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truespace 6.6 and ts7 crash when using dual monitors
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truespace 6.6 and ts7 crash when using dual monitors // Roundtable
Post by frootee // Jun 17, 2006, 9:35am
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frootee
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Hi folks. I did not have this problem before; today I hooked up a 15 inch monitor, alongside my 19 inch monitor; both are set to 1280 x 1024, refresh rate 85 Hz. When I load truespace, the system hangs.
I am using an ATI X1600 Pro, 256 MB.
Any tips?
thanks,
jason |
Post by frootee // Jun 17, 2006, 9:36am
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frootee
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correction, the video card is an X1600, not an X1600 Pro
thanks
jason |
Post by stan // Jun 17, 2006, 10:34am
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stan
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hi Jason,
as a dual monitor user with ati cards my only thoughts are.. what is your 15" monitor rated at for the resolution compared to the 19"..could it be the card's software is designed to use two monitors the same size and capability so it doesn't know they are not equal so the settings giving more that the 15" is capable of..? :confused: |
Post by frootee // Jun 17, 2006, 11:12am
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frootee
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thanks stan.
well, the rated resolution is at least 1024 x 768, so I set both monitors for that.
I tried several things, but finally said aw-fuggit. I took it off. It is a very old monitor; I think I bought it back around 1994 or something. I am able to use other applications without trouble, just truespace gives me trouble.
The reason I was interested in using it was to use it for viewing a tutorial, while using the larger monitor to work on a model.
Oh well. I am a bit leary about using a dual monitor setup; I'd hate to buy another monitor just to find out it won't work. Then again, other folks do it; and, this computer itself is kind of outdated. But it still chugs along. Perhaps with the old 15 inch monitor, a mobo dated back to 2001 or so, without bios updates, along with a hodge podge of newer technology (video card), I am bound to ask for trouble. Heck, I have trouble using a USB mouse and keyboard, fer cryin out loud. I bought a wireless mouse which worked for awhile, but then died.
Okay, this is turning into a rant. Thanks for the help though!
jason |
Post by stan // Jun 17, 2006, 11:24am
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stan
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Jason..I have always had two 19" monitors.never different sizes...at one point they were two different makes, then I got another samsung ..duals have always worked well for me on ati cards....my old machine was a 1gig asus MB..128 mg ati card which ran fine..new machine is 3 gig dual core..with 256 mg ati card..it rocks..
the only thing in truespace is in preferences..the dual monitor check box..when unchecked extra views can't be placed on monitor 2.. :cool: Gord |
Post by Alien // Jun 17, 2006, 12:10pm
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Alien
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Frootee:
Different sizes of monitors is not a problem, nor what caused your problem. If you've read about the fun & games I've been having recently with Layouts, you may have noticed that they started shortly after I got a new monitor. So it's the new monitor's fault, yes? Not exactly.
I can tell you for a fact it's not a question of different sizes, as I was using a 17" & a 20" [both at 1024x768] for a couple of years [and am currently using a 19" LCD & 20" CRT]. tS [i]can get a bit touchy if you try using 2 different monitors at 2 different resolutions though [maybe not for everyone, but it is a possibility people should be aware of].
If anything I'd say the issues you've experienced are a combination of 2 things - whatever windows does with various related settings "behind the scenes" when you add/remove a monitor, & tS's sensitivity to such situations.
If you can't get into tS at all, I'd say back up the folders for tS to somewhere else, uninstall, download the ATI Catalyst Uninstaller, use Add/Remove to uninstall the ATI software, reboot, then use the Cat Uninstaller, reboot again, & reinstall your drivers.
Then reinstall tS. Getting stuff back into 6.6 should be fairly simple, getting stuff back into tS7 is a bit more complicated if it wasn't actually exported previously, & TBH I haven't tried it, though I've read it's theoretically possible.
