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Jul 11, 2005, 1:00am

Hmmm...good point Builderz......If fact you all have good points but I'm not
listening to them (no offense)...and I'll tell you why. Don't take any of
this personally one side or the other, please. It is meant as factual for
litigation not as a reprimand or praise for any party involved.

Guys and gals, just for the record, "libel" is "written or recorded
slander".
"Slander contains a twofold malice, that which grows out of damage unjustly
done to our neighbor's good name."

Keyword here is "unjustly". Some businesses in this world, a majority, in
fact, use a predatory model. For instance, WelMart offers a DVD Player for
$10 and in fine print, somewhat obscure, it says "pay $100 up front, and
then send in for rebate"....How many of you have had difficulty trying to
get your rebate? That's passive predatory practice. I don't agree with it
but I live with it as you do because it is legal. If I called Welmart a
bunch of bad names because I didn't get my rebate, we don't think twice
about it but, If I went on the radio and announced that they are thieves and
thus the entire population stayed away from buying there, I would be hauled
into court in a minute. My slanderous, yet possible truthful remark had
UNJUSTLY damaged Welmart.

Now, the issue here lies, what damages were done to the buyer in a
transaction and does the "comments that allege slander" UNJUSTLY damage the
modeler here? How much has the modeler lost in relation to what the buyer
has lost? I see a buyer who THINKS their models have been sold to others
even though they were custom. If they allege that, I would hope that it can
be backed up (no offense meant here, just legal facts)... On the other hand,
if the modeler in question has taken the property from a copyrighted source,
two things can occur. 1. The modeler will be guilty of copyright
infringement which is an issue between the copyright holder and the modeler.
"No discussion should take place outside of the two primary parties lest
there be culpability on the third party also.". or 2. The modeler will break
the copyright with one of the many legal loopholes that have been revealed
in regards to copyright law. An expense to perform but very feasible. One
thing should be noted here. If the modeler breaks the existing copyright,
the buyer is now not only slanderous but also libel. What's the major
difference between the 2? About 2 million dollars in punitive damages.

Okay, what I see here is some people who feel they have been wronged due to
a predatory practice. I know you don't want to hear this but, Guess what?
You're not the first ones to feel that way in this world, I'm sorry to say.
The key here is.....did the modeler try to set things right? Did the modeler
attempt restitution? Via, a refund, alteration to design, etc..... IF I WERE
THE MODELER, I MAY OFFER EXTRA ACCESSORIES, ETC. TO COMPENSATE FOR THE
ACCIDENTAL MISUSE OF CUSTOM DESIGNED PROPERTIES THAT TRANSFERRED LICENSE TO
THE BUYER. BUT THAT'S JUST ME. (oops, how'd those caps get there?)

I'm not comfortable siding with either party in this transaction and I for
one will not take part in a verbal feud where just about everyone seems to
be kicking their feet and flailing their hands. Let's step back a second and
look at what we are trying to do here in activeworlds. I don't think there
is one modeler out there who wouldn't agree that making models for someone
not just gives a small monetary compensation but gives the modeler feelings
of good will, a feeling of accomplishment, and the knowledge that they are
being constructive in some way. But most of all, when a buyer says, "I love
it"..or "It's perfect"...gives the modeler a good feeling inside. No modeler
has specifically set out to scroo anyone. By the same token, I've seen
citizens not stand up for their rights and later say they didn't like
something on a model they bought and then turn around and badmouth the
modeler. (Which really hurts a modeler by the way). No modeler is trying to
hurt anyone...we're here because we want to help you and your worlds while
getting a small pat on the back in return. It's obviously not for the money.

