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A more perfect union
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
A more perfect union // Roundtable
Post by jamesmc // May 13, 2006, 9:39am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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That's funny, I seem to recall it worked quite well in convincing Roman to change his mind about the issue of maximising toolbars.
<edit>
It just occurred to me that you might have been talking about the reputation system, & not the ability to create polls. If that's the case, I still say you're wrong, as it makes it easier for the reader to see how much credibility the poster has & factor that into their interpretation of the post.
</edit>
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if I assigned negative reputation points to all of your posts reducing your credibility to zero?
I agree with Chrono on this issue, assigning reputations points can be abused. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 13, 2006, 9:46am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Try it and you'll see it doesn't work that way. Reputation is not accumilated on a post by post basis. At least not beyond 2 or 3 per account. It truly is based on inputs from multiple different accounts.
I'd agree that a poll would be a more constructive way to organize feedback. |
Post by jamesmc // May 13, 2006, 10:19am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Try it and you'll see it doesn't work that way. Reputation is not accumilated on a post by post basis. At least not beyond 2 or 3 per account. It truly is based on inputs from multiple different accounts.
I'd agree that a poll would be a more constructive way to organize feedback.
You do know that V-Bulletin board is hackable and has been hacked in the past. It would be very easy to arrange almost anything on this version of the board.
Besides, assigning reputation points could be the 'good ol' boy' assignment of values. For example, if a group of people from the U.K. for instance got together and decided they can't stand those 'bloody stupid Americans', it would be a matter of collusion to abuse the rating system.
And if people insist on giving me a bad reputation, I'll take my business else where if this kind of abuse continues. I will also let about twenty other graphic boards and online societies I belong to that Caligari abuses their customers by allowing their reputation to be ruined. I'm sure a court of law would be very interested in hearing about such things. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 13, 2006, 10:38am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Perhaps the courts will assign Fox Mulder to investigate this assumed conspiracy. :rolleyes: |
Post by jamesmc // May 13, 2006, 10:49am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Perhaps the courts will assign Fox Mulder to investigate this assumed conspiracy. :rolleyes:
Perhaps you shouldn't even begin to mock me. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 13, 2006, 11:09am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Whatever. If you want to make this personal then spare everyone else the trouble and private message me instead. Otherwise, save your veiled threats for another day. |
Post by jamesmc // May 13, 2006, 11:14am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Whatever. If you want to make this personal then spare everyone else the trouble and private message me instead.
I'm not the one who made it personal now did I?
Okay, here's the deal. I've had it with this forum.
Thanks for making up my mind not to buy any more Caligari Products.
I was going to buy all their anipaks that were on sale.
Instead I will be using all of that money towards another product.
Good job, are you happy now with your victory?
This time I'm gone for good. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 13, 2006, 11:53am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Please take responsibility for your own decisions. |
Post by splinters // May 13, 2006, 12:38pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Please take responsibility for your own decisions.
To some extent this is true. While someone here may have 'wound you up' with their opinion it does not reflect Caligari's attitude to it's customers. It is unlikely that a member of the Caligari team would continue with such a thread and this, after all, is a public forum.
The choice to leave has to be yours alone. But if you choose to take that path I wish you luck in your future ventures...:( |
Post by Alien // May 13, 2006, 12:42pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if I assigned negative reputation points to all of your posts reducing your credibility to zero?
You're welcome to try. Obviously you don't know what you're talking about or you'd know that wasn't possible.
And if people insist on giving me a bad reputation, I'll take my business else where if this kind of abuse continues.
I'm sure you'll be missed. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/cry2.gif
I will also let about twenty other graphic boards and online societies I belong to that Caligari abuses their customers by allowing their reputation to be ruined. I'm sure a court of law would be very interested in hearing about such things.
