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TS7 User Interface
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
TS7 User Interface // Roundtable
Post by splinters // May 10, 2006, 10:28pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Now that TS7 is out and a lot of the tweaks necessary from 7.0 have been addressed in 7.1 I thought it might be a good time to look objectively again.
Please note that this is not an official request-I am just curious and would like some user feedback.
With that in mind, what are your thoughts on the UI? Think layout, icons, workflow etc. anything really but can we keep this positive and professional; there is still work to do for 7.5 and it would be nice to get feedback from the community that could be fed back to Roman and the developers.
Just so you don't think I am biased, I will start with a few of my own;
1. Make those tiny icons bigger or include the option to add the bigger toolbar more easily.
2. Expandable and collapsible toolbars-that can be minimised to one single icon.
3. There will be more....;) |
Post by KeithC // May 11, 2006, 5:31am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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I thought Roman said that he was going to bring back the expandable tool bars with the release of version 7.1? After that thread where everyone voted on bringing it back; and he agreed to put it back in. In closing, I can't comment as there is still no demo;)
-Keith |
Post by spacekdet // May 11, 2006, 6:24am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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Anyone else beginning to get the feeling that Keith is perhaps interested in a demo?
I'll second that... a demo, even if it runs like crap on my creaky old machine, would be better than nothing. |
Post by xmanflash // May 11, 2006, 6:32am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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I thought Roman said that he was going to bring back the expandable tool bars with the release of version 7.1? After that thread where everyone voted on bringing it back; and he agreed to put it back in. In closing, I can't comment as there is still no demo;)
-Keith
I vote to bring back the expandable toolbars. It was definately quicker for me. |
Post by GraySho // May 11, 2006, 9:50am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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My biggest complaint is that the UI feels like a patchwork. I don't know how to explain it better but that's how it feels to me.
The icons, honestly, are not my taste. This is nothing personal, just my preference of things. Less is more. Less color, less "plastic" look. The use of color could be better to recognise the function of the button. Selection tools greenish, library buttons blueish, create (obj, light) buttons redish etc.
I pretty much like the style of the icons in modo. Since it is possible customize nearly anything, I might try to do my own one day. Maybe one day we have a library with "truespace themes" like there are themes for the windows os.
The UV-Editor should be in a seperate window too. This way we can save a layout, let's say just for uv mapping, and the mapper doesn't cover the workspace. UV-mapper and 3d-workspace should interact with each other. That means, when I select a face in workspace, that same face is selected in the uv-editor.
Having more and more windows, it might be useful to be able to switch each window to each mode. Let's say, not just player and modeler as it is now, but 3D Workspace (I don't like the word Player), UV-Mapper, Link Editor, Command Prompt, KFE and so on. If you combine that with an alternative way to create new windows, you could save the icons for creating new windows (again, less is more). The alternative I have in mind is a right click on a window border to split windows (like in blender).
The navigation widget....could be integrated into the header of each window. Instead of a 3d-object that is taking up space in the workspace, we could have 3 simple buttons, pan, rotate and zoom. Does exactly the same, and you don't have to carefully pick the right handle to navigate.
Widgets have to be optional. Please don't force us to use them. Many times they hide parts of the object that I want to edit.
The ground plane should be switchable like before, grid or solid. I would also like to see grids in front and side views (xz plane and yz plane). In perspective view I find it rather disturbing, but in front and side view it makes perfect sense.
Give us presets for solid, semitransparent and wireframe. I know I can adjust it in player to my liking, but I can't make keyboard shortcuts. I switch a lot, and use keyboard shortcuts to speed up that process.
Expandable icongroups. I have to repeat what others have said before. Please bring it back Truespace was called innovative because you can do everything with icons and every function was just one click away.
Now in point edit, you have to navigate through branches of icons to find the function needed. Sometimes I have to wait for the icon info to pop up to know what they do. So where is the advantage over a text based menu (mmh, that sentence also was a rant about the icons :rolleyes: )
So, that's it for now. I'm sure I have more, but I'm getting hungry :D |
Post by stoker // May 11, 2006, 11:18am
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stoker
Total Posts: 506
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The icons, honestly, are not my taste. This is nothing personal, just my preference of things. Less is more. Less color, less "plastic" look. The use of color could be better to recognise the function of the button. Selection tools greenish, library buttons blueish, create (obj, light) buttons redish etc.