The above being said, my problems could have been magnified by the fact that I don't use tS on the primary monitor, & my primary monitor isn't connected to the port that the my 9600 Pro would normally default to as primary. When you start getting into that sort of stuff [in my experience] tS can, as previously mentioned, get a bit touchy. If you left the 15" as secondary & were only using tS on the other 1, then I would have thought tS would have been less likely to complain, but redoing the drivers & tS install may still solve your probs. |
Post by frootee // Jun 17, 2006, 2:07pm
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frootee
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Hi Alien. Thank you very much for the info.
I tried several things including uninstalling the drivers, rebooting, getting the latest drivers and reinstalling. However, I did not try uninstalling ts6.
I could get into ts, and it would be alive for about 15 seconds or so. Then, when I clicked on any button, the whole system would hang. A nonrecoverable failure.
Truespace is the only application where I had any trouble with this dual monitor setup. I also use irrlicht (game engine) and milkshape, both being graphical apps, and they did not have any issues.
But I will try your suggestion to see if that may work. BTW I had the same issue with ts7. Hum.
thanks!
jason |
Post by frootee // Jun 17, 2006, 2:09pm
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frootee
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getting ahead of myself again...
If I started ts, and did not touch anything, the system would not lock up. But as soon as I started adding objects and pushing buttons, THEN the system would lock up.
thanks!
Frootee |
Post by Alien // Jun 17, 2006, 2:32pm
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Alien
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You managed to hang your whole system? :eek: Wow, don't think I've had that happen to me [thankfully!] - well not because of tS, anyway! ;)
In that case, you may want to run a registry cleaning app as well, as tS uninstall doesn't tend to get rid of everything tS-related. TBH, I'm not sure which 1 to recommend. I actually use more than 1, but... if you've done a fair bit of wading through the registry then fair enough, but I'm not sure I could recommend the 1s I use to anybody that hasn't done much with the registry, as they tend to expect you to make a judgement call for each entry they find on whether to delete/change the entry or not. |
Post by frootee // Jun 17, 2006, 5:13pm
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frootee
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Thanks Alien. Yeah, I hung the whole system. The only time it happens is when I click on a button.
I will probably muck with this since I would still like to use the other monitor.
thanks so much for your help!
Frootee |
Post by Alien // Jun 17, 2006, 5:46pm
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Alien
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Actually, now that I think of it, it might be better to do the registry cleaning after uninstalling the drivers [windows'll put its own more basic 1s in, which are enough for running a reg cleaning app, but before reinstall of the [proper, ATI] drivers, as reg-cleaning apps can occasionally be a little over-zealous, & when the drivers are reinstalled it should all be ok [of course, you've still got to reinstall tS, but if you're lucky you won't have any problems with that].
You may want to disable your anti-virus prog while installing tS, as well as disable Spybot's memory resident protection [if you use Spybot], & if you're using anything more sophisticated than the Windows firewall you might want to disable that as well disable your network connection first! - IIRC, on average (it can be a lot less) an unprotected Windows PC with XP SP2, connected to the net, lasts about 22 minutes before becoming infected!]
Should you have any probs with layouts when you reinstall tS7... all I can say is welcome to the club :rolleyes:, & take a look at the thread I started in the Tech forum. :) |
Post by frootee // Jun 18, 2006, 6:04am
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frootee
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Hi Alien.
Well, I uninstalled ts, and the ati drivers, then ran a registry cleaner. Then, reinstalled the ati drivers, followed by ts. No luck. Still hangs.
The only other option would be to flash the bios, but I do not feel safe doing that. So, I may just build a 3rd computer. I have Windows XP on this machine, but it is the OEM version, which means, if the computer dies, so does the XP copy. I would think that if I just replaced the mobo then I could continue to use XP but I don't want to take that chance. So for now, I will just live with this one monitor. When I build the 3rd computer, I will test/make sure I can support 2 monitors on it.
Tell you the truth, if I build a 3rd computer, I can still accomplish the same thing that I wanted in the first place: A monitor that displays tutorials/videos. I could probably do it just about as cheaply as buying a nice LCD that supports 1600 / 1200 (which is what I wanted: Samsung, $359, newegg.com) since I have:
a spare monitor
a spare computer case
a spare hard drive
all I would need would be a mobo/cpu, possibly with onboard video
Or, just go all out and get a better system with PCI-express x16 slots and Serial ATA hard drive connections. A couple things to think about.
