August 2008 MMC Challenge - Comments

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August 2008 MMC Challenge - Comments // Monthly Modeling Contest

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Post by kena // Aug 1, 2008, 7:10am

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Put your comments here.

With so many new people joining the family, I hope we get more entries than last month.

So come on in and join the fun!


This is my first time running a Challenge, so be gentle with me. ;)

Post by MikeJoel // Aug 1, 2008, 9:01am

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Are you allowed to use models you have previously created to help fill out the scene?

Post by trueSpaced // Aug 1, 2008, 10:52am

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I might join this one, but I'm kinda working on a project that'll take about a month for me and with school starting up soon....:rolleyes:

-TrueSpaced:banana:

Post by kena // Aug 1, 2008, 11:50am

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Are you allowed to use models you have previously created to help fill out the scene?


I would say that it's ok, as long as the models are not part of your castle.

Maybe windows and doors? but not turrets, walls, etc.


What do you guys think?

Post by Dragneye // Aug 1, 2008, 12:34pm

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Just my opinion but if one has to re-do something from scratch, they now have the added advantage of past knowledge, and maybe can try making it using a more effective or efficient technique, making the same thing faster and/or better.

Good luck to everyone on this. Good subject kena :)

I'm not sayin' anything about entering yet because I have a ton of projects that I have to finish already, and on some of them, people are waitin ;)

Post by trueSpaced // Aug 1, 2008, 6:30pm

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I would say that it's ok, as long as the models are not part of your castle.
Maybe windows and doors? but not turrets, walls, etc.

What do you guys think?

Well, I think it depends.. If you have something complicated like a tree, I wouldn't think that should be allowed, but idk.. It may be safer to say no previous objects, but I'm not the one making the rules lol. Can you give us an example Mike?

-TrueSpaced:banana:

Post by MikeJoel // Aug 2, 2008, 2:11pm

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Well I was thinking like animals and such to put in the scene?


Also since Im asking. It is ok to use models that are auto generated (such as the plantstudio)?


Thanks

Post by rjeff // Aug 2, 2008, 6:05pm

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Ya know Mike I have ponderd this very thing..IMHO if the plants are there for detail and are not the main focus I see no reason not..heck you have to use pre generated cubes and stuff to make your scene...

Post by kena // Aug 2, 2008, 6:18pm

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I would say plants and animals are ok - but I will leave it to the rest of you to decide.

Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 2, 2008, 7:45pm

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I'd be against including any pre-made content. I mean come on you guys got a month (or more sometimes!) to make the models and it's a modeling challenge. Spend one of the days modeling a tree or plant if you need one. That's part of the learning for the challenge.

Post by noko // Aug 2, 2008, 9:10pm

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Plus trees and plants can be faked :p with alpha masks. Now I am wondering if this can be an animation or combination of image and secondary animation?

Post by MikeJoel // Aug 3, 2008, 4:38am

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My question doesn't apply to my entry anymore.


But to just point out something I think is a little odd if it is strongly felt that no premade content should be used....

I looked over past entries and it appears from the conversation around them that some premade content was used in them. I won't point out specific ones since I don't want people thinking I am singling them out. I am not meaning to argue a point or get anyone upset... I'm just saying it appears that it has been used before.


Does "pre-made" apply to models created using scripting applications? Such as plantstudio (in which you specify aspects and it generates a plant)? If so wouldn't this prevent the use of "hair" scripts?

If so then I seem to be misunderstanding the rules where it is mentioned to list all the applications used in modeling. Meaning I had assumed that other applications were allowed.


But like I said, none of this really will apply to my entery since what I have settled on will require me to make all the people and so I might as well make all the animals in the scene. I would prefer to allow plantstudio to generate my plants but if this agreed to be unacceptable it is not a big problem.


Like I said, I don't want to turn this into any kind of argument... Lets enjoy modeling.