One of the things I really do like about TS7 is the icons.....come on they have got to be better than TS6.6 and earlier versions. :) |
Post by Alien // May 11, 2006, 11:31am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I thought Roman said that he was going to bring back the expandable tool bars with the release of version 7.1? After that thread where everyone voted on bringing it back; and he agreed to put it back in
Indeed he did, however, [IIRC] back then what they were calling 7.1 is now called 7.5, & what they were calling 7.02 got renamed to 7.1.
The UV-Editor should be in a seperate window too. This way we can save a layout, let's say just for uv mapping, and the mapper doesn't cover the workspace. UV-mapper and 3d-workspace should interact with each other. That means, when I select a face in workspace, that same face is selected in the uv-editor.
Yup, definitely agree with this 1.
Widgets have to be optional. Please don't force us to use them. Many times they hide parts of the object that I want to edit.
I know they do that in the modeler, but I thought someone from Caligari said they don't do that in the new side [I don't like the name Player either :(].
The ground plane should be switchable like before, grid or solid. I would also like to see grids in front and side views (xz plane and yz plane). In perspective view I find it rather disturbing, but in front and side view it makes perfect sense.
The ground plane thing Roman's already said is something that should be pretty easy & quick to do, so with a bit of luck we might get it in 7.2. As to the the grids in front/back & left/right views, good idea [assuming we can quickly turn them on or off].
Give us presets for solid, semitransparent and wireframe. I know I can adjust it in player to my liking, but I can't make keyboard shortcuts. I switch a lot, and use keyboard shortcuts to speed up that process.
Yup, I'm all for the presets idea [infact I brought it up in another thread the other day :)] |
Post by GraySho // May 11, 2006, 12:24pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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As to the the grids in front/back & left/right views, good idea (assuming we can quickly turn them on or off).
I agree. The more options there are, the more users are satisfied.
One more thought.
The stack view is a good invention and has a lot of potential to increase workflow. Example: When in point edit mode, settings (like selection-, sweep-, bevel settings) are displayed in stack view upon right click. I've seen there are two new icons for the selection options (select all/first elements in view direction). If all the settings are to be adjusted by icons, we will end up with hundreds of icons just for point edit. Bad. Increases the learning curve, even for truespace veterans, and decreases workflow. |
Post by Heidi // May 11, 2006, 1:34pm
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Heidi
Total Posts: 335
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OOoo... a wishlist
I'd like an object tool and object info for the player view. I keep having to flip back and forth between model and player for precise adjustments.
Also in player view... I'd like the ability to expand/pin the context toolbar and dock it, as can be done in model view.
When editing an object in the player, I'd like to be able to move the widget and stay there. It always seems to be in exactly the wrong spot for me.
One of the most frustrating things for me with TS7 is that I can't output my results in player to a file. I tend to just duck into player to use the new modelling tools then duck back into modelling view.
In modelling view... If I file-load a library, nothing happens... I'd like to be able to use multiple libraries as in 6.6.
I know the node editor is really slick but I don't want to click down 27 levels and be able to program TS inner workings to apply a simple texture. To be perfectly honest, I'd prefer to not have to use the node editor at all. |
Post by Alien // May 11, 2006, 2:48pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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The stack view is a good invention and has a lot of potential to increase workflow.
True... if only they'd make it scroll with the http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/swear.gif mousewheel! :mad: I've been requesting they do that for months, but it always seems to fall on deaf ears. Sadly an increased level of mouse functionality doesn't seem to have a very high priority with Caligari. I know Caligari will disagree with me, but the ability to scroll something in a piece of software that has a scrollbar with a mouse wheel is almost ubiquitous, which IMO makes the lack of it in tS as good [or bad, depending on your point of view] as a bug.
I'd like an object tool and object info for the player view. I keep having to flip back and forth between model and player for precise adjustments.
I think everyone wants that, & I seem to recall 1 of the Caligarians saying that it's on the to-do list. The funny thing is, if 1 of the code-savvy tS7 users wanted to, they could create it. Sadly, I don't have a knack for programming, otherwise I'd do it. :(
One of the most frustrating things for me with TS7 is that I can't output my results in player to a file. I tend to just duck into player to use the new modelling tools then duck back into modelling view.