... & when denizens of said boards come here to see what all the fuss is about, read your posts, & you start getting a negative rep or just ignored on those boards, will you sue them too? :rolleyes:
Perhaps the courts will assign Fox Mulder to investigate this assumed conspiracy. :rolleyes:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/busted_red.gif http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/aliensmilie.gif |
Post by ToxicFrog // May 13, 2006, 1:43pm
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ToxicFrog
Total Posts: 17
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Let's take a couple of deep breaths and calm down, everyone.
Though I agree the comment about the court of law is pretty damn funny! :D |
Post by roman // May 13, 2006, 10:06pm
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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First I want to remind you guys that this forum was created for the purpose of professional discussion of production issues related to 3D Graphics and trueSpace, engaging in personal fights can only get you thrown out of this forum.
To get back on the topic of style based IK I am including a paper which explains it: http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/styleik/
As of yet no commercial product use Style based IK. Please coment on it. If you do not understand it, is OK, we would like to get your more general opinion about animation features you need in 7.5 too. Our goal with 7.5 is to deliver tangible user benefits in animation (but also in modeling and rendering), first and foremost, no more "revolutionary architecture" talk. Some people made very valid point that platform itself is of no importance to them unless tangible benefits are delivered with it and character animation was among the features requested most.
The larger issue here is what is more important: ease of creating overall motion for characters or detailed manual control over individual key-frames. Of course both requirements are not mutualy exclusive but we need to know what is more important for each of you. Do not be hasty with the answer, read the article first (or at least watch the videos). |
Post by xmanflash // May 14, 2006, 12:57am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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Do not be hasty with the answer, read the article first (or at least watch the videos).
Hi Roman, it looks brilliant (I'm half way through the videos), and I would hope would include the following..
1. Set the posed charactor in a start position, then drop a movement style (with repeat/loop - i.e. walk cycle) on it with a movement direction, and stretch/compress the distance of motion
2. That multiple styles are blendable
3. That there is a 'gound surface' feature that makes the charactors appendages go no lower than the ground itself.. in other words, a collision and gravity style calculation on the 'puppet'
4. Custom Style 'Mods' i.e. a limp added to a walk style..
5. All scriptable !!
I'll watch the rest of the videos now, but those came to mind.. |
Post by KeithC // May 14, 2006, 2:26am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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I want to know if this new animation is going to be exportable in .X format for game use (otherwise it is useless to me). GameSpace is still lacking the attention it needs.
-Keith |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 14, 2006, 3:29am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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The videos do look impressive. Haven't read the PDF document yet so I'm not sure exactly how the system is initially trained but I do like the results!
lol. Some of my IK efforts to date look like their "without style-based IK" example in the beginning of the Siggraph video.
I wonder in general how some of these animations could be translated from one method to another such as "finalizing" an animation by converting it to direct keyframes. If one wanted to be efficient, there might be a smart way of doing the conversion such that keyframes within a certain tolerance (angle and position) could be dropped for efficiency. Maybe that might help to address the .x format export question.
I see this as a really good thing, especially for roughing-in a character position with small tweaks to make it suit the specifics of the scene.
P.K. |
Post by GraySho // May 14, 2006, 6:01am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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What is most important to me, is that everything can be keyframed to refine the animation manually, and add secondary animation. This is even more important, if the character has to interact with other objects.
All in all, this system looks incredibly helpful to rough out a couple of seconds of natural looking animation within a few minutes.
:cool: |
Post by Humdinger // May 14, 2006, 6:34am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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After reading some of the PDF and watching the video(s) here are my thoughts….
This would be a great ADDITION to an existing IK/bones system that already had things such as multiple nails, joint constraints ,sub skeletons, pose library, vertex and IK 'poses' on the same skin, multiple skins on the same IK rig, ability for a SKINNED mesh to interact with a Physical Simulation environment (sorry but convert to vertex first does not really cut it with me) also..the ability to modify / add geometry to a skinned mesh with animation without destroying the mesh, animation and rig (this can already be done in Motion Studio and was only recently added as a new feature in XSI.