Post by trueSpaced // Aug 3, 2008, 4:44am

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Okay, I have a project I started on July 30th that may work for this MMC... Can I still enter it? Here's the WIP thread I started about it:

http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=6030

I'll submit it two days early if I have to :)

-TrueSpaced:banana:

Post by MikeJoel // Aug 3, 2008, 6:06am

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Okay, I have a project I started on July 30th that may work for this MMC... Can I still enter it?

................

-TrueSpaced:banana:


I have no problem with it.


This is for fun right - I mean we get no money huh :D huh :D j/k

Post by trueSpaced // Aug 3, 2008, 10:36am

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I have no problem with it.

This is for fun right - I mean we get no money huh :D huh :D j/k

True that :) I think I need approval from Kena first though, don't I?

-TrueSpaced:banana:

Post by kena // Aug 3, 2008, 5:03pm

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you have approval!!!

and for pre-made content... the main subject has to be modeled in TS.... Other - supporting things can be pre-made. So long as they do not overshadow the main subject.

For instance: for the character modeling, you could model a farmer, and have a pre-made shovel, but not a pre-made head. the head is part of the farmer.

For this castle, I ask that you model your castle in TS and do not over-do trees, people, horses, etc... Think of pre-made as being like salt. Salt should be used to enhance the flavor of a food, not as a flavor itself.

Use your pre-made objects to enhance the overall mood, not to shift focus away from your challenge because you don't think the castle looks good enough.

Post by trueSpaced // Aug 3, 2008, 5:05pm

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Sweet :D Now if only I can finish it in time.... :rolleyes:

-TrueSpaced:banana:

Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 3, 2008, 5:20pm

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Kena's running the challenge this month so it's his rules.

My personal opinion is that *no* pre-made content (geometry based) be used and I weight my vote accordingly. Script generated content starts to get into a gray area. Hair, particles, and instancing is fine. With plants, if you're going to use an array or particle tool, then best would be to model the plants that are used by the the particle tool. Post the progress of modeling and texturing the plant in your WIP thread, etc.

It's supposed to be about having fun, but also improving and showing off our modeling skills. Generating geometry with a script isn't really modeling... :( Please show wires before render even if they are done in another program so that we can better evaluate how much was modeled and how much was script generated.

Post by trueBlue // Aug 3, 2008, 5:37pm

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I have voted on every entry in both contest since the begining. I judge my vote from the mesh only. I have only missed one winner so far which placed second. :)

Post by MikeJoel // Aug 3, 2008, 6:45pm

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Hmmm... I thought the idea was also to to have it judged for artistic content.


If it is to be judged simply on the fact of whether my castle's mesh is as complicated as someone else's mesh then I wouldn't see much use is continuing since my castle mesh is not very intricate at all as anyone who takes a look at my WIP can see- I was attempting to place a more "artistic" form to it (if you can call anything I do artistic :D )



Also.... I didn't mean to step on any toes when I said Truespaced's entry was fine with me. I only meant that as a contestant I wouldn't be botherd if Kena decided it was ok.


Mike

Post by trueBlue // Aug 3, 2008, 7:47pm

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I am only judging the modeling and not the rendering. :)

Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 3, 2008, 8:30pm

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There's a lot of things that go into judging a good work. :) Complicated and dense doesn't make a good mesh. It's more about the quality and efficiency of the geometry and how well it expresses the concept. The idea itself and the resulting image are important as well. A well executed and innovative idea will do better than a well executed but more mundane entry.

Post by kena // Aug 3, 2008, 9:21pm

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I am only judging the modeling and not the rendering. :)

So assuming that you voted for my entry last month, You voted for this? ;) Or was this the one that you didn't get right? :D

13816

Don't forget that from the beginning, the challenge has been stated as

The idea is to have a challenge that is geared more towards the complete 3D development cycle from concept through modeling, surfacing, lighting, rendering, and post process.

