SMC #45 - Vacuum cleaner - comments

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SMC #45 - Vacuum cleaner - comments // Speed Model Challenge

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Post by Nez // Apr 15, 2009, 5:58am

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As per normal, please put your comments here and keep the 'challenge thread' for submitted entries.


I'll take the chance to remind folks here too that this time there is a special rule requiring the main render to be a 'clay render', which is a change from the normal rules. If this is a popular move, it can perhaps be adopted again for future challenges, but I guess we'll see how folks get on/react...:D


Bon chance as they say 'en francais'...

Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 6:26am

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Hmmm....You said that by painting the models with one gray color,instead of creating "jazzy renders" with multiple materials, will focus more on the modeling.
I consider strategically applying the materials in an appealing or artistic way is also a major part of the modeling process ! No bad intentions, but I also feel it is a waste of my precious time if I don't create a "jazzy render" in an artistic way.;)

Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 15, 2009, 7:20am

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Interesting. Haha, I think my enteries usually end up being clay renders anyway because I always run out of time. :p

Guess I'll have to throw my hat it. :D

Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 7:54am

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... please put your comments here and keep the 'challenge thread' for submitted entries.

LOL Jack !!!!:D I almost did the same thing you did !!!:D

Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 15, 2009, 8:10am

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Lol! Guess I should move the post. :o

Done.... Mwahahaha! :D

Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 15, 2009, 9:47am

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Lol! Guess I should move the post. :o

Done.... Mwahahaha! :D

LOL:D Do it again !!! The hand is quicker than the eye !
Can you move the Market that way?!!!

Post by Nez // Apr 15, 2009, 10:05pm

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Hmmm....You said that by painting the models with one gray color,instead of creating "jazzy renders" with multiple materials, will focus more on the modeling.

I consider strategically applying the materials in an appealing or artistic way is also a major part of the modeling process ! No bad intentions, but I also feel it is a waste of my precious time if I don't create a "jazzy render" in an artistic way.;)


You can of course create as many jazzy renders as you like of your object/scene - just not for submission to this SMC (you could still submit them to the Caligallery and other competitions anyway, so needn't be a waste of time either).


I'd debate your wording slightly - yours strategically applyling materials...is also a major part of the scene creation process (or 'artistic process' perhaps) but not technically 'modelling' in the sense meant by the challenge (i.e. poly/vertext 'pushing') unless you're crteating displacement maps - but I don't want an argument about that.


I'm not debating the fact that great textures make for a great render (and as you know I'm partial to shiny renders myself:rolleyes:) - what I want to see (and what others have repeatedly asked for in the past) is for the challenge to relate more specifically to modelling, so that's what I've suggested trying this time round. It's up to others to decide whether it's a successful approach or not...


Jack - hope you can find time to join in - just think, I've saved you a whole load of time by not needing to texture it, so you're more likely to be able to squeeze something in :D

Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 16, 2009, 2:04am

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To me Nez, the SMC and the MMC are what motivates me to create ! I'm not arguing your point...I understand it completely. But to me, models are meant to show off their clothes, and the SMC would seem kind of naked and less colorful without them !:)

Post by Nez // Apr 16, 2009, 2:07am

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Ha ha :D That's quite a nice way of putting it, and in fairness we certainly would have missed out on some very interesting entries on some of the previous challenges if this rule was imposed.


But I thought it was worth trying out for a change to see what folks think - so this may be the first 'naked' SMC!

Post by Breech Block // Apr 16, 2009, 2:59am

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Great topic Nez, have been wanting to do a vacuum cleaner for yonks but never found the time. And, after spending what seemed a lifetime UV mapping and texturing Snoopy v the Red Baron, your idea of clay rendering sounds great.

Post by Steinie // Apr 16, 2009, 5:29am

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My wife is in the room....What is a Vacuum Cleaner?...;):D

OK she left...

Nice subject and I like the new rule for this one. It keeps the Challenges fresh.

Post by prodigy // Apr 16, 2009, 10:38am

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I like this new rule, not sure as a permanent one.. but will be fun for sure.
:)

Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 16, 2009, 10:46am

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Yup. Got the reference image ready, so I'm going to see if I can whip my entry up tonight. :)

Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 16, 2009, 1:18pm

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Bah... failed. :o

LOL I'm so freakin' rusty I only got this much done in two hours, heh:
19452

I'll give it another go later. :p

Post by Georg // Apr 16, 2009, 8:32pm

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Never try to model something that is called RIDGID.

Jack, I like your base, the lid looks like a major challenge :)


The clay idea is nice, perhaps in the future a combo of wire, clay and texture.