But if I flashed the bios and it failed, I'd be totally screwed.
Thanks!
Frootee |
Post by Alien // Jun 18, 2006, 7:02am
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Alien
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Well, I uninstalled ts, and the ati drivers, then ran a registry cleaner. Then, reinstalled the ati drivers, followed by ts. No luck. Still hangs.
That's a bummer. :( Not sure what else to suggest, other than to see if Caligari can offer any help.
The only other option would be to flash the bios, but I do not feel safe doing that.
Good! That's not something I would have suggested, & unless the release/update notes for your mobo's BIOS actually state that the latest version or a previous version that's more recent than the 1 you currently use [which would mean the latest 1 should have the changes too, but they only tend to list the changes for each version] actually fixes a problem like this then I would definitely recommend you leaving the BIOS alone.
So, I may just build a 3rd computer. I have Windows XP on this machine, but it is the OEM version, which means, if the computer dies, so does the XP copy.
Why? Didn't you get an XP install disk? Was the computer from 1 of those manufacturers that just gives you a restore disk? [like a backup done with Norton/Symantec Ghost]
I would think that if I just replaced the mobo then I could continue to use XP but I don't want to take that chance.
I think the issue is that you can't change more than X amount of stuff in a 6 month period, but I'm not sure what the limit is.
So for now, I will just live with this one monitor. When I build the 3rd computer, I will test/make sure I can support 2 monitors on it.
I can't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to use 2 monitors on it [especially as, from what you've said, tS is the only prog with problems]. I would have thought the worst case scenario would be that you'd just have to reformat & do a clean install of XP on the same machine [with both monitors already connected].
Tell you the truth, if I build a 3rd computer, I can still accomplish the same
thing that I wanted in the first place: A monitor that displays tutorials/videos.
Admit it - you just want an excuse to buy another computer, don't you? :D
I could probably do it just about as cheaply as buying a nice LCD that supports 1600 / 1200 (which is what I wanted: Samsung, $359, newegg.com) since I have:
a spare monitor
a spare computer case
a spare hard drive
all I would need would be a mobo/cpu, possibly with onboard video
What about a PSU? With a few exceptions, PSUs that come with a case are generally not up to the same standard as some of the name brands. Don't forget memory as well.
Or, just go all out and get a better system with PCI-express x16 slots and Serial ATA hard drive connections. A couple things to think about.
LOL, yeah, that's what I want [though my Abit AN7 has a couple of SATA connections - currently unused]. It's not so much the PCI-e that attracts me to the idea of a new mobo, more like the idea of having 1 with 2 CPU sockets. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/drool.gif
But if I flashed the bios and it failed, I'd be totally screwed.
True, unless you have an actual install disk instead of a restore disk, in which case you should be able to just replace the mobo & reinstall XP, though you can also sometimes get replacement BIOS chips as well.
I just had another idea, try finding the latest version of DirectX on MS's download site, download the redistrutable version (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=fb73d860-5af1-45e5-bac0-9bc7a5254203&DisplayLang=en) & install it, that sometimes helps. I know you probably already have it on there, but occasionally reinstalling it fixes something [don't know what] that might be borked. |
Post by frootee // Jun 18, 2006, 8:23am
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frootee
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Hi Alien.
well, I got the XP OEM cd from newegg.com, full version, for $135. I can't transfer this version to other computers should this one die.
I actually had the system lock up when I was trying to cd to the directory that had a new bios ROM in it today, so it appears to not be just ts that has this issue. The BIOS is old, from 2001. The latest bios is from 2004 I believe, although it says nothing about fixing this type of problem.
Although I would love to have a 3rd system, since I have tsnet for 3nodes, I do not have the space for it. We are cramped here as it is. We intend to move away from our current location (New England) to another part of the country (US) where the cost of living (and real estate) is cheaper. So we can get more space for our stuff. We basically have to do a slow-dance if we pass each other in the hallway, due to our furniture and cramped quarters. :cool:
anyway, I think I need to leave well enough alone; it takes a lot of time fiddling with this stuff and finding out it does not work,when I really should be rendering something. :-D
Thanks for all your help!