Post by Nez // Aug 3, 2008, 10:19pm

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Kena - I recalled that too; my recollection that part of the point of the MMC was to allow for consideration of more than just the mesh, i.e. part of the idea was for us to put more effort into the texturing, lighting, rendering etc - and for that to be considered in the voting. Wheras the SMC is supposed to be judged on the merits of the modelling effort rather than the presentation (although the latter may sway voting in some cases).


In fairness, voting on this kind of thing is always going to be interseting as every voter will be working from different criteria as to what they consider important - some may base it on the mesh as indicated above, others on the full composition or creative process or anywhere in between. To me, the whole effort matters for the MMC, including the actual concept/creativity, plus some effort to consider 'relative ability' and personal development - which is always going to be a bit subjective anyway....


With regards premade content, I'd personally be opposed to recycling anything that is going to be prominent in the scene but I don't have a problem with minor items that are effectively background or decoration - providing it's honestly stated that is the case. Scripted items etc - again, a bit more of a grey area - if used, it should be stated. At the end of the day, there are all sorts of tools available to us and it's useful to be able to show these in use in terms of what they can do, as this is potentially 'educating' others as to options they may be able to exploit another time. To take a very hard line on these things would start to infer that some plugins or tools such as array tools (or greeble tools for example) mean that you are 'cheating' by getting the program(s) to do stuff for you, which I think is taking it a bit far...


Best approach in my book is to be open about what tools/techniques you are using and if in doubt canvas opinion as to whether a method is appropriate (which has happened in the past). Not all of us can afford to spend a day modelling a tree for example - and if it's only going to appear in the background why bother? Spend the time/effort where it matters most...

Post by kena // Aug 4, 2008, 5:06am

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A very good way to state it Nez. exactly what I've been trying to convey. :D


Have a banana!


:banana:

Post by Nez // Aug 4, 2008, 6:27am

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Thanks, I'm feeling a bit peckish after a dull day in the office :D


Cool new challenge by the way, not sure I'm going to have the time this month unfortunately, but we'll see. Wanted to get another SMC entry in too, but just too much to do...

Post by rjeff // Aug 4, 2008, 6:54am

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Here is my take on it. I see no problem in using any software to make scene helpers such as trees and shurbs. In essence you are creating the tree if you tweak it to your liking just like you use TS to make your model. I do have issues with pre made models that you buy.

Post by theuns // Aug 4, 2008, 9:13pm

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I'd be against including any pre-made content. I mean come on you guys got a month (or more sometimes!) to make the models and it's a modeling challenge. Spend one of the days modeling a tree or plant if you need one. That's part of the learning for the challenge.


I tend to agree with Jack, this is a "trueSpace" modeling content, not a general one like CGSociety where you can use anything...


Besides, a lot of people don't have access to extra content or programs like Vue or Bryce to create extra content.


I would also prefer it to be trueSpace modeled only, this way the judges can judge on the actual trueSpace skills used in the final image and not general artwork of any kind...

Post by rjeff // Aug 5, 2008, 2:36am

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But there are free tree generator programs you can find. That is what I use when not rendering in Bryce. http://dryad.stanford.edu/ ... This is one that works great and is free. And here is a older version as well that is free http://www.treegenerator.com/download.htm ... They also have version 2 out..that is not free. I agree with you Jack about it being model constest..howerver trees and plants are very time consuming to make..when the focus needs to be on the model itself. So I think since there are free tree programs to have...we are no on the same playing field

Post by theuns // Aug 5, 2008, 4:31am

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Would be nice if there was a free trueSpace plugin to generate plants wouldn't it :) or even native inside it...


anyway, will try those links, rjeff


still think the competition should focus on tS modeling, but if generated objects want to be used as part of the scene, that's fine, as long as it isn't taken into account in the judging :)


Ps. To enter, we only start a WIP thread and post in the current MMC forum thread right? Just asking since I saw some kind of submission page in the Caligari gallery...
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