Flexibility ..that to me must always be the number one concern/goal
I would not consider this 'Style' system to be a starting point by any stretch and seeing as although I have high hopes; we, the users, still need to see the changes/advancements in the current IK system (of which I include Motion Studio) before asking for anything that is really 'new' to be part if the mix.
In particular, though not directly stated in the PDF (that I saw at least) this system appears to be geared towards 'simple' biped rigs. The idea of the 'constraints' seems to be much like what I read as 'targets' in other IK systems…though I am sure this is much more advanced. I was/ am still hoping that 'targets' will be part of what we see in TS 7.5 as one of the new IK features.
It's great to have high goals and what not but I am reminded of the old adage…
'Don't forget to see the forest through the trees'
and please when you think of 'characters' never limit yourself to a biped. That is only the beginning. A system that goes 'down' just because I created a character with four arms instead of two would basically be a waste of time and resources that should be placed elsewhere.
Few have been as vocal regarding the lack luster current IK system as I, but I would also dare to say few have stuck with Caligari as long as I have even though I feel I am being limited..not by my skills (cough) but by the system I am using. Motion Studio changed much of that….but as a 'true believer' in Caligari I have yearned for the day that a great NATIVE IK system that rivaled anything else out there... but was still accessed using the 'Roman O' way of thinking about an interface... has kept me here…waiting….with very high hopes..but also a 'pen' ready to 'strike' should I feel that THIS time the ball was dropped again. As I personally think that the lack luster IK system has been one of the main reasons that TS does not get the true 'play' (pun intended) that it deserves.
With TS7 and the new architecture I feel this is even more glaring to people that look into TS and compare it with other similarly priced offerings.
Keep up the great work..but watch out for those 'forrests'..we don't want anyone to get 'lost' out there. :) |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // May 14, 2006, 4:17pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Being able to work with non-biped IK would be a huge plus. Say for instance if you were animating a cockroach, a spider, or a fly for instance. Robots with multiple non-humanoid legs, etc. The list does go on... :)
From observing Humdinger's efforts, I'd say he'd be an excellent consultant on the character animation end. Most of my animation stuff has been script focused and "hardware centered" so I'm only imagining the possibilities at this point. I would like something that goes beyond the "one use" philosophy though.
P.K. |
Post by Humdinger // May 14, 2006, 4:50pm
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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I was always a big 'fan' of those systems that would let you create 'imaginery feet' for the rig to follow...?
Never got a chance to use such a system..but sounds like a HUGE time saver.
CK GAME was working on something similar in the past...
http://ckgamefactory.hp.infoseek.co.jp/img/tmp001.mpg
Hey PK thanks! (love that darn kitty) |
Post by rj0 // May 17, 2006, 9:21am
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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After reading some of the PDF and watching the video(s) here are my thoughts….
This would be a great ADDITION to an existing IK/bones system that already had things such as multiple nails, joint constraints ,sub skeletons, pose library, vertex and IK 'poses' on the same skin, multiple skins on the same IK rig, ability for a SKINNED mesh to interact with a Physical Simulation environment (sorry but convert to vertex first does not really cut it with me) also..the ability to modify / add geometry to a skinned mesh with animation without destroying the mesh, animation and rig (this can already be done in Motion Studio and was only recently added as a new feature in XSI.
Flexibility ..that to me must always be the number one concern/goal
I would not consider this 'Style' system to be a starting point by any stretch and seeing as although I have high hopes; we, the users, still need to see the changes/advancements in the current IK system (of which I include Motion Studio) before asking for anything that is really 'new' to be part if the mix.
In particular, though not directly stated in the PDF (that I saw at least) this system appears to be geared towards 'simple' biped rigs. The idea of the 'constraints' seems to be much like what I read as 'targets' in other IK systems…though I am sure this is much more advanced. I was/ am still hoping that 'targets' will be part of what we see in TS 7.5 as one of the new IK features.
It's great to have high goals and what not but I am reminded of the old adage…
'Don't forget to see the forest through the trees'
and please when you think of 'characters' never limit yourself to a biped. That is only the beginning. A system that goes 'down' just because I created a character with four arms instead of two would basically be a waste of time and resources that should be placed elsewhere.