Frootee |
Post by Alien // Jun 18, 2006, 10:14am
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Alien
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well, I got the XP OEM cd from newegg.com, full version, for $135. I can't transfer this version to other computers should this one die.
Theoretically, yes - but in practice, there's more than 1 way to reinstall a cat. ;)
Seriously though, whilst you can't go completely from 1 system to a completely different 1 all at once, you can achieve the same result gradually, over time [remember what I said about the 6 months thing].
I actually had the system lock up when I was trying to cd to the directory that had a new bios ROM in it today, so it appears to not be just ts that has this issue. The BIOS is old, from 2001. The latest bios is from 2004 I believe, although it says nothing about fixing this type of problem.
The latest 1 might not, but... have you got a link to the site I can look at?
From what you just said about it happening again I'm inclined to think the problem may not be software afterall. It could be, but TBH it's starting to sound like it might be 1 of the most irritating hardware faults known to geek-kind: faulty RAM.
The reason it's so irritating, is although a RAM stick can just die completely & suddenly [easier to diagnose on account of suddenly seeing a smaller amount listed during booting], it has a really irritating tendency to fail gradually over time, which can lead to all sorts of problems, which often seem like they are caused by something else, leading the poor frustrated individual trying to solve the mystery on a wild goose chase!
Grab yourself a copy of Memtest86 (http://www.memtest86.com/) & see if that turns up anything - if it does, then you'll need to check each stick individually, & replace the duff 1.
anyway, I think I need to leave well enough alone; it takes a lot of time fiddling with this stuff and finding out it does not work,when I really should be rendering something. :-D
Well, it's up to you, but at the very least I'd start backing up your data regularly, IIWY.
Thanks for all your help!
No probs. :) |
Post by frootee // Jun 18, 2006, 12:30pm
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frootee
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BTW... I forgot to mention that I did not have any lockup issues until I attached the second monitor, yesterday. As soon as I disconnected the 2nd monitor, the problems go away. If I reconnect, the problem comes back. And so forth.
Plus, the lockup only occurs when I use the mouse to click on something. Sounds like some sort of interrupt conflict/relationship between the mouse and the 2nd monitor. oh well. |
Post by frootee // Jul 3, 2006, 3:11pm
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frootee
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Well my system finally died. I ended up trying to update the bios; things went downhill from there. It took longer and longer to boot the computer; finally it would not boot at all.
So I replaced it today with a new Sempron 64 2800+ pretty cheaply. I was concerned that my copy of XP (OEM) would no longer work, but it did. Phew!
So now maybe I can use two monitors without trouble...
Frootee |
Post by noko // Jul 3, 2006, 3:50pm
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noko
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Let us know how it works out. I recently blew a power supply in my main computer. Hearing arching and crackling when turning on your computer was not a joy to my ears! Luckily a new power supply did the trick which I just installed, still it looks like I lost my firewire card with some USB2 ports on it. Everything else looks like its puring, fingers crossed. |
Post by Alien // Jul 10, 2006, 12:54pm
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Alien
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I was concerned that my copy of XP (OEM) would no longer work, but it did. Phew!
Had a feeling it might. ;)
Seems hardware trouble is contagious :), the reason I've not been around for the last week or so is because of a failing hard drive. It's replaced now, & did a lot of sorting out [which was really overdue & couldn't believe the amount of stuff I'd accumulated!]. |
Post by Steinie // Jul 10, 2006, 2:43pm
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Steinie
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Lots of hardware questions you were need for! :) Glad your back. |
Post by Alien // Jul 10, 2006, 4:57pm
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Alien
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Lots of hardware questions you were need for! :) Glad your back.
Thanks. :o I'll do what I can, just working my way through all the unread posts now. |
Post by TomG // Jul 10, 2006, 6:13pm
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TomG
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Funny in the last 6 months I have heard of a lot of people with hardware trouble, much more so than I ever recall before. Myself, in that time frame, have had to:
1. Remove 2 HDs out of a system with 3 HDs in it, due to one of them failing and another just being plain old, and replace those 2 them with 1 new one. Needed full OS reinstall. This was on my main machine, the rest are on the second machine.
