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Workspace tools
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Workspace tools // Roundtable
Post by tatts // Mar 18, 2009, 7:57am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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I've have been playing around with the workspace sinse last night.
I'm begining to realize these tools are actually very nice, and I am really starting to like the feel of the workflow with it. I don't like the fact that the tools bars do not expand, but there are things about workspace that makes it easier to model with.
I've already mentioned that I really like the add loop tool. But a few other things that I have noticed about it that I actually really like about it are.
the add edge tool, I like that you can add an edge over a few edges without having to click on each edge individually as you do in the model side. I find that cuts out alot of time.
I also love the fact that you can do all your modeling in the 3d view with so much more ease than the model side. ( I actually created an entire model just using the 3d view) could never do that as easily with the model side.
Also another thing i really like, is the select all tool. the one where you can select an edge/vert or face. On the workspace side it is much easier to use as well. if you have two solid objects, and your editing one of them, the one that is not being edited remains solid where you can't see through it. but when you select the edge/vert/face you can actually see much more clear what your selecting even though the other object is solid and you can't see through it. (Not sure i explained that right)
In all, I think editing is just as easy as the model side if not easier. I can see myself using this side much more often now. I also love that manipulation tool as well. Soooo much easier to use then the frame tool on the model side..
:) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 18, 2009, 8:14am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Also handy is the TAB key to hide the widget when doing extrudes along the surface normal. ;)
Hotkeys really speed up the workflow. I'm finding that saves me a lot of time that I used to spend dragging through the icon bars. CRTL right click on an icon lets you assign a hotkey.
I'm using
V = vert
F = face
E = edge
L = loop
Shift L = face loop
Then I use CNTL+first letter of tool name for action tools:
CTRL+E = extrude
CTRL+P = ploydraw tool
CTRL+F = form face
CTRL+W = weld
CTRL+S = +SDS
CTRL+SHIFT+S = -SDS
etc...
One of the things that makes working in Workspace great is that I can turn up the opacity when doing mesh editing and work on geometry in 3D view without having to use the orthographic views unless I need to align something in a particular axis. :cool: |
Post by TomG // Mar 18, 2009, 8:33am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I also love new ways to change your selection - grow, shrink, invert, select all connected, select by material, etc. Great ways to be able to get the selections you want to work with.
Rotating around currently selected face / vertex etc is SO much better than rotating around the whole object like in Model side.
Soft select brush is awesome for working in a more organic way, nothing similar existed on Model side.
The tools are much nicer, I agree :) There isn't much that sends me back over to the Model side (and I'd love to see that reduced so I didn't need to go there at all!)
It is worth taking the time to try it out. It does feel different, and at first of course that will make you work a little slower than you are used to in Model side. But as you get used to those changes, you may find you are able to work faster, easier and more intuitively than was possible in the Model side.
Thanks for sharing!
Tom |
Post by Steinie // Mar 18, 2009, 9:21am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I do all my work with one single 3D view and workSpace tools. I use multiple cameras to switch views. The only time I use Modeler is for Obj. import/export or bending/lathe/path tools. I think the new tools are very good and looking forward to the rest of them. |
Post by tatts // Mar 19, 2009, 8:00am
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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well there is a lot that i have to learn on the workspace side, but so far i am really enjoying it. I keep learning new things as i go. I just reallized this morning that when you are using the point select tool,, to select multiple faces you just have to hold down ctrl and drag the cursor over each poly to select it. I was clicking each face all day yesturday LMAO. :D
However I found a terrible error with the direct x exporter on the workspace side. I've created a simple room and exported it, when I loaded the x model in fragmotion, the model was reversed, rather it was mirrored. but that's ok, the x exporter on the model side works fine. Also it crashed DBPro when I loaded it with that.
But in any case i definately like editing in workspace, It does'nt have all the tool bars as the model side and they don't open like in the model side, but I found that I don't even need to use the tool bar near as much as i do on the model side. so really it does'nt matter wether they open or not. it's actually very nice cause it makes the UI look so much cleaner anyway.
