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Questions about Truespace. . .
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Questions about Truespace. . . // Roundtable
Post by nealiosnoise // Feb 28, 2009, 5:03am
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nealiosnoise
Total Posts: 77
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i been wondering some stuff, so i will let out,
- Why is Truespace 7.6 Free? Will the next version be free?
it would be an evil idea if microsoft was doing this to gain users, and once they have all these new dedicated users, they will charge for the next versions of Truespace $$$$, what an evil, evil plan!! i hope not, but if they are thinking about it, i hope its not alot..
- What is the goal in making Truespace free?
- How do YOU compare Truespace to all the other 3D Programs? Blender?? 3DS Max?
i only git a lick of 3DS Max 7, and it got me hooked, then i got vista, and that was the end of my 3D adventure..
i Tried to get into Blender, i have it still, but its hard to get into, i think its there interface that turns me off, you have to find everything, but im still interested in it.
Thank god i stumbled upon Truespace . .
- How often are you truespacing? how long ?
im usually messing with truespace 4 hours a day, if only there was a way to make money doing this, it would be great. ..... |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 28, 2009, 5:26am
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jamesmc
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I don't think anyone knows the future plans of trueSpace but Roman and perhaps a few Microsoft players, maybe a few more.
Whether they will charge for the next version? dunno - But, I think they want some plug-ins built by users and outside developers first.
The main difference between tS and other 3D applications is with tS you can just start doing something. It can be planned, willy-nilly or somewhere in between.
Comparing tS to other 3D software is rather difficult. It's not a niche software like Carrara (poser and daz imports.) It's not a Lucas film or Dreamworks class software, although it could be with additional software to help it up.
What tS is, is a a box of crayons or sketch pencils or oil painting brushes. That is, it is what you make it.
One feature tS has that other 3D software doesn't is a real time interface that requires no render. It's render is in real time. It's truly WYSIWIG. This of course is on the workspace side.
The older model side has a couple of render engines built in. However, there is Dribble and Yahfray (spelling) coming on board as two more render engines.
Speaking of Blender, there was a recent plug-in developed by Frootee, a user and beta tester, who made the attributes of Blender work for a dynamic fluid simulator that works in tS.
tS is what you make it. It can be very powerful or a nice hobby that lets you go at your own pace. Plus, there are dozens and dozens of free courses available.
I'm strickly hacker type of guy - that is, I don't care, I play around with what pops up in my head. Strictly amateur level and sometimes more akin to sandbox level. :)
I have powerful 3D software as well and they can do amazing things, but ends up making my head hurt by the time I get from point A to point B.
tS is the comfortable pair of shoes you like to wear. Enjoy it, play with it, poke Steinie in the eyes (well maybe not that last part) :) |
Post by RAYMAN // Feb 28, 2009, 7:25am
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RAYMAN
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Will I spend money on TS8 ?
I dunno ! Depends on how much has been improved the way I want it to...
If not i will not ! im spending less and less time in Truespace because its developing away from me;).How do I see that? Well there are a few other
pieces of software that are free too and let you organise your work in a better way.... I hate digging in and out of the link editor just to see
what materials are attached Is that bad workflow ? Yes it is !
When I point that out when It comes up and we see examples and i comment on those because we have examples on hand instead of ranting into the air
and not showing examples... some people get angry at me....
Is change realy requested by the people? ... I dont think so and thats the problem.
I´ve seen many software and its mostly gimmicky to knucklebreaking
... and Truespaces workflow is getting worse and not better from model side
to workspace. Then theres the lack of good import and export in workspace
side ...
We could have a few million polys import because workspace can handle it
but we only have a few hundredthousend because of the bridgea nd model
side import. Dont get me wrong luuv is good . but its the limits of old model side in size...
Blender isnt as bad as the people think and you can also import the sequence
of fluids via obj import to any software...... Animation of fluids is a problem though you need the Truespaceplugin....
Maya and Max are just not good example to compare with because both have pluses and minusesand are not as easy to work with as they could be.