You can, not with lightworks, VL, or Vray, but you can do a sort-of render from the player view - this feature was added in 7.1. Read page 931 of the updated manual for more details.The Real-time player window is now capable of rendering to file. The rendered image contains all of the features enabled in the player such as, anti-aliasing or post-processing. The final image does not contain widgets. Render to file also supports resolutions higher than those available for screens (such as 2048x2048), the only limitation is the graphics hardware. |
Post by Heidi // May 11, 2006, 4:39pm
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Heidi
Total Posts: 335
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You can, not with lightworks, VL, or Vray, but you can do a sort-of render from the player view - this feature was added in 7.1. Read page 931 of the updated manual for more details.
Oh!... awesome... I'd completely missed that. I'd been watching for it too. I just tried it and it works great. Thanks a lot. :) |
Post by bill // May 11, 2006, 8:50pm
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bill
Total Posts: 114
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I would like to see snaps implemented.
Drawing lines or curves Snap to:
Grid
Vertex
Midpoint of edge
Divide point (set the number of divisions of an edge to snap to)
Center of face
Center of circle or ellipse
Quadrant of circle
Tangent to curve
Projection of a face plane
Modeling Snaps:
Vertex to Grid
Vertex to Vertex
Vertex to Edge
Vertex to Divide point
Vertex to Face
Edge to Edge
Face to Face
There may be others I didn't think about.
Sculpting tools:
I have never seen this but I can envision it. Change to sculpt mode. The cursor changes to a widget that looks like various sculpting tools, like tools used to shape clay or wood. Click a palette of tools to select various shapes. Click and hold the right mouse button while dragging to change the size of the tool or enter the size in a dialog box. Use the tools to cut away material. Hold the Shift key and the tool adds material rather than cutting it away. |
Post by KeithC // May 12, 2006, 2:00am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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A grid that snaps like Cartography Shop would greatly enhance the usability of Truespace when constructing buildings/levels.
-Keith |
Post by chrono // May 12, 2006, 4:55am
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chrono
Total Posts: 0
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Wouldn't this be better in the features request forum. |
Post by splinters // May 12, 2006, 7:14am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Wouldn't this be better in the features request forum.
It could but as I said this is not an official line nor is it a features request; more of a UI workflow thing-more about tweaking what is there rather than adding new features.
Of course, feel free to start a similar feature related thread but I just wanted some feedback on the UI; the look and feel of the program now it has been used by a wider group...:) |
Post by xmanflash // May 12, 2006, 7:25am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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My biggest complaint is that the UI feels like a patchwork. I don't know how to explain it better but that's how it feels to me.
The icons, honestly, are not my taste. This is nothing personal, just my preference of things. Less is more. Less color, less "plastic" look. The use of color could be better to recognise the function of the button. Selection tools greenish, library buttons blueish, create (obj, light) buttons redish etc.
I pretty much like the style of the icons in modo. Since it is possible customize nearly anything, I might try to do my own one day. Maybe one day we have a library with "truespace themes" like there are themes for the windows os.
The UV-Editor should be in a seperate window too. This way we can save a layout, let's say just for uv mapping, and the mapper doesn't cover the workspace. UV-mapper and 3d-workspace should interact with each other. That means, when I select a face in workspace, that same face is selected in the uv-editor.
Having more and more windows, it might be useful to be able to switch each window to each mode. Let's say, not just player and modeler as it is now, but 3D Workspace (I don't like the word Player), UV-Mapper, Link Editor, Command Prompt, KFE and so on. If you combine that with an alternative way to create new windows, you could save the icons for creating new windows (again, less is more). The alternative I have in mind is a right click on a window border to split windows (like in blender).
The navigation widget....could be integrated into the header of each window. Instead of a 3d-object that is taking up space in the workspace, we could have 3 simple buttons, pan, rotate and zoom. Does exactly the same, and you don't have to carefully pick the right handle to navigate.
Widgets have to be optional. Please don't force us to use them. Many times they hide parts of the object that I want to edit.
The ground plane should be switchable like before, grid or solid. I would also like to see grids in front and side views (xz plane and yz plane). In perspective view I find it rather disturbing, but in front and side view it makes perfect sense.