I have an idea, hope to find the time.


georg

Post by Nez // Apr 16, 2009, 9:52pm

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Jack - you've obviously been spending too long working on plug-ins and stuff to get so out of practice!;)

(although we all appreciate your hard work of course:D)


Looks like a tough reference - as Georg said, what you've done looks good, and I'm sure you'll be able to crack something a bit faster having done a trial run...:cool:


Georg - look forward to seeing what you come up with, you usually manage something interesting and nicely done.

Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 16, 2009, 11:01pm

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Thanks guys, yeah haven't done much modeling these last few months. :o I'll give it another go in the evening. Worked on a fun concept for the YafaRay4tS test scene last night instead. :)

LOL, good one Mr. 3D! :D

Hmm... that reminds me wasn't there some kind of orbital space ship vacuum in the hitchicker's guide to the gallaxy art?

Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 16, 2009, 11:18pm

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...Yabba-Dabba-Doo !!!:D

Post by Nez // Apr 17, 2009, 12:34am

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Nice job Mr 3d - glad to see the creativity still lives in the SMC!

I've always enjoyed the potential for flexible 'interpretation' of the subject even though some haven't been so keen - the Razers challenge was a classic for that, for example... I was hoping someone would do a take on an 'organic' hoover...


My own image (not for formal submission) is currently rendering, (very slowly - skylight = bad idea it would seem!), so should be able to post that shortly....

Post by theuns // Apr 17, 2009, 1:37am

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...flexible 'interpretation' of the subject ....


Now that is right up my ally ;)


Q: can the clay at least be different colors to highlight certain geometry of the model for focus?


Honestly, I was also slightly dismayed at first with the NO TEXTURE rule but reading the comments it makes sense.


The other side of the coin of course is that with simple models you can create marvelous effects when used with texturing which you will only appreciate WITH a texture and the model would otherwise look bland and simplistic. In that sense, it might do the model injustice with no texturing on it, even simple texturing. A lot of geometry is 'projected' onto the model with textures as well and that contributes to the model design.


Its a 50/50 flip for and against. Perhaps a combination of clay and texture for those who want to? The combination would just give the viewer a better understanding for the intended 'effect' of the model and how the artist intended it to be used and displayed?


For me, modeling is not about how COMPLEX or DETAILED you can make a model, anybody can throw hours of meticulous time to add more and more detail to make it look fabulous but to make a great model is more about "using minimalistic amount of detail for best effect".


My 2c ;)


Ps. Might enter if I get a nice inspiration for a "flexible interpretation" ;P

Post by Nez // Apr 17, 2009, 2:07am

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Now that is right up my ally ;)


Q: can the clay at least be different colors to highlight certain geometry of the model for focus?


Honestly, I was also slightly dismayed at first with the NO TEXTURE rule but reading the comments it makes sense.


The other side of the coin of course is that with simple models you can create marvelous effects when used with texturing which you will only appreciate WITH a texture and the model would otherwise look bland and simplistic. In that sense, it might do the model injustice with no texturing on it, even simple texturing. A lot of geometry is 'projected' onto the model with textures as well and that contributes to the model design.


Its a 50/50 flip for and against. Perhaps a combination of clay and texture for those who want to? The combination would just give the viewer a better understanding for the intended 'effect' of the model and how the artist intended it to be used and displayed?


For me, modeling is not about how COMPLEX or DETAILED you can make a model, anybody can throw hours of meticulous time to add more and more detail to make it look fabulous but to make a great model is more about "using minimalistic amount of detail for best effect".


My 2c ;)


Ps. Might enter if I get a nice inspiration for a "flexible interpretation" ;P



I'm not disupting most of the points you make as I agree with the majority - modelling is not just about adding lots of detail, a simple model with a great texture can look much better than a complex model with sinmple textures etc...

BUT the rules of the SMC have always banged on about texturing being excluded from the timeframe and how the focus (and the juding) should be based on the modelling only. This clearly hasn't always totally been the case - and possibly shouldn't be? But if the challenge is to be focused on modelling techniques (e.g. SDS, nurbs, box modelling, etc etc) then one option is to remove the texturing as much as possible from the equation. It's been suggested that we submit wireframes only - I dind't want to go that far so thought the clay render was a moderate compromise - I can only wait and see how folks react to that.

Personally, I don't want to spend ages creating elaborate textures for an SMC model which is supopsed to be a speed challenge, that feels against the spirity of things.


If everyone wants to keep textures as part of the equation, I would suggest that texturing time needs to be considered within the overall challenge time-limit to retain a speed requirement (although the overall timelimit would probably then have to be increased to 3-4 hours?). Any longer and there's no point calling it a speed challenge... And that's what we've got the MMC for anyway...


