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Children's Books
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Children's Books // Work in Progress
Post by splinters // Apr 19, 2006, 3:35am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Ok guys, a weird one this;
As anyone who knows my work may be aware, I write and illustrate my own children's books with a view to getting published (or selling the ideas on to childrens media, TV etc.)
I have been very busy for the last year or so and my books have been abandoned while pursued some academic courses (and TS7 work;) )but I am now ready to seek another literary agent or potential publisher.
So I have taken the bull by the horns and put a link on my site to a sample of the books and some pages from them.
I have been staring at these things for so long now that I have lost the ability to be objective and so any and all advice would be welcome.
I have purposely avoided putting a whole books on the site as this really ticks agents off (how can they sell it if everyone has seen it?)
Here is the link to the main page (this needs changing slightly as it is the first thing people will see).
www.woodwardp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
It gives you a choice of two sites; one is my personal site-useful for directing school based employers to as it has a biog and examples of student work, product design, music etc.
The other is the site where I showcase my recent work and now the children's books.
The site could not hope to cover the 23 books and I am running out of webspace but if you get time to have a look, feel free to let me have any advice or comments. Many thanks..:D |
Post by Délé // Apr 19, 2006, 4:01am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I think it's great stuff Paul. I like the way all of the books are tied together into a bigger world. The artwork is of course excellent and the stories seem to have positive morals also. The hard part is definitely getting an agent and publisher. I remember reading that Dr. Seuss had gone to something like 28 or 29 publishers before one finally had the smarts to jump on it. Hopefully a publisher will have the smarts to take a good look at your work and pick it up. :) |
Post by splinters // Apr 19, 2006, 4:06am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Thanks Dele. I guess all those years as a teacher rubs off on the stories in a 'moral' sense. I guess they are all somewhat educational with some form of 'citizenship' in there.
As for agents and publishers-I have yet to hear a tale of anyone getting published with ease. Even a success like Harry Potter was turned down repeatedly in it's early days. I'm no J.K Rowling but never mind....onwards, ever onwards...I was betting on this for my pension fund...;) |
Post by Alien // Apr 19, 2006, 4:31am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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No comments on the artwork, looks fine to me, but the text is a different matter.
I noticed in some pages that the text is a bit hard to read, due to being rather close to the colour of whatever it's infront of. The other thing I'd mention is I noticed you didn't seem to use many [I didn't notice any, but as you said, those are only a selection of the pages] contractions. Makes it sound a bit "dry".
1 other thing, re: you comment about publishers feelings towards the whole thing already being available free online... that didn't stop MegaTokyo getting picked up by the manga division of DC comics (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=61060). :) |
Post by splinters // Apr 19, 2006, 5:00am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Yeah, I noticed that too Alien. However, the pages are meant to be a sample; a taster for a hard copy being sent to the agent (hopefully). They are also compressed GIF images; much smaller and blockier than the originals.
But I do see your point..both of them :) |
Post by splinters // Apr 19, 2006, 7:34am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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The other thing I'd mention is I noticed you didn't seem to use many [I didn't notice any, but as you said, those are only a selection of the pages] contractions. Makes it sound a bit "dry".
As for contractions; I try to keep the rhyming text to the same rhythm (I hate kids book that rhyme but do it out of rhythm). Where necessary, I use contractions but it depends on what best fits the text. For instance Barn Buddies books always go something like this;
On a bright and sunny day,
if you walk a little way
Through the woods and fields of green,
to a bridge across a stream.
You can tap a steady 4/4 beat while reading-like a march. This range also has it's own theme tune and any line of the books can be sung to it. I often use contractions if I need to reduce a syllable or two...;) |
Post by mrbones // Apr 19, 2006, 5:58pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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I Like the text and colors because they are somewhat eye soothing.
I could see this kind of colors and tints working well for a TrueBones site.
Looking forward to your website developmetns.
Cheer |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 20, 2006, 2:45am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi Splinters
Great work with the books. You've asked some pertinent and interesting questions (the obvious one being 'how to get published?')
I've a great personal interest in this question myself as I am also working on a book/graphic novel type thing that hopefully will somehow eventually get published and bring pleasure to many (specially my bank manager).
With this in mind I've done a little research which leads me to make the following comments (in the hope they may be of value to you)
Firstly, as you know, childrens books can be very lucrative. This means that lots of people try their hand at them. Which means that the publishers of childrens books have plenty to choose from so your product needs to have something special and unique and at the same time it must conform to trusted conventions. (Apologies if you already know all this ;) ).
Some trusted conventions to bear in mind: Artwork is preferred to look 'hand' drawn or painted. Simple images, bright primary colours and a 'homemade' feel seem to be the norm - particularly for work aimed at the youngest audience. There seems to be an unfair and rather strong bias against obviously computer generated imagery.
Any text 'should' normally be seperate from the artwork and preferably against a white or neutral background. This seems to be a biggy. I suspect this one is a practical printing consideration - why waste expensive ink printing a picture which will subsequently be covered by text?
ALWAYS get someone else to edit your work - a dispassionate and unbiased eye can be your greatest friend!
Final comment on artwork is that images that tell a story (this is what happened) will always be prefered over static (this is what it looks like) images. The recent bucketwheel digger picture by the Wicked Witch is a great example of this!
To get what I'm talking about spend some time in the childrens section of your local public library - research which books are the most popular. If nothing else you will get a lot of laughs because successful childrens stories are funny.