Give us presets for solid, semitransparent and wireframe. I know I can adjust it in player to my liking, but I can't make keyboard shortcuts. I switch a lot, and use keyboard shortcuts to speed up that process.
Expandable icongroups. I have to repeat what others have said before. Please bring it back Truespace was called innovative because you can do everything with icons and every function was just one click away.
Now in point edit, you have to navigate through branches of icons to find the function needed. Sometimes I have to wait for the icon info to pop up to know what they do. So where is the advantage over a text based menu (mmh, that sentence also was a rant about the icons :rolleyes: )
So, that's it for now. I'm sure I have more, but I'm getting hungry :D
I have to say I agree 100% with all that.. |
Post by splinters // May 12, 2006, 8:05am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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The icons, honestly, are not my taste. This is nothing personal, just my preference of things. Less is more. Less color, less "plastic" look. The use of color could be better to recognise the function of the button. Selection tools greenish, library buttons blueish, create (obj, light) buttons redish etc.
Where reinvention of icons was possible I did do this, for instance all the PE tools are Grey and Orange in colour. Many of the other icons were quickly reinvented simply to match the new UI as the old ones were a different size and Roman really wanted a new (yet familiar) look to the UI. You will see in player that the creation of completely new icons follows this colour scheme better.
Icons are not to everyone's taste but, of course, I am biased...but there is still room for improvement...:) |
Post by GraySho // May 12, 2006, 8:48am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Icons are not to everyone's taste but, of course, I am biased...but there is still room for improvement...:)
Exactly. I don't want to put down your work splinters. Personal taste. |
Post by splinters // May 12, 2006, 8:53am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Exactly. I don't want to put down your work splinters. Personal taste.
Thanks GraySho. Folks seem to think I take comments personally-I don't. I did a design job like any other contract.
However, I find myself continuing with the changes to UI but with less pressure for deadlines now TS7.1 is out and I really want to take user opinions into consideration wherever possible.
Honest, objective answers like this will make it much easier....:) |
Post by optimiztic // May 12, 2006, 12:33pm
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optimiztic
Total Posts: 43
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I, for one, really love having the new icons. I always have a difficult time remembering what they all do, and the clarity of the new, larger images makes it a lot easier.
Contract or not, you did a great job, splinters, and your contribution is one of the most pleasing aspects of the new interface.
Don |
Post by chrono // May 12, 2006, 12:54pm
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chrono
Total Posts: 0
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Makes sense.
Ok, since I don't have 7 do the icons rescale at different resolutions or are they static??? I've seen this as something of a problem for alot of progs.
SILO probably has one of the best ways of customizing an interface. Since it not only allows you to change the icons(every command can be iconed), except for the widget(right now), but also their placement on the screen and options. I'd love to see that, but won't hold out hope for it. :)
Sadly most of my other suggestions won't be doable within the current interface, need new programming, or require complete removal/replacement of icons. But I mostly agree with GraySho, however I'd love to have a zoom control that acted like a 2D programs!! Saw that in Shade and it's VERY nice. |
Post by Alien // May 12, 2006, 1:37pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Ok, since I don't have 7 do the icons rescale at different resolutions or are they static??? I've seen this as something of a problem for alot of progs.
AFAIK, static, but anyone can change them. If you wanted to you could take screenshots of <insert other 3D app name here>, & use their icon images in tS. The size is also modifiable [which is why Splinters was able to make that bigger version of the view aspect toolbar]. I'm sure Splinters will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it doesn't even require any coding, just need to learn your way around the Link Editor.
Having said that, Clintonman made a script which makes installing the new/bigger version of that toolbar easier, so I assume that could be adapted for other toolbars. It's probably only a matter of time before someone [either Caligari or somebody else who has tS7] comes up with some sort of GUI type script thingy for creating, modifying & installing toolbars/buttons.
SILO probably has one of the best ways of customizing an interface. Since it not only allows you to change the icons(every command can be iconed), except for the widget(right now), but also their placement on the screen and options. I'd love to see that, but won't hold out hope for it. :)
From everything I know about tS7, that doesn't sound outside of the realms of possibility.
But I mostly agree with GraySho, however I'd love to have a zoom control that acted like a 2D programs!! Saw that in Shade and it's VERY nice.