As to your specific query on different colours - this is the first time I've actively produced a clay render so I'm not sure whether there are 'hard and fast' rules - the variation I said was OK where a trasnparent material can be used for showing internal details isn't always applied, for example.


I personally don't have an issue with several shades of grey being used to differentiate different parts/surfaces but in theory you should be trying to achieve that with your modelling where possible. That's my take anyway - anyone else care to comment?

Post by theuns // Apr 17, 2009, 2:23am

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Hmmm, I understand what you mean and it makes sense. Texturing definitely detracts from the actual model geometry.


I think it is a good idea then in the end and CLAY makes much more sense than wire frame because wire frame doesn't show you the overall shape and form of the model itself.


Then I'm all for it :) Good call to remove textures and only use clay ;)


Like you said, you could spend a week adding textures and add the design to the Caligari monthly and there is now as special Texturing competition in the Roundtable to enter and judge Texturing techniques.


Perhaps the MMC should also use this rule then? Although on a scene level with many models, the grey-scale only rule might not work so well. There perhaps you'll need different plain color shaders for different models.


Hmm, this actually gives a whole new dimension to the competition and will make artist think differently in modelling the models themselves...


Thanks Nez :)

Post by Nez // Apr 17, 2009, 2:47am

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heh, no worries!


I don't personally think the same rule should be applied to the MMC, as it was always somewhat misnamed - the whole point when Jack started it up was for a 'bigger' challenge than the SMC, where texturing, lighting, scene composition and even post-processing could be appropriately used to achieve a 'complete' finished piece, which I think appeals to a lot of folks, and can easily be entered into the Caligallery too!

Perhaps it should just be called the MC instead of MMC?:D

Post by theuns // Apr 17, 2009, 2:51am

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heh, no worries!


I don't personally think the same rule should be applied to the MMC, as it was always somewhat misnamed - the whole point when Jack started it up was for a 'bigger' challenge than the SMC, where texturing, lighting, scene composition and even post-processing could be appropriately used to achieve a 'complete' finished piece, which I think appeals to a lot of folks, and can easily be entered into the Caligallery too!

Perhaps it should just be called the MC instead of MMC?:D


Kewl :)


IC, then perhaps we should rename it? MSC for monthly scene competition?

Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 17, 2009, 4:42am

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...Perhaps in the future a combo of wire, clay and texture.


...If everyone wants to keep textures as part of the equation, I would suggest that texturing time needs to be considered within the overall challenge time-limit to retain a speed requirement (although the overall timelimit would probably then have to be increased to 3-4 hours?). Any longer and there's no point calling it a speed challenge.

These are my thoughts exactly !:)
Especially considering I usually model and texture at the same time and usually only spend an extra hour configuring my texture selections for a happy final presentation !

Post by TomG // Apr 17, 2009, 4:46am

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I do like the focus kept on modeling for the speed model, and the monthly one used for the broader issues where all elements come together. I think the best approach is this - whoever wins the speed model sets the rule. If Mr 3D wins he can say texturing is allowed this month. This time around the rule maker says clay renders only.


I think this is a good way forward as it lets the contest be a little different and fresh each time. I think having this month being clay render only is an interesting spin and I hope everyone keeps with it for this one. Next month, well let's see what the winner does and what rules they set!


HTH!

Tom

Post by theuns // Apr 17, 2009, 5:00am

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Very true... sounds good to me :)

Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 17, 2009, 7:57am

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Well Nez...I see you did find time for the SMC. I noticed how you sarcastically noted how you always like to support your own contest. Me....I'd rather give the contestants their options for creation, rather than possibly enter what they might have intended and steal their thunder. I also thought it was rather raw that someone in the past would enter several submissions in their own contest up for voting....and almost won. I also think it's raw that some people have 3 votes in their pocket, giving them a 3 to 1 voting advantage.
These are just my thoughts.......and it would also be nice if more people would step up to the challenge for this month's MMC;):)

Post by TomG // Apr 17, 2009, 8:46am

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The main aim of the contest is to have fun, not to get bogged down in rules and regulations. For those who don't enjoy the contest, then perhaps the contest is not for them. There is nothing stopping someone starting another separate contest, it's all community run, and then in that other contest the rules can be specified, and people can choose to join in one, other or both.


Again though, the aim is to have fun. There's no money or prizes involved, it's just meant to be about enjoying yourself, learning from your own work, learning from others and their different thoughts and approaches, and being part of a community of friends.


HTH!

Tom

Post by Mr. 3d // Apr 17, 2009, 8:53am

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Once again Tom, you're OFF topic. Why don't you come out and play ;)
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