2. Replace a graphics card where the fan seized and it burned itself out. It also took out the motherboard, which needed replacing too. Had to rig up an old 1GHz Athlon as a temporary second system in the three or four days it took to get replacement parts.
3. Replace a power supply as the old one was noisy, the bearings obviously going on the fan, so it was a matter of time before it ceased to work.
4. Replace another HD that was failing. (Same manufacturer as the drive that was failing on my main system, a Hitachi, so I don't view that as coincidence - new drives are Seagate and Western Digital, name brands all the way from now on as regards hard drives!!)
That is more in 6 months than I have had in the last 5 years - almost all my previous hardware changes, like motherboard switches etc, have been for upgrades to get more power, not due to failure.
In the same time frame I have heard of lots of people losing HDs, burning out cards, etc. Seems like "they don't make em like they used to" !
Tom |
Post by Alien // Jul 10, 2006, 7:49pm
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Alien
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Funny in the last 6 months I have heard of a lot of people with hardware trouble, much more so than I ever recall before. Myself, in that time frame, have had to:
1. Remove 2 HDs out of a system with 3 HDs in it, due to one of them failing and another just being plain old, and replace those 2 them with 1 new one. Needed full OS reinstall. This was on my main machine, the rest are on the second machine.
I was lucky, I managed to avoid a reinstall, though there was a point where I thought I was going to have to do it. My new drive is an SATA2 model, and whilst I could get XP to see it, when I was just copying stuff onto it, & sorting through stuff that needed deleting, I couldn't get my system to boot from it.
In the end it turned out that [at least with this mobo] to get it to boot from SATA, I had to enable the SATA RAID ROM option in the BIOS. I thought that was weird, as it was a sub-option for the SATA controller option, which I'd already turned on, & only had the 1 SATA drive connected. :confused:
2. Replace a graphics card where the fan seized and it burned itself out. It also took out the motherboard, which needed replacing too. Had to rig up an old 1GHz Athlon as a temporary second system in the three or four days it took to get replacement parts.
Yikes! I replaced the fan on my 9600 a few months ago, as I'd had it for... quite a while, and the bearings were starting to sound dodgy, so put on an unused ThemalTake Crystal Orb I had lying around.
3. Replace a power supply as the old one was noisy, the bearings obviously going on the fan, so it was a matter of time before it ceased to work.
Yeah, my last PSU was getting a bit noisy too, but it was the fact that my machine had trouble booting, & would lock up that made me replace it. It was a cheap P.O.S. Q-tec 550W that only cost me about £20. My current 1 [Ultra X-connect 500W] is the 1st quality PSU I've bought. Well, 2nd actually. A few years back I had a 300W 1 by.... I forget, but it still works. Rumour has it that Q-tec are actually banned in 1 European country, for [lack of] quality issues, but that's unconfirmed.
4. Replace another HD that was failing. (Same manufacturer as the drive that was failing on my main system, a Hitachi, so I don't view that as coincidence - new drives are Seagate and Western Digital, name brands all the way from now on as regards hard drives!!)
Hitachi = IBM - wouldn't touch 'em with a 10' barge pole. Well, not again anyway - had a 30GB IBM DeathStar [sic], the model that ended up being the cause of a class action suite in the US because of how many failed. As for Maxtor - well, I've only had that 1, but my friend used to swear by them, & used to put them in people's systems that he built for them, but now he won't touch them either, as apparently he's had a number go wrong. I believe that Seagate are connected to IBM/Hitachi as well, which is why I avoided getting 1 of them, although their SCSI drives are supposed to be good, but then that's an enterprise class product, & I'm guessing they'd put more effort into QC with something aimed at that market.