But over all the thing I love the most about workspace....IT IS FAR MORE STABLE. This is one thing I noticed from the start. I worked on a character yesturday for over 10 hrs, believe me when I say I am am pretty tired right now :) But anyway in that whole time, I think I might have saved my work once or twice.........I love it,,,,,on the model side I got pretty used to saving every 5 minutes or so just to prevent errors.
I have to agree with stenie when I say im deffinately looking forward to seeing where TS goes and hopefully it just keeps getting better. :) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 19, 2009, 8:36am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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The difference with the X export is likely due to Lefthanded vs. Righthanded coordinate systems. It'd be helpful to have a handedness toggle for X export so that it can more easily be integrated into the workflow of apps that use the other coordinate system.
Totally agree about the stability! When people say tS is crashing on them all the time, I wonder if they're using the same program?! I leave trueSpace open for days without crashing. The difference must be because I don't use Model-side at all anymore and I turn the bridge off... |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 19, 2009, 8:40am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Something you will find in the WS side that I think is pretty cool. If you have 2 monitors, set one of the monitors to a camera view, the other to the widget that controls the camera. This is a good way to work in a camera projection way. I use it all of the time, great technique for multiple camera shoots also.
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 19, 2009, 8:42am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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The Bridge is evil (holds up the sign of the cross with his two hands)
Kill the Bridge.
Rich |
Post by KeithC // Mar 19, 2009, 9:31am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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I wonder if people's crashes are associated with the amount of RAM they have? I remember when I used to first start working with TS/GS, I had only over 500 MB of RAM; once I kicked it up to 1GB of RAM, the problems occurred much less frequently. Perhaps with the new TS, 2GB of RAM is the standard?
-Keith |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 19, 2009, 11:16am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I have meshes of the size that I can automatically kill the stability
of most of my applications Truespace included. Its not a privleg of Truespace to crash.Overall I would think there is not enough testing going on.
i am a friend of open betas before the final releases. Most of my programs
do it that way. But 3d is very demanding on hardware....;) |
Post by transient // Mar 19, 2009, 3:00pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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The 7.6 being more stable idea is a myth imo. 7.5 was practically unusable though, so it's an improvement at least.
Modeler/ 6.6 shouldn't crash much unless you use metaballs, the polydraw tool (it corrupts the mesh imo) or some shaders like the digital glazier shadermagic one can do it, too. You can also crash it by piling on geomtery, but 7.6 is no better for me in that way. If you know what you're doing, 6.6 is fine.
I'm not sure what version of 7.6 people use but I get problems with it everyday. It also crashes unexpectedly on my machine, never seems to be a single reason, which is worse than 6.6 ever is.
As for features, modeling in the 3d window is better than modeler (although modeler would be fine if you could adjust the mouse sensitivity). Well, there has to be something better in 7.6 I guess. ;)
Also, while I find 7.6's modeling tools to be overall pretty decent, they are missing core things present in 6.6 (especially polytools) like spinquad and decent loop and ring select/ cut tools. There also isn't a proper snap weld tool (6.6 has giddysnap, very nice). You also can't do edge modeling as easily. Hexagon rules for edge modeling - if Caligari or it's testers aren't familiar with that app then they should change that asap.
I also hate 7.6's modeling widgets, they get in the way, and hitting tab all day is irritating. They should be remade from scratch imo (more like hexagon or max maybe).
Rotate selction is nice. I don't see why this would be so hard to add to modeler. It's not a big carrot for me though especially given 7.6's other flaws.
It worries me that the beta testers don't seem to be conscious of 7.6's fundamental problems, especially the interface ones. Here are two models I've done, the first in 7.6, the second in 6.6, just so the fanboys know I'm not merely trashing workspace for fun.;) The workspace model is a statue, so that's why the hair and lips look weird.
The 6.6 model was more pleasant to make, although there are things I would change in that app as well if it was still being developed (sigh).
Anyway, it seems that comparing the often (but not always) inferior 7.6 to 6.6 is a lost cause, it's fingers in ears all round in that regard. However, I won't give up until the next patch. Then maybe I think it will be time to stop flogging this horse. I'm not getting any younger, and there are too many companies out there that don't just preach to the converted.