Few have been as vocal regarding the lack luster current IK system as I, but I would also dare to say few have stuck with Caligari as long as I have even though I feel I am being limited..not by my skills (cough) but by the system I am using. Motion Studio changed much of that….but as a 'true believer' in Caligari I have yearned for the day that a great NATIVE IK system that rivaled anything else out there... but was still accessed using the 'Roman O' way of thinking about an interface... has kept me here…waiting….with very high hopes..but also a 'pen' ready to 'strike' should I feel that THIS time the ball was dropped again. As I personally think that the lack luster IK system has been one of the main reasons that TS does not get the true 'play' (pun intended) that it deserves.
With TS7 and the new architecture I feel this is even more glaring to people that look into TS and compare it with other similarly priced offerings.
Keep up the great work..but watch out for those 'forrests'..we don't want anyone to get 'lost' out there. :)
Excellent summary! Well said!
rj |
Post by jamworks // May 20, 2006, 9:02pm
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jamworks
Total Posts: 3
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After reading the paper at http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/styleik/styleik.pdf and watching the videos at http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/styleik/index.html describing Style Based Inverse Kinematics, I'm convinced the potential is awsome.
I am retired in remote outback Australia after years of work in the movie industry. I have used TrueSpace since version 4 for personal interests. I am a bit slow responding to this very interesting thread as I live at end of a very slow dial-up connection and at the end of a bad 4-wheel drive track that is impassable at times. My access to big files is via CD's or DVD's that friends download for me from urban broadband connections. I get them when I pick up snailmail from time to time. All my electricity is solar and has been for 20 years.
If TS 7.5 can implement some version of Style Based IK with some access to the underlying methods via the LE to allow user extensions, the TS 7.5 animation system will be world class.
TS 7.5 needs to capture the mutiple nail and pose features see in the video (Complete Siggraph Video) and allow access to the methods for implementing the n-dimensional vector q that describes the root character. ( To allow user defined characters) Access will be needed to the Kernel function to set intrinsic scaling for user defined characters as opposed to a standard biped. There are probably several more functions required that I can't see or don't understand.
Make this happen in TS 7.5. The potential is awesome.
Jerry Jeffress (for more information Google me) |
Post by xmanflash // May 20, 2006, 10:08pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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After reading the paper at http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/styleik/styleik.pdf and watching the videos at http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/styleik/index.html describing Style Based Inverse Kinematics, I'm convinced the potential is awsome.
I am retired in remote outback Australia after years of work in the movie industry. I have used TrueSpace since version 4 for personal interests. I am a bit slow responding to this very interesting thread as I live at end of a very slow dial-up connection and at the end of a bad 4-wheel drive track that is impassable at times. My access to big files is via CD's or DVD's that friends download for me from urban broadband connections. I get them when I pick up snailmail from time to time. All my electricity is solar and has been for 20 years.
If TS 7.5 can implement some version of Style Based IK with some access to the underlying methods via the LE to allow user extensions, the TS 7.5 animation system will be world class.
TS 7.5 needs to capture the mutiple nail and pose features see in the video (Complete Siggraph Video) and allow access to the methods for implementing the n-dimensional vector q that describes the root character. ( To allow user defined characters) Access will be needed to the Kernel function to set intrinsic scaling for user defined characters as opposed to a standard biped. There are probably several more functions required that I can't see or don't understand.
Make this happen in TS 7.5. The potential is awesome.
Jerry Jeffress (for more information Google me)
I agree with the guy from ILM :D (http://theoscarsite.com/whoswho6/jeffress_j.htm)
Access will be needed to the Kernel function to set intrinsic scaling for user defined characters as opposed to a standard biped
Yes - if we are to create libraries of animals say (quadrapeds?) and their movements the standard biped system wont work.. If its custoisable then TS could be used as the core to building a user based motion library for its users (and I'd be happy to happy to host it with the other files on www.truespacelibrary.com when I have finished it :-)
It would be kind of cool to apply tiger motion to a rhino.. or even a kangaroo to a bird.. hmm
Jerry - the Australian Outback? - Is the movie industry (or Sydney) that bad!? or is it because you are setting up the worlds biggest render farm, based on solar nuclear power? :p |
Post by Humdinger // May 21, 2006, 9:43pm
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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This is pretty interesting stuff...