As for WD - well, I have 2 - 1 that was an old 12GB out of my parent's old machine, & that still works, though it's slow - but that's just cos it's only ATA-33, & although I've had the other 1 [40GB, 8MB cache, special edition] for over a year, I've only just put it in, so haven't really had it long enough to judge, but it seems fine. The 1 I wanted, if I could have waited, is the WD 500GB SATA2 with 16MB cache [£155 from Komplett], but alas that was not to be. :(
That is more in 6 months than I have had in the last 5 years - almost all my previous hardware changes, like motherboard switches etc, have been for upgrades to get more power, not due to failure.
In the same time frame I have heard of lots of people losing HDs, burning out cards, etc. Seems like "they don't make em like they used to" !
Yeah, though I haven't had much go wrong that I bought brand new <crosses fingers & touches wood>. Mostly it's been stuff that I got 2nd hand that's failed on me. [the exceptions being the IBM & Maxtor HDDs, & of course that Q-tec PSU]
Oh, I just remembered - whilst my old 17" CRT, made by Samsung, was quite nice, I wouldn't touch another optical drive made by them. The DVDRW I had was a pain in the arse. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 11, 2006, 2:03am
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W!ZARD
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That is more in 6 months than I have had in the last 5 years - almost all my previous hardware changes, like motherboard switches etc, have been for upgrades to get more power, not due to failure.
In the same time frame I have heard of lots of people losing HDs, burning out cards, etc. Seems like "they don't make em like they used to" !
Tom
I'm no technical wiz but I can't help wondering about the fact that modern pooters operate so much faster than they did 5 or 6 years ago. Not only faster but with more bells and whistles on them which equates to more things to go wrong.
Additionally, new generation software often uses more computing power (tS7?) and therefore would theoretically stress componentry more. Just a passing thought really... |
Post by hemulin // Jul 11, 2006, 3:07am
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hemulin
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Not only faster but with more bells and whistles on them which equates to more things to go wrong.
I can relate to that :( |
Post by Alien // Jul 11, 2006, 4:47am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I'm no technical wiz but I can't help wondering about the fact that modern pooters operate so much faster than they did 5 or 6 years ago. Not only faster but with more bells and whistles on them which equates to more things to go wrong.
True, however newer hardware also has safety/reliability/etc improvements that older hardware didn't have.
Additionally, new generation software often uses more computing power (tS7?) and therefore would theoretically stress componentry more. Just a passing thought really...
Not really an issue unless the component/system isn't sufficiently cooled. |
Post by TomG // Jul 11, 2006, 10:04am
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TomG
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Hi all,
On the HD reliability issue, I read lots of reviews over on Newegg to pick the drives and went with what the customers seemed to like, ie Seagate and Western Digital (the first an ATA, the second a SATA 2).
One of the drives I pulled from the main system was a 4Gb Seagate that I have had in the machine for the last 8 years or so :) This was the boot disk - didnt have the OS on it, but was still required to boot, as it had lived through the various system changes. It gave me no trouble at all, and I only removed it since 4Gb is useless these days :)
The other disk still in my main system is a Maxtor, only about 4 years old, but has been trouble free.
Both Hitachi drives were about 2 years old, and they began corrupting data on save, a very bad thing, as it was invisible. I lost part of Windows OS once and had to repair. They also began making the machines hang, they would go "errrkkkk" and then the machines would begin to play up, with the mouse pointer sticking every 3 seconds, or just a lock up.
Very unpleasant, and so far the only HD manufacturer I have had genuine problems with. It may just have been bad luck of course, and all this is just my personal experience (nothing to do with Caligari), but it can be useful to hear the experiences of others. So far though Maxtor, Seagate and Western Digital seem to be fine :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Alien // Jul 11, 2006, 10:12am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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TomG: Which WD did you get [size, I mean]? Before my Maxtor died I'd been planning on getting the 400, but after reading 1 of those articles that tests various models in Computer Shopper, I decided that I wanted the 500GB 1, as apparently it has consistently good performance for both read & write of both small & large files, whereas apparently the 400 & smaller models weren't so good with smaller files [also true of models by other mfrs in the test as well].
Sadly the Maxtor died when it did, so I had to get the Samsung, so can't really justify another HDD any time soon, especially with proTeam renewal coming up. |
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