So comparing to industry standards is comparing to old shoes.
Not everything is badly designed in Truespace thats why I´m still here !;)
Peter |
Post by Steinie // Feb 28, 2009, 9:31am
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tS is the comfortable pair of shoes you like to wear. Enjoy it, play with it, poke Steinie in the eyes (well maybe not that last part) :)
I blocked you with my Stooges move...:D
Yep trueSpace workSpace needs some work to be considered finished however this has never stopped me from creating some nice renderings.
I like the workSpace side and hope that Caligari continues to improve it. I think the LE should have been buried deeper so that the average user
didn't have to use it forcing Caligari to improve the workflow. I also see the importance of the LE for the technically inclined user too. That has helped us
customize trueSpace to our liking in many ways so far.
In a Studio setting trueSpace probably wouldn't hold up yet. Doing personal freelance jobs using this software is very doable and is being done by many here already.
There have been times that the shortcomings of the user has been blamed unjustly on their software. |
Post by bng123 // Feb 28, 2009, 11:47am
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bng123
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Truespace is a very capable 3d modeling package that has never really been marketed very well by Caligari at all. It's basically the best kept secret in the entire 3d modeling world. Compared to the vast array of modeling packages out there Truespace is one of the best overall modelers ever produced. I got started in modeling a few years back with no prior knowledge of 3d modeling what so ever. Caligari 3d modelers are the only ones that have ever made any sense to a non professional model maker like myself. If I ever do find the need to purchase a 3d modeling package then Truespace would indeed be my first choice. It conforms to the mass market concept of Keep It Simple Stupid. Most 3d modelers I've tried learning have mostly just led to nothing but sheer frustration when trying to learn how to use such a product. I discovered Caligari purely by accident sometime back a few years. Once I mastered the basics of creating 3d objects with Truespace the rest of learning how to do more with it became more or less child's play. I sincerely hope that now that Microsoft is in the picture that Truespace will finally get marketed more to the mass market through out the world, and not just the United States of America. Keep the price reasonable and the UI simple and Truespace could surpass other 3d modeling packages by sheer volume and popularity. I think that Caligari should focus more attention to better market a truly excellent 3d modeling package. Leroy Pena, in West Texas. |
Post by phlewp // Feb 28, 2009, 8:37pm
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phlewp
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Truespace is a very capable 3d modeling package that has never really been marketed very well by Caligari at all. It's basically the best kept secret in the entire 3d modeling world. Compared to the vast array of modeling packages out there Truespace is one of the best overall modelers ever produced. I got started in modeling a few years back with no prior knowledge of 3d modeling what so ever. Caligari 3d modelers are the only ones that have ever made any sense to a non professional model maker like myself. If I ever do find the need to purchase a 3d modeling package then Truespace would indeed be my first choice. It conforms to the mass market concept of Keep It Simple Stupid. Most 3d modelers I've tried learning have mostly just led to nothing but sheer frustration when trying to learn how to use such a product. I discovered Caligari purely by accident sometime back a few years. Once I mastered the basics of creating 3d objects with Truespace the rest of learning how to do more with it became more or less child's play. I sincerely hope that now that Microsoft is in the picture that Truespace will finally get marketed more to the mass market through out the world, and not just the United States of America. Keep the price reasonable and the UI simple and Truespace could surpass other 3d modeling packages by sheer volume and popularity. I think that Caligari should focus more attention to better market a truly excellent 3d modeling package. Leroy Pena, in West Texas.
Marketing will do nothing to help tS's market penetration in the professional world. It may help in terms of graphic designers who know nothing of 3D but nevertheless need to occasionally create some simple 3D work, but marketing can not, and will not, push tS into the hands of any studios.