If you mean what I think you do [zoom to cursor - I'm thinking of Paint Shop Pro here], then I think someone from Caligari already said it's on the to-do list. |
Post by splinters // May 12, 2006, 2:22pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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You are right Alien, I could just as easily made 64x64 icons if necessary. And you hardly have to dig into the LE to make the changes either.
I dabbled with the idea of making custom icon sets; minimal line icons like sketchup or simple two colour icons like Hexagon then releasing them so you could customise yout UI but I just don't have the time...plus I like the way the player icons are headed anyway and they should be indicative of icons for newer versions.
Nothing to stop anyone customising their UI though...and I am happy to help you do it...:D
Oh, and Chrono, they are static. |
Post by chrono // May 12, 2006, 2:33pm
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chrono
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It's a bummer that their static, but that's one of those 'nice' things to have. It kinda falls under "I should do that anyways." type of ideal.
Now on the interface being completely customizable. From what I've heard such wholesale change wasn't gonna be possible for the 7 series, too many other items to address. Besides it would also require alot more changes then to the interface. It would also require changes to the way TS handles hotkeys and mouse commands.
And yes that's the zoom I'm talking about!! Marry that with a built-in frame to highlighted/selection and that's at least 1 less icon and a MUCH faster/easier multi tool. |
Post by splinters // May 12, 2006, 2:44pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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And yes that's the zoom I'm talking about!! Marry that with a built-in frame to highlighted/selection and that's at least 1 less icon and a MUCH faster/easier multi tool.
Mmmmm.....;) |
Post by chrono // May 12, 2006, 6:11pm
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Total Posts: 0
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I think that removing the icons from the work area itself would be a good step forward from the viewpoint of have those stacked trays which could easily hold them all or are already present in the widget. The screen space is already being used anyways! ;) But even if that's, for some reason, not possible then many of those icon commands should be moved to a Right-click menu that disappears from view after starting the command without moving around pop-up's or hiding the on-screen tooling. Doing either would remove over 12 icons(all the various ones that move/rotate, bevel, tip, extrudes, etc..).
Also you may what to think about allowing the same tool that selects objects to also deselect when it's clicked on an geometry 'empty' part of the screen. And along that line getting rid of the 'base' selection tool would reduce the amount of switching between selection types, because one of the other types would always be on and since you still can single selct in paint select mode you really lose next to nothing.... well except an extra step.
I'd also change the lay-out of the widgets so they're more clear. Right now the various re-sizing, rotating, Taper, Bend, and 1-3 others are difficult to control or are based on 2D ideas that don't work well in 3D. For example the scaling version is great in 2D, but because of it's uniform shape and color changing dependance it's fairly difficult to control quickly and easly. The Bend & Taper widgets are even worse because they not suffer the same problems as scaling, but also the controls are centered and well away from what you want to control. You also lose some needed fine control. Might as well make them really useful if your user is gonna be using shaded mode alot! ;)
OH BTW... did 7 get back face culling?
Now this maybe coming(I haven't seen it mentioned though!), but do the faces, edges, & vertexs finally have their own axis's or do they still use the objects? :confused: |
Post by stan // May 13, 2006, 5:54am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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Alien..loading custom toolbars is easier in ts7.1..but the large version of toolbar has trouble if it is in RTS Bar_TSAspectBar form..try this..import this toolbar to UI/WM then open your layouts "Windows Manager space" drag the toolbar into LE from library, restart truespace..the toolbar should appear.. |
Post by Alien // May 13, 2006, 6:50am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Alien..loading custom toolbars is easier in ts7.1..but the large version of toolbar has trouble if it is in RTS Bar_TSAspectBar form..try this..import this toolbar to UI/WM then open your layouts "Windows Manager space" drag the toolbar into LE from library, restart truespace..the toolbar should appear..
That certainly is simpler, thanks for that. :cool: |
Post by trueBlue // Jun 1, 2006, 7:32am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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I do not see any reasons why trueSpace7 could not come with a default workspace optimized for a 1024 x 768 resolution. I have customized all layouts in such a way that all icons are not hidden. I also renamed most of the layouts. I strived to place the toolbars consistently in the same general area in all layouts. One thing I do not like about this setup though, is that I had to have the Preference opened to save the layout. For instance the Full layout. Tell me what you think? Here is the link: http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=858 |
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