[edit] lol 7.6 crashed while I was doing this post. I was trying to delete a sphere I accidently added to the model in edit mode. I'd like to know what the stability"secret" is, no other app does this to me.:rolleyes: |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 19, 2009, 3:13pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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There is no stability secret it simply crashes on some setups (computers) and
on others it doesnt (that often). thats why I said an open beta to test it on more then the mashines it is tested on now.....:o |
Post by transient // Mar 19, 2009, 3:19pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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That's a really good idea. The irony is that if 7.5 hadn't epic failed on my pc, I never would have gone and learned 6.6 to see what the grognards were whining about. A few weeks of study and it became extremely apparent....... |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 19, 2009, 3:25pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Some of the instability is due to the graphics cards and level of drivers, others are not as easy to figure out. I have a couple of different machines here, they are all running different versions of TS 7.6 and betas. The most common lock up for me is the screen freezing after a few hours to days of not using TS and having it opened on the computer.
Transcient quote
"It worries me that the beta testers don't seem to be conscious of 7.6's fundamental problems, especially the interface ones."
And if you knew what you were talking about
Bold statement based on zero fact, making your already stellar reputation of making inaccurate statements more legendary. Please quote the source of this statement?
Rich |
Post by transient // Mar 19, 2009, 3:45pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Aren't I on your ignore list? In any case, grow up. |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 19, 2009, 4:08pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I will, when I hear the source for your newest brilliant comment. Or was that just your opinion, something not based on fact, just your wild imagination.
Rich |
Post by transient // Mar 19, 2009, 4:46pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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That's pathetic.
Please take my original advice and stop making a fool of yourself. |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 19, 2009, 4:54pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Amazing... |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 19, 2009, 5:02pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I like WorkSpace side, but only use it about 50 percent of modeling time.
It's many times faster than model side and one can load it up with zillions of polygons.
The thing I don't like is the rendering and texturing aspects. What blind and deaf monkey designed those! (sorry, no offense - but texture work in WS suxors big time)
Go ahead, try and decipher that Greek alphabet of symbols for the DX material editor. (mumble grumble)
Anyways, navigation is much easier in a heavy poly scene.
It just wasn't designed by the average user like me, but for the more bizarro geeky type. No offense to bizarro geeky types.
WorkSpace side has lots of potential, it's just not there yet. |
Post by transient // Mar 19, 2009, 5:12pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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@ Rich - you dramatically put me on your ignore list the last time I upset you (why aren't I still there?). Please do this again and stop trolling me. |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 19, 2009, 5:20pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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So you do not like it when some one does it back to you, for months that is what you did to me. Anytime I made a thread on something I wanted to know something about or wanted to see if others felt the same way about the way something worked in TS, there you were...
You only lasted one time :D
Rich |
Post by transient // Mar 19, 2009, 5:23pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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WorkSpace side has lots of potential, it's just not there yet.
Wel, it's been two years. How long do we have to wait for it to get as good as the obsolete version of ts, let alone other software packages? Like I said I'll wait for the next patch before I pass my final judgment.
Overall, truespace's development is far too slow considering the problems it has imo. |
Post by Burnart // Mar 19, 2009, 5:25pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Other people use this sandpit so take it elsewhere kids!
Honestly, if you don't like someones opinion then refute them with reasoned argument. Personal attacks waste everyones time and enjoyment of the thread. |
Post by Steinie // Mar 19, 2009, 5:28pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I posted this at the other forum but maybe should post here too.
trueSpace 7 came out late 2005 early 2006
trueSpace 7.1 was around Feb 2006 (approx a 3 month wait)
trueSpace 7.51 came out July 24 2006 (approx a 5 month wait)
trueSpace 7.6 (Free) came out around July 2008 (approx a 2 Year wait)
I plugged the numbers into the Steinie Computer and the Patch will be released in 4 Years and ts 8.0 will be released in the Year 2060. So hang in there loyal users...
