chester Desmond // Oct 26, 2006, 10:13am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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can Clothmotion be used in TS 7? |
Post by frank // Oct 26, 2006, 10:22am
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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I haven't tested the ClothMotion tSx within trueSpace7 Modeler side but I can say that you can save the vertex-animated cloth (poly object) from tS6.6 and load it into tS7 with no problems.
This was done using that method:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=94 |
Post by splinters // Oct 26, 2006, 10:36am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Nice... a question.. what you use to make this sim cloth??
Can render with Vray without problems??
BUT.. we still need cloth simulator.... :( :(
No simulation prodigy...just a nurb curve swept and divided and a few hours patiently pulling on vertices...:D
I tried clothmotion in 7.1...very unpredictable so I gave up. Not sure it is compatible. Applying SDS to the deformed mesh caused it to reset but maybe I was doing something wrong.
As for Vray...if you have the mesh in model side it should render ok in Vray. |
Post by Lethn // Oct 27, 2006, 6:01am
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Lethn
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ohh yes, curves, I actually accidentally discovered how to do cloth when I was fiddling around randomly with operations, you can make it look real nice once you master the way it scales and so on :D
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Treius123455/HallEntrance.jpg |
Post by nowherebrain // Nov 13, 2006, 4:13am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I was told that softbodies were being implemented and were reacting to each other along with the I.K. system...or it was in the 7.5 initial list or something......I definately saw/read it somewhere. |
Post by prodigy // Mar 1, 2007, 9:08am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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MMMM ... i dont know.
I think Water simulation and cloth simlations are esesntial, like a good particle system... |
Post by nowherebrain // Mar 3, 2007, 1:22pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I agree, but seeing how we have not seen anything about it(that is since the announcement) I would count it out until ver. 8.0. NOTE*(not a pointer, coders) I am not a Caligari rep..I believe it is coming, I just do not know when. |
Post by Docwolph // Apr 30, 2007, 1:24pm
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Docwolph
Total Posts: 20
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Mente Magica (http://www.mentemagica.com/) had a couple of plug-ins going for fluid sim and Cloth sim, DynaWave and DynaCloth respectively. DynaWave is still available though I don't know if it'll work in TS7.x and DynaCloth according to the site was never released commercially, though it do recall it was available through Caligari for a time. I'm probably wrong.
Both are very important to a good work and deemed required for higher level work. I'm frankly surprised that an effort was not made to update such plug-ins in time for trueSpace 7's arrival. I have several projects that will require these at some point.
Anyone have news on this at all. |
Post by nowherebrain // Apr 30, 2007, 3:56pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Not to my knowledge, as I stated earlier, it was mentioned once. Now it is as if we were talking about the dead(as in deathly silent). I would not hold my breath on it for ver. 7.5 but, I do believe it is coming. |
Post by jayr // May 1, 2007, 1:54am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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I'm not too hopeful we'll see it in 7.5 but seeing all the videos stressing interaction of boned characters and physics simulation i'm sure it's not too far off, it's probably next on the caligari to-do list, maybe 7.6 ;) |
Post by Docwolph // May 1, 2007, 10:06am
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Docwolph
Total Posts: 20
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One can hope. Cloth a fluid/wave sims are similar so we could expect them to come together or soonly after one another. |
Post by nowherebrain // May 1, 2007, 3:50pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I don't like that solving meathod..a solid/voxel...whatever is the only GOOD solution at this point...look at blender and or realflow.....I think coming up with a system that allows better dynamics for metaballs would be a not so bad solution(as far as quick and dirty) unfortunately they do not interact well with one another(physically)when they share the same membrane and they react well together when they dont.
If they could spawn on impact, change mass by distance(and other testers), and conform to a surface(to some degree), that would be a huge step in the right direction...
Furthermore, Imagine if you could blend textures via vertex maps. So long as you could assign other elements to it e.g. viscosity. You would then be able to animate and shade a water/oil mixture...nifty.
Anyway......yes ,I do want to see cloth, however,(another comma?? geeze) I do not want some second hand fluid hack(e.g.planar/non solid water). My idea is a first hand hack:p . |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 1, 2007, 5:29pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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By non-planar I assume you're talking about water pouring from a glass and not just waves in the ocean? If so, a particle approach using voxels would likely be appropriate (maybe a memory hog though). Metaballs are a good low-tech answer with obvious limitations. Essentially becomes a very sparsely populated "particle simulation" using metaball objects in place of a mass of finer particles.
There are a few ways to do cloth simulations. Simple "flag waving in the breeze" particle sims have been around for a while with plenty of examples that can be scripted. Self collision and collision with other objects makes the problem a bit harder.