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=6837722
I am a 'zero tech' guy on a programming end so I have no idea just how 'advanced' this stuff really is..but still nice videos..
This 'character interaction' 'feature' is interesting..
http://download.autodesk.com/us/motionbuilder/movies/GDC06_MB_DoubleEval/GDC06_MB_DoubleEval.html
(flash video)
-------------
note:
I am assuming more than just an export feature..more so this kind of 'control' in the native TS system)
:) |
Post by roman // May 25, 2006, 7:24pm
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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This is pretty interesting stuff...http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=6837722
"Interesting" is the word. Motion Builder is high end ($5,000) but still a traditional key-frame based system. It requires a lot of manual adjustments to make motion "natural". Then comes a high point ion the video where blue girl and yellow girl start "parenting" each other. That is just too kinky for a straight guy like me:)
On the other end of the spectrum is Endorphin with a classy physical based simulation and procedures but for $10,000 you still do not get key-frame editor and I just know many of TS user would not aprove that kind of business model.
Finally, there is Houdini with Link Editor and even more classy procedural animation for cool $17,000.
Now I wonder if someone could integrate all these different aproaches in one easy to use animation system how much would it be worth? That of course is a purely rhetorical question:) |
Post by Steinie // May 26, 2006, 1:25am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Roman,
Your last sentence would have even more impact if you had used the winking icon! You did mean to wink didn't you?
I'll leave the rest of your comments to the animators here. |
Post by Alien // May 26, 2006, 7:12am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Jerry Jeffress (for more information Google me)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/google-animated2.gif
Wow! Now that's what I call a resumé! |
Post by CdeB // May 26, 2006, 7:24am
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CdeB
Total Posts: 160
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Roman,
This doesn't affect me personally as I am not into animation at the moment (at least as far as people and animals are concerned) but I think it is really important for trueSpace that the whatever bells and whistles the new animation tools have, the basic stability required for so long and complained about often, needs to be there at the level of the standard animation tools, like bones constraints etc. I remember when Cinema 3D was in its early years and trueSpace often came ahead. But then Maxon concentrated on getting a very stable product and that (not the exciting extras) is what built them a very strong stable base, and put them in their strong position today.
Chris |
Post by xmanflash // May 26, 2006, 9:54pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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Roman,
This doesn't affect me personally as I am not into animation at the moment (at least as far as people and animals are concerned) but I think it is really important for trueSpace that the whatever bells and whistles the new animation tools have, the basic stability required for so long and complained about often, needs to be there at the level of the standard animation tools, like bones constraints etc. I remember when Cinema 3D was in its early years and trueSpace often came ahead. But then Maxon concentrated on getting a very stable product and that (not the exciting extras) is what built them a very strong stable base, and put them in their strong position today.
Chris
I have to say I agree with that statement - I do find TS to be a little more than frustrating when things just stop working, or hide and dont come back.. undo never seems to do the right thing - In general I mistrust the interface. I had a scene which worked fine before, load, and then I could not get the material windows to pop up - I had to start a New Project and then I got them back.. I lost the 'right click' render panel like some other users, havnt seen it back yet.. The new animation tools sound great, but if they are only as reliable as the current interface, there will end up being a lot if unrealised potential in those tools...
I am definately hoping TS 7.2 adds the much needed reliability of interface that the TS underlying technology deserves..
Thanks for letting us in on this info though Roman, I think you are pushing the limits even further, but dont let it all be about new features until the old ones are working the way you intended them to work.. :) |
Post by rj0 // Mar 23, 2007, 2:28pm
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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Any updates?
rj |
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