The simple fact of the matter is, tS doesn't cut it in a studio's production pipeline. If tS was the best option, it'd be in greater use, it really is just that simple. It's not a lack of marketing. The industry knows tS exists. It also knows it doesn't provide what is needed. Studios use what they feel to be the best tool for the job. |
Post by Dragneye // Mar 1, 2009, 8:16pm
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Dragneye
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Hi phlewp
Can you please elaborate WHY you think tS won't cut it in a studio's production pipeline? I'd like to understand. |
Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 3:31am
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TomG
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For one thing, tS was never designed with a production studio's workflow in mind. Despite popular belief, tS was never viewed as in competition with 3DS Max or Lightwave - they targeted specific areas, eg games, television movies, and they did indeed tailor their workflow to those areas.
tS was really always aimed at "3D for the web age" as the slogan used to go on the Caligari site. It was about making interactive 3D. That was always Roman's plan for it. As an offshoot, it also makes good "traditional static" 3D like images and animations :) I say an animation is static, as the media is static, once made it stays that way, unlike walking through a 3D scene in real-time.
tS was also aimed at making 3D more accessible to more people, rather than focusing on "industry". This was not just in terms of price point, and in terms of making old versions available rather than just pulling them and leaving people to buy the latest (most expensive) version, but also in terms of the interface and tools.
So really, tS doesn't fit production pipelines for quite intentional reasons. It was always looking in a different direction than aiming to find itself used in some Hollywood movie or other, so naturally doesn't have as good a fit for tha as applications that WERE aimed in that direction.
So, I never did and still don't compare tS to Max, Maya, etc. They are different tools for different jobs, essentially. Not to say there aren't things to be learned, workflows to be improved, etc. But tS is definitely not a "failed 3DS Max", it is simply a different product with a different aim, mindset and philosophy.
As for why tS is free, just the natural evolution of what Caligari has always aimed to do. We wanted 3D in the hands of as many as possible. We gave away our old versions where licenses permitted. Other not-so-old versions we sold at low prices as entry points for those who didn't have a lot of cash. The latest version of tS was always aimed at being affordable and accessible.
With Microsoft owning Caligari, it became possible to actually make the full 3D application available for free, something perfectly in line with Caligari's philosophy and approach, but not possible for us as a separate independent company.
It's available free as we think 3D is important, just as we always thought 3D was important. Because Caligari believe that interactice shared spaces are going to grow in usefulness and so importance, and we want folks to have tools to access that and tools to create that. Because we always wanted 3D in the hands of as many as possible :)
As to future versions and pricing, we don't discuss future plans (see many many threads on that - avoids negative and positive disappointment basically, "You said that wouldn't be in and it is and now I bought another app thinking you wouldnt have it! I am angry!" "You said it would be in and it isn't and I didn't buy another app thinking you would have it. I am angry!"), so can't comment on that.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by nealiosnoise // Mar 2, 2009, 5:18am
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nealiosnoise
Total Posts: 77
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truespace is more like a pre production design program? rather a 3d program for media, movies, cg, animations..
im guessing no one knows if truespace is going to really expand on what it can do, maybe branch toward cinema?
or work on improving the fundemental tools truespace already has,
how much will truespace evolve.. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 2, 2009, 5:59am
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Jack Edwards
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I think a lot of the tools needed for cinema, are also important for generating animations for shared spaces. So it's not necessarily a mutually exclusive path.
In fact, animation and things like physics, particles, etc, are very important to have for interactive spaces. So I think it wouldn't be unrealistic to expect for the animation tools to continue to be improved. Roman's decision to push for cloth in 7.6 and vertex morph tools for 7.5 I feel are clear indications of that direction and vision like Tom describes.
Rendering tools for still image and video have always been the province of 3rd party software, even the old versions of Truespace licensed other render engines, Lightworks, VRay, etc. So it may be for the best that rendering solutions have moved entirely into the 3rd party realm lately. That gives us the flexibility as TS users to branch out, and find the best render solution for our needs. |
Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 6:09am
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TomG
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Safe to say that tS is not going to branch toward use in movies in the cinema - since Caligari has spent 20 years not viewing that as our ultimate use, I especially doubt it is going to start now ;)
Remember that the slogan was "3D for the web age". This is where tS is coming from. Things like VRML just didn't cut it, Caligari supported those way back in tS3. So you can see that 3D for the web, real-time interactive 3D, is nothing new to tS, it really was what it was always all about. But with VRML and other "3D on the web" solutions not working, why not just do it yourself? This is why the inclusion of shared spaces, collaborative modeling, greatly improved real-time renderer, etc. An extension of what tS was always aimed at.