Maybe send each other Valentine Cards in the meantime? |
Post by transient // Mar 19, 2009, 5:36pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Anytime I made a thread on something I wanted to know something about or wanted to see if others felt the same way about the way something worked in TS, there you were...
I think I disagreed with you twice and your response each time was to attack me, and then crap on about how you're a beta tester, own every program under the sun etc. I never held this against you, or engineered some drama queen spectacle like you're doing here.
If disagreeing over something as trivial as a feature suggestion is what it takes to make lifelong enemy of you, then I'm afraid your issues are far greater than anything truespace related. It's all in your head, dude, nobody is picking on you, or ever has.
Anyway, I never started this particular fight. In fact I always post assuming you can't read them, and so don't quote you or respond to your opinions out of respect for this.
My comment about the beta testers wasn't directed at anybody in particular, which you could plainly see for yourself if you read my thread. It'a just that any time there is a mention of modeler, we get the same "workspace is better in every way" stuff (this time it was Jack), which simply isn't my experience, or that of ther more esteemed users like emmanuel.
This disturbs me, as 6.6 is still better in many ways (again, read my post).
Jack, whose post (and more broadly posts like it) my comments were aimed at, seems to have taken my opinions without resorting to childish taunts and bullying. Why can't you? |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 19, 2009, 5:37pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I'll bow out of the thread than gentlemen, sorry for taking up some bandwidth.
Rich |
Post by transient // Mar 19, 2009, 5:40pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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@ Burnart- I can't have a beta tester attack me like this and not respond. That would be un-australian.;) I'm not sure why you're passing judgment on either of us anyway, it's really none of your business.
I plugged the numbers into the Steinie Computer and the Patch will be released in 4 Years and ts 8.0 will be released in the Year 2060. So hang in there loyal users..
I'm willing to wait if it fixes ts's issues (particularly vray) and improves it's usability. Ts's development is agonisingly slow, though. |
Post by Burnart // Mar 19, 2009, 6:55pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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[QUOTE=transient;97388]@ Burnart- I can't have a beta tester attack me like this and not respond. That would be un-australian.;) I'm not sure why you're passing judgment on either of us anyway, it's really none of your business./QUOTE]
I take your comment without feeling aggrieved by it. :) but to answer you implied question when its an argument occurring in a public forum then the participants are making it my business whether I want to be involved or not. As I said others use this sandpit. |
Post by tatts // Mar 19, 2009, 7:07pm
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tatts
Total Posts: 145
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Wow! Maybe I should'nt post anymore. I don't want to start arguements, I personally see enough of them through out my daily life, It really does suck to read them too.
@ transient
I am sorry to hear that you are having so many issues with TS, I hope things turn around for you in the future. BTW I like your work! those models are nice.
I actually thought that I could make a thread stating things that I liked about TS, and maybe mention things that i've learned about it, In turn people reply about things that they already know about it which then adds to the great tree of knowledge :)
I did'nt however want to start a debate. It seems that for the few threads that I have posted, there has been some type of debate or another. Kinda makes these threads unenjoyable to read.
I too have bought programs that i am very unhappy with. But when I want to b**** about them, I usually do that in my own threads. When someone posts positive things that they like about certain programs, Even if I don't like the program. If I have something positive to say about it, then I do. If I don't, then I usually refrain from replying to the thread. As I said, I don't want to start any arguements here.
However to all, don't bother to reply and just allow this thread to die now. I've said what I wanted to say.... |
Post by Steinie // Mar 20, 2009, 2:53am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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You know what? Almost every thread is about a bug, a feature not delivered, gripe and negative feedback. This one started out positive and a couple long term users who have had jabs in the past brought the negatives back into this one too.
I don't think trueSpace is as bad as users here make it out to be. If I thought it was as bad as they make it I would have left a long time ago. Actually we have two programs now, the old and the new. The old was not created in a year but developed over time. Why should we expect the new side to appear all at once?
There is a lot to like about the workSpace side and anyone saying we can't do this or that with it hasn't tried.
This started out as a refreshing thread and it would be nice to keep it going. |
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