If by cloth we really mean "clothes on a figure" that gets harder still. Not every piece of cloth is a square handkerchef and overhead for processing an arbitrary mesh might be somewhat daunting.
Obviously, cloth has been done for computer graphics so it is possible to accomplish.
Personally, I'd like the ability to create an animated ocean surface with wave patterns that can bend around the back side of objects such as islands and create wakes. Not sure Mente Magica water can do the former of the two.
Most of these would fall into the category of particle systems I believe. |
Post by nowherebrain // May 2, 2007, 2:50pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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By non-planar I assume you're talking about water pouring from a glass and not just waves in the ocean? If so, a particle approach using voxels would likely be appropriate (maybe a memory hog though). Metaballs are a good low-tech answer with obvious limitations. Essentially becomes a very sparsely populated "particle simulation" using metaball objects in place of a mass of finer particles.
yes...
We could use an adaptive amount based on some test branches...distance to view, distance from mass(self average)etc.. It would also help if the metaballs(not the membrain) themselves had some limited physical deformation(so they could bend, or flatten against a surface, but still maintain volume..set by "volume threshhold")
There are a few ways to do cloth simulations. Simple "flag waving in the breeze" particle sims have been around for a while with plenty of examples that can be scripted. Self collision and collision with other objects makes the problem a bit harder.
If by cloth we really mean "clothes on a figure" that gets harder still. Not every piece of cloth is a square handkerchef and overhead for processing an arbitrary mesh might be somewhat daunting.
Especially if you consider multiple cloth on cloth collision collisions.
Obviously, cloth has been done for computer graphics so it is possible to accomplish.
Personally, I'd like the ability to create an animated ocean surface with wave patterns that can bend around the back side of objects such as islands and create wakes. Not sure Mente Magica water can do the former of the two.
Most of these would fall into the category of particle systems I believe.
Mente Magica can not do this, though it can be faked using well placed collider objects in a bobbing motion...I do not recommend it though.
We will probably never have the "ideal" simulation for either...no package does..but for now(tS 8.0) I would like some form of cloth(first) and some fluid system(second). |
Post by Docwolph // May 4, 2007, 11:40am
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Docwolph
Total Posts: 20
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I would settle for updates of Cloth Motion and/or release of DynaCloth. A totally Caligari Cloth Sim might be the next whole number upgrade but I wouldn't mind it in the next point upgrade as long as it is at least as good as Cloth Motion.. |
Post by nowherebrain // May 4, 2007, 12:41pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I want better...and faster... If I had to choose beetween the two it would be better, hands down. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 4, 2007, 5:45pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Few would want otherwise... Have yet to hear someone say they wanted worse of any feature unless it was marked for realtime performance and even then they'd want the best they could get away with.
Been looking into cloth sims myself for quite a bit now. They're usually implemented as particles interconnected by simulated springs. Particles are often arranged in a quad pattern.
I'm thinking there might be a few things that can be done within the LE and script editor itself towards this goal. Not likely to be a very speedy solution but it might be something to try.
Maybe a cloth simulation script for a flag in the wind would be a good start. No time at the present for me to experiment but perhaps in a few weeks.
Glen |
Post by nowherebrain // May 5, 2007, 12:33pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I'm positive it is possible, but I find the LE confusing. off subject here, but if it used more common terms...like int, char, while, else.../0..etc etc..inside of the objects(capsule or whatever)..that would help me tremendously...maybe I am the problem though..making it more difficult than it really is....either way I would be working on it right now if I knew how..
And the speed versus realism thing...I do, do a lot of realtime..but sometimes time is what costs...anyway...blah blah blah |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 6, 2007, 2:04pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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From what I can tell with the scripting engine variable declaration is implicit. Just make up a name and assign it the type of value that you want it to hold.
-Jack. |
Post by Burnart // May 6, 2007, 2:05pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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There is a lot in Poser which is pretty cheesy and limited but I think that is to do with the market they aim at. They do however have reasonably good cloth sim and hair implementation and they have had it since v5 - (4 years?). Sigh .... hair is due to arrive (today!) in tS7.5 I'd be happy if I knew cloth was on target for tS8 - I'd start saving today.
(Hey just noticed 100 posts - I'm now a senior member - only took about 15 months!) |
Post by nowherebrain // May 6, 2007, 3:41pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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From what I can tell with the scripting engine variable declaration is implicit. Just make up a name and assign it the type of value that you want it to hold.
-Jack.