tS has found a great deal of use beyond that of course, and sees a great deal of development on tools that are broader than that. So you have offline rendering, etc. tS found its biggest use amongst illustrators, product designers, and architects, to date at any rate.
tS certainly wasn't, and still isn't, just about pre-production (though it would be an admirable tool for such a thing). It was (and is) intended for media, cg and animations - just not media, CG or animations for blockbuster Hollywood hits or a TV series (animated or otherwise), etc. You could use it to make those, but it just was not it's main focus, so it's workflow and toolset is not streamlined and created to fit those specifically, unlike other tools.
But it was, and still is, software that can produce media, cg and animation (cg just means computer generated, so anything and everything in tS fits that bill; media just means a mechanism for delivery, and tS can deliver in many media, from still to trad animation to real-time interactive 3D; and animation, again, tS can deliver in trad animation to WMVs and other premade files, through to the newer and more rare interactive 3D).
Hope this helps on the historical perspective. Of course the future is wide open!
Tom |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 2, 2009, 7:55am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Safe to say that tS is not going to branch toward use in movies in the cinema - since Caligari has spent 20 years not viewing that as our ultimate use, I especially doubt it is going to start now ;)
Tom
I never thought it would and never expected it to be !
I just dont understand why its moving away from a) being very userfriendly
and b) moving away from being a part of a production pipeline (ie import and
export plugins gone and no direct import via obj in workspace....
Why do i say its moving away from being userfriendly because you have to go
through lots of nodes rather then having a userfriendly stack where you
can change the most vital thing you need on the surface.
Vue can do it so why cant Truespace....;)(got the nodes but you dont have to use them..) |
Post by sj41 // Mar 2, 2009, 8:58am
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As to future versions and pricing, we don't discuss future plans (see many many threads on that - avoids negative and positive disappointment basically, "You said that wouldn't be in and it is and now I bought another app thinking you wouldnt have it! I am angry!" "You said it would be in and it isn't and I didn't buy another app thinking you would have it. I am angry!"), so can't comment on that.
HTH!
Tom
Tom, I understand why Caligari wants some degree of secrecy about future development plans, but I think it's taken too far. I keep checking this forum hoping to see an update from Roman but it never comes. His last note was almost 2 months ago and he said essentially nothing. I'd like to use tS, but I don't because the bridge is too cumbersome and there is no good renderer on the Workspace side. I keep hoping that something will be done to make it more usable but the complete lack of any information drains me of any enthusiasm I might have for the product. I can't help but contrast trueSpace's approach with that of the other free 3D application (the 'B' word). In their forums, there is almost more information about the status and development than you can follow, and as a result, a great deal of enthusiasm in the community. I believe that Caligari's silence is driving people away -- it's certainly having that effect on me. |
Post by marcel // Mar 2, 2009, 9:05am
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......As to future versions and pricing, we don't discuss future plans (see many many threads on that - avoids negative and positive disappointment basically, "You said that wouldn't be in and it is and now I bought another app thinking you wouldnt have it! I am angry!" "You said it would be in and it isn't and I didn't buy another app thinking you would have it. I am angry!"), so can't comment on that.
HTH!
Tom
Some time ago, I was worried about the future of TS but I notice that there are external development interesting. I think we can still enjoy the quality of TS for a long time. The news from the merger with Microsoft will provide new tools for other applications. I am now positive. This is important because I use TS a lot for my job. :) |
Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2009, 9:16am
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The other software in question is open source, so naturally you would expect lots of development news about it being discussed openly :)
Despite being free, and despite having a very open architecture so it is easy to carry out third party development, we are not open source and so not going to be as open. Our product remains one with a license, with protected code, and so a much more closed development. Sorry that people find it frustrating, which I quite understand - but it is founded on many years of experience trying different approaches, and this was settled on as the best.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 2, 2009, 9:52am
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jamesmc
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The new instruction manual for tS8 will be sent out for bid. Rumors are that a Mediterranean company won the contract. |
Post by Dragneye // Mar 2, 2009, 10:05am
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Dragneye
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LOLOL
Dude! where'd you find this?!