An avatar takes an extremely long time to make. Ask any good avatar maker in
activeworlds. Since my start with activeworlds 18 months ago, I have seen
the extremely well done avatars go from $75 down to $10...What's wrong with
this picture? I've seen avatarists literally crying about how their rent is
going to be paid when they had to sell an avatar for less than 1/3 it's
value and the citizens saying "wow, that avatarist ripped me off". Let's get
a true perspective on what's going on here. If you went to an art gallery
and bought an oil painting, even by an unknown artist, you should expect to
pay AT A MINIMUM $100. What's the difference between someone creating a
texture with a mouse and creating a texture with a paintbrush? Not much.
Yet, the average avatar has several canvases (textures) plus the hours and
hours it took to create a 3d mesh which if you're not aware, sometimes
requires the same amount of mathematical ability as getting the apollo IX in
space.lol. And you get to buy them for just $10 most of the time. (which is
a shame.) Why did this happen? Why are they only $10? Because of comments by
people who feel they have been wrongly treated. The newsgroups are a venue
that cause wildfires. The modelers have to keep lowering their prices just
to keep the few customers that stick with them. Many primary modelers have
left activeworlds or stopped selling models (and refuse to give them away
too). Activeworld citizens have driven out some of the top modelers here.
Remember, not everyone makes models as well as Starheart, Diane, Insanity,
Elysium and others.....as a matter of fact, most modelers get burnt out
after a short time. they just don't have what it takes. So if anyone thinks
that there's always a new modeler up and coming....take a look at who made
the models you like most. I guarantee it's someone who has been working at
this for years. A professional. And, when they are gone....so are any new
models in that league.

I've heard discussion about certain modelers saying 'they cant afford food,
they cant pay for gas, etc.' and someone turns around and states things like
they are lying. I wont make any comments on either side but just beware
again of the fact that once something is written in the newsgroups, it goes
from slander to libel. I don't think in this case that the modeler harms
anyone by saying they cant afford to eat but I do believe there are
multitudes of damages applied when someone calls the modeler a liar or
"eludes to that transgression". The person who makes such remarks should be
ashamed. They are just saying these things for attention obviously. Doesn't
that person realize that every year hundreds of kids are knocking on doors
saying "I'm trying to earn my way through college" when they weren't even
accepted to college to begin with? lol. Should we slam the door on them?

I'd like to suggest 2 new newsgroups. One called "gripes and groans" which I
would implore everyone NOT to read, and the other "praises and thanks" to
which every new citizen should get automatic subscription. THIS NEWSGROUP,
on the other hand is called "community", and this posting of mine and all
the others before it, don't belong here.







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Jul 11, 2005, 5:23am

Pelican,

Yours was an OUTSTANDING post, and your point(s) were very well taken. Thank
you for taking the time to post such a well-written, well-thought-out
response. I have to agree that gripes/groans and the like have NO place
here, but, pardon my insistence as a "where else if not here?" mentality
takes hold of my wayward fingers and forces me to share my unhappy
experience.

Granted, these forums are not the IDEAL place to post my tale of business
woe, however, I still MUST stand by my belief that it is my DUTY as a
long-standing, contributing, rule-abiding citizen of the AW community to
share any information that may save others any undue emotional and/or
financial hardship. After all, if all I wanted to accomplish was complaining
without good reason, I could do that at the gate. =o)

That said, four things have happened since I last posted:

1) I have found a new modeler who offers good, simple work for a fair (for
both of us) price. I have great hope that our relationship will continue
along positive lines and that ours will be a long-lasting and prosperous
partnership.

2) I have -- in an attempt to set the libel and slander record straight --
located the ORIGINAL copyrighted source of all of the meshes that I
previously had questions about. (It turns out that all of PyroGodess
"original, custom" avatars are, in fact, 5-minute .mdl to .rwx file
conversions from the game Neverwinter Nights and its many incarnations.)
That makes me sad, but, I can't say it was unexpected.

3) I have contacted AW again and also contacted bioware (the maker of
Neverwinter Nights) and disclosed what I know. Converting the files for
personal use? I'm sure that was OK. However, RE-SELLING the meshes as
original, custom works might present PyroGoddess with a problem. At this
point, I'm leaving it in the capable hands of both AW and bioware. I'm sure
they'll know what to do from here.

4) I've learned a very valuable lesson about trusting people and taking them
at face value.

*heavy sigh* So, what to do now? I paid $360.00 for six avatars that I now
KNOW are stolen.

Knowing that, I can't very well use them in good-faith, can I?

So, ya' think 'PyroGoddess' will refund my $360.00?

Thanks again for posting, Pelican.

Coree

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Jul 11, 2005, 6:23am

OK, case closed...

No need for any more of these posts aye? Good! I am glad you agree with me.

--
- Mark Randall
http://zetech.swehli.com

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Jul 11, 2005, 9:55am

and as you Well know.. She aint, the Only Modeler that has ever Stoal,d
Something uh pelly?


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Jul 11, 2005, 12:02pm

I stand informed.
Thank you Coree


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Jul 11, 2005, 12:03pm

Be careful queen mandriq...er...ramel

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