I think you are right, I'm just not really liking the idea of learning more programming at the moment...I will, it's inevitable, I just make a lot of mistakes when I switch between languages...since I'm a beginner in the first place. I'm ok with setting up a matrix for a mesh etc...calling a function using some trig and vector maths, but I start to have issues when things like the mesh changes the # of verts etc(re-calc matrix in an array or whatever)...I get things right on occasion...but normally I do not. That and a lot of simple syntax errors. Any way I should start brushing up on this... |
Post by nowherebrain // May 6, 2007, 3:42pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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There is a lot in Poser which is pretty cheesy and limited but I think that is to do with the market they aim at. They do however have reasonably good cloth sim and hair implementation and they have had it since v5 - (4 years?). Sigh .... hair is due to arrive (today!) in tS7.5 I'd be happy if I knew cloth was on target for tS8 - I'd start saving today.
(Hey just noticed 100 posts - I'm now a senior member - only took about 15 months!)
Kudos! Try and catch splinters... |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 6, 2007, 7:28pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I'm an old school C guy myself. Learned it when I was 8 years old on an 8088 processor and I find the lack of structure in these new fangled scripting languages frustrating because it's hard to define anything with precision. Too much relying on the real-time code interpreter to guess what you really meant.... that and not enough control to really get things done simply and efficiently.
Java script isn't too different from C++ and I've done a bit of work in VB so I understand the Variant data type... and overall it's not that unfamiliar. I'm planning to move to C# now anyway so guess I just gotta get used to it.
LOL I guess the proof that I'm a dinosaur is that long after everyone else moved to coding for Windows, I was still using DJGPP to make Dos32 executables... *sigh* DirectX is a mess, but with the move to 3D it's not like we need direct access to the video card memory buffers anymore... ;p
Edit: Oh yeah, almost forgot. Congrats on getting to 100 posts Burnart! You can now set your title to anything that floats your boat. :D Like "I rule you" or "wish I was ProTeam..." or "can I be a Beta Tester too?" I'm sure you can come up with something cool, of course "Senior Member" always has a nice ring to it.... cept some of us are getting up there in age.... hmm..... :p
-Jack. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 6, 2007, 7:51pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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lol. I wasn't so much suggesting that folks had to learn to program as much as I was just thinking that it's now quite possible to push the envelope with ever increasing possibilities due to the mere existence of scripting bricks. Maybe that cloth sim might not be so far out of reach after all.
I'm betting if someone could make a simple cloth sim using a script that folks would spend the effort required to at least check it out (which has more to do with linking up or pushing buttons on scripts than writing them). It may not suit their specific application but hey, why not dream up a new use? :)
Not a substitute for a real tool, of course, but it's nice to know there's a reachable way to tackle things for those with the urge to explore off the beaten path. |
Post by Burnart // May 6, 2007, 8:02pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Oh yeah, almost forgot. Congrats on getting to 100 posts Burnart! You can now set your title to anything that floats your boat. :D Like "I rule you" or "wish I was ProTeam..." or "can I be a Beta Tester too?" I'm sure you can come up with something cool, of course "Senior Member" always has a nice ring to it.... cept some of us are getting up there in age.... hmm..... :p
-Jack.
How about, "Emperor of Australia"? - think anyone would notice?
Back to cloth - all this programming stuff is beyond me - just add it to the list of things I should have learnt a long time ago. The ClothMotion plugin from CK worked pretty well although it needed to be refined a bit more - and updated for use in later versions of ts and subdiv. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 6, 2007, 9:08pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Heh, fortunately I've stayed with proTeam since I picked up a ProTeam + Packs + ts6 steal (er um deal ;)) back a few years ago, so it was pretty easy for me to pick my title. If I wasn't proTeam, I'd probably have to come up with something catchy like "He-who-talks-much-but-renders-little" or some such... ;)
Fortunately you can change titles as often as you want so it's not as tough as coming up with a username... heh, I finally gave up on that one...
I agree with Prof K, as far as the user is concerned, a good script implementation should just a matter of selecting the object to be deformed, setting some parameters, and clicking start.
As far as implementation goes, I think a per vertex solution treating the verts as particles would be simplest. Shape cohesion could be maintained by treating the edges between vertexes as mathematical springs with variable stretchiness. A spline based solution might give better animation results, though... Although a stiffness parameter providing a resistance to change in angle might allow a less angular and very simple cloth simulation.
A basic iterative gravity (and wind w/ out fluid dynamics) simulation could be implemented fairly simply I think once a polygon collision method was worked out, but tS has a fairly sophisticated physics system Workspace side so it seems like it should really be something directly integrated into the physics system.
-Jack. |
Post by Asem // May 6, 2007, 10:09pm
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Asem
Total Posts: 255
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with sripting in ts it gets really fustrating when you are not sure what
variables it can possibly take. basically the jsript doesnt bug me but mostly that i didnt feel like there was enough documentation. sorry if its not clear im typing on a cell phone my only means of internet at the moment. |
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