If anyone needs translation, I can help (but, I'll need a Greek-English dictionary cuz they're using hi-falootin' words to explain a simple concept) :D
ummm... Caligari? PLEASE don't use these guys for the new manual. PLEASE! |
Post by marcel // Mar 2, 2009, 10:15am
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marcel
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I imagine a new thread with fake screenshot to show TS8, TS9, and more... :)
Multitouch interface, objets moving with the iris, holographic projection for virtual earth,.... :D |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 2, 2009, 10:20am
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jamesmc
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I imagine a new thread with fake screenshot to show TS8, TS9, and more... :)
Multitouch interface, objets moving with the iris, holographic projection for virtual earth,.... :D
I have been working on a 'Flux Capacitor' interface, maybe I'll... |
Post by marcel // Mar 2, 2009, 10:25am
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marcel
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what Jules Verne would if he lived today? ;) |
Post by sj41 // Mar 2, 2009, 10:26am
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The other software in question is open source, so naturally you would expect lots of development news about it being discussed openly :)
Despite being free, and despite having a very open architecture so it is easy to carry out third party development, we are not open source and so not going to be as open. Our product remains one with a license, with protected code, and so a much more closed development. Sorry that people find it frustrating, which I quite understand - but it is founded on many years of experience trying different approaches, and this was settled on as the best.
HTH!
Tom
Tom, I don't expect tS to become open source nor expose details of its future plans like that other community. My point was that more information generates excitement and enthusiasm in the user community; whereas no information (especially where we're talking about a product that still is only partially complete) turns off users and results in fewer and fewer visits to this forum. A regular (I'd be satisfied with monthly) update that had some real information in it would help tremendously. |
Post by nealiosnoise // Mar 2, 2009, 10:48am
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i forgot about Windows 7 , it supposed to have touch screen capability.. but how would truespace utilize it.? windows 7 is around the corner, i wonder if truespace's next version is being worked on with Windows 7 in mind...
drivers, patchs, the works.. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 2, 2009, 10:57am
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Considering TrueSpace's current lack of support for tablets, I highly doubt that the Windows "Surface" API will be supported any time soon within trueSpace. |
Post by v3rd3 // Mar 2, 2009, 11:43am
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Actually I heard a rumour that the next improvement in hardware interfaces was an upgrade from rodents to marsupials... hence in future we will be using "the roo". It is a unique device intended to assist those in colder climates in maintaining their manual dexterity... thus the implementation of "the pocket".... This will also represent a potential cross marketing vehicle for hardware manufacturers and the Disney corporation.
Earlier efforts at the marsupial line met with mixed reviews ("the pocket pc")... test marketed on some simpler north country dwellers ("Canadians") the decision to limit functionality to match user capabilities backfired when the product was accidentally shipped to users with higher expectactions and the voice to express discontent ("not Canadians").
"The Roo" will of course work in 3 dimensional space owing to the very large springs on which it will be mounted.
Laptop installations may be problematic as the air stewards union is expressing concern regarding in-flight shock during service hours on overseas flights.
I guess we will all just have to wait and see how this one turns out. It will be special. :D |
Post by Nez // Mar 11, 2009, 6:49am
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Considering TrueSpace's current lack of support for tablets, I highly doubt that the Windows "Surface" API will be supported any time soon within trueSpace.
That would be a shame - I reckon Surface looks awesome and could be a fantastic modelling environment - will be interesting to see who does manage to support it.... in a couple of years when it makes it through to consumer units, I think Surface could turn home computing into something a lot cooler... at least with MS behind Caligari, they ought to be able to steal a march on their rivals, but I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up... |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 15, 2009, 11:49pm
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Tom, I don't expect tS to become open source nor expose details of its future plans like that other community. My point was that more information generates excitement and enthusiasm in the user community; whereas no information (especially where we're talking about a product that still is only partially complete) turns off users and results in fewer and fewer visits to this forum. A regular (I'd be satisfied with monthly) update that had some real information in it would help tremendously.
You're of course entitled to this opinion and I'm sure there are others who also support it.
Speaking for myself the thing that generates excitment and enthusiasm in me is seeing the work that other folk are doing with the trueSpace versions we already have. Information about a possible future product or product development that might or might not happen strikes me as a waste of everyones time. After all, the information is of no real use to us until such time as the product is released. There's no harm in us speculating about tS future but that's all we can do, regardless of how often Roman posts.
What turns me off is all the negativity from those among us who seem to be so keen to cross bridges we haven't got to yet.
Suppose Roman did give monthly updates - that would have us drooling over features that might not actually be feasible and arguing over where each person thinks tS should go. I'm still bemused by the number of people who seem to think the "3d industry" only applies to TV, games and movies and that tS is limited to that small and highly specialised sector.
Every other software I use makes announcements AFTER the fact not before - I don't understand why anyone would expect Caligari to be any different, particulary as they have consistently maintained the the same policy for 20 years.
That would be a shame - I reckon Surface looks awesome and could be a fantastic modelling environment - will be interesting to see who does manage to support it.... in a couple of years when it makes it through to consumer units, I think Surface could turn home computing into something a lot cooler... at least with MS behind Caligari, they ought to be able to steal a march on their rivals, but I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up...
Check out this video - this could be the type of 3d interface we will one day have....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzFpg271sm8 |
Post by Breech Block // Mar 16, 2009, 2:42am
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Breech Block
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Check out this video - this could be the type of 3d interface we will one day have....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzFpg271sm8
Ahh...Bruce Branit's latest masterpiece; I never get tired of seeing that. For anyone intrested, Bruce Branit was the co-creator of '405', a homemade SFX video that took the web by storm a few years ago. He went on from that to form his own VFX company - Branit VFX based in Kansas City.
As for a future tS interface, I'd settle for the one Tony Stark uses in the movie Ironman to design his nextgen suit. Man that was really awesome! |
Post by marcel // Mar 16, 2009, 4:07am
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marcel
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An holographic interface for TS coming soon:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=7788
See the last page of this thread. I think it is a beta :) |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 16, 2009, 4:13am
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Every other software I use makes announcements AFTER the fact not before - I don't understand why anyone would expect Caligari to be any different, particulary as they have consistently maintained the the same policy for 20 years.
That is interesting, all the software I use regurarily I have an idea where they are going and basically when to expect them... they also have the advantage of having complete versions on the market right now, not the unfinished version we are using right now. Example, think IK2.
As for the same policy for 20 years, incorrect, they implemented the not telling policy within the last 5 years.
Rich |
Post by prodigy // Mar 16, 2009, 12:10pm
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"Every other software I use makes announcements AFTER the fact not before - I don't understand why anyone would expect Caligari to be any different, particulary as they have consistently maintained the the same policy for 20 years."
First post in Captain's blog.
Follow point number 4
"4. Rendering
Yes, you will get Hair and Fur shaders :) V-Ray will be moved to the Player side so that bridge will no longer get in the way there. Other new V-Ray features will be good animation support, such as high quality motion blur, incremental updates for irradiance/photon maps, GI light maps, multi-pass rendering, depth of field, post processing, chromatic refraction, anisotropic reflections, true displacement mapping and more. There will be improvements in Lightworks too."
Read the bold letters...
You can't imagine how long im waiting for this features..
yes.. you know
06-09-2006
Want to know more? im still waiting more from vray side.. :banana:
why? cos i also read this..
01-08-2009
"We are still working on TS7.6 patch which should include some Vray fixes...."
So i will wait happyly for this vray fixes till next patch.. :) |
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