On a more general topic - publishers are a generally pretty conservative lot (which I think is part of the general bias against computer generated art) and tend to stick with authors they already have a working relationship with. Given all that it may well be worth looking into publishing some of these books yourself - talk to a reputable business advisor. Talk to established publisher and find out what they are looking for too. Try and talk to established authors. Talk to your local library - they may well have the inside goss on how to fast track your publishing process - there are often publishing grants available.
Self publishing will also give you the greatest degree of artistic control and potentially the greatest share of any financial returns - it also carries the greatest financial risk :( .
Consider marketing an Online version - pay per view type of thing, or marketing a print copy online (the big trick there is to get people to look at your website - research online marketing strategies).
It could be a good idea to get at least a few copies of one of your books printed up - 30 to 50 copies maybe (modern printers can do small print runs very easily these days). You will definitely find it easier to market a completed product rather than the idea of a completed product. This will also give you a better idea of the products marketability. If nothing else you will be set up for christmas presents that way!!
These comments are based on some basic research I did here in New Zealand a year or two ago - some of my comments may not be relevant where you are. One thing is fairly probable - it will usually take at least as much work to get the book(s) successfully published and marketed as it did to actually write/create them in the first place.
Good luck though Mr Splinters - I hope you are wildly successful in this venture and wish you all the best fortune!! Don't forget to let us know how you get on. :D |
Post by splinters // Apr 20, 2006, 3:00am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Thanks for the advice Wizard but there is one underlying fact that causes problems.
All of my submissions have been popular with publishers but they admitted that they did not know how to fit my artistic style (CGI) in with their existing book lists. Some really hung on to the editorial committee and nearly made an offer but in the end all have passed because of this.
I like my CGI style and if I had to do traditional art to get published then I would turn my back on these aspirations now. The UK print industry is notoriously old fashioned and currently living off what it can reprint.
Agreed, a lot of parents (who mostly buy the books) still look for traditional artwork but the next generation will have grown up on Toy Story, Ice Age and Shrek and CGI imagery will be second nature to them.
I appreciate all advice and help and will act upon a great deal of it-indeed much of the layout etc. is just a work in progress, but I am afraid I have my own artistic style which is what I wish to stick with..:o |
Post by Alien // Apr 20, 2006, 3:17am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Some trusted conventions to bear in mind: Artwork is preferred to look 'hand' drawn or painted. Simple images, bright primary colours and a 'homemade' feel seem to be the norm - particularly for work aimed at the youngest audience. There seems to be an unfair and rather strong bias against obviously computer generated imagery.
Sadly this is true, however, you can get some pretty cool non-computery-looking results with things like ink & cartoon shaders.
Consider marketing an Online version - pay per view type of thing, or marketing a print copy online (the big trick there is to get people to look at your website - research online marketing strategies).
PPV doesn't tend to be very popular, at least as far as reading material goes. Infact that would be putting it mildly - there often seems to be a strong resentment towards such things, although at the same time there are numerous examples of freely available online reading material that's gone on to have quite good sales of printed versions of the work as well [without stopping the free online versions]. Having said that though, I should point out that most [probably all] of the examples I'm thinking of are aimed at an older target audience than what Splinters is aiming for, & I'm not sure if or how that would make a difference. |
Post by chrono // Apr 20, 2006, 3:22am
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chrono
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Agreed, a lot of parents (who mostly buy the books) still look for traditional artwork but the next generation will have grown up on Toy Story, Ice Age and Shrek and CGI imagery will be second nature to them.
AHH! Don't fall into that trap! Yes the current gen has come up seeing CG work, but they also have values on what they will and won't tolerate. It's the same as many of us older folk with Claymation and Stop Animation. It's a nastalgic feel not visually pleasing. Also still shots are an entirely different creature from the animated.
Anyways maybe you should find a style that touchs on the painted, marker, and colored pencil looks while still being CG. |
Post by splinters // Apr 20, 2006, 3:39am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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AHH! Don't fall into that trap! Yes the current gen has come up seeing CG work, but they also have values on what they will and won't tolerate. It's the same as many of us older folk with Claymation and Stop Animation. It's a nastalgic feel not visually pleasing. Also still shots are an entirely different creature from the animated.
Anyways maybe you should find a style that touchs on the painted, marker, and colored pencil looks while still being CG.
I agree Chrono but the current gen of kids will struggle to view traditional mainstream animation. Once the preserve of Disney, even they have gone the CGI route. Which is a shame because, personally, I love traditional animation and stop-motion; Nightmare before Xmas and Corpse Bride are two of my favourite films which is why I mess with DOF in some images to give that claymation 'feel' without being too obvious. My latest project uses toon shading and will be more comic book based. Every CGI image gets filtered to soften it up too. There is always post work on these images but I do not think that my CG style is 'hard' or industrial. I would like to think it is pretty soft really-and it is my chosen style so I am gonna stick with it a bit longer...;) Can't help seeing similarities between my stuff and the CGI nintendo use for their characters too-big and colourful. Remember also that I am hoping to sell some of this stuff into media (TV, cartoon, CD-Rom etc.) and these books do have a 'morality' to them and I do have an educational background which has seen some of these works used successfully in schools. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 20, 2006, 4:03am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks for the advice Wizard but there is one underlying fact that causes problems.
All of my submissions have been popular with publishers but they admitted that they did not know how to fit my artistic style (CGI) in with their existing book lists. Some really hung on to the editorial committee and nearly made an offer but in the end all have passed because of this.
I like my CGI style and if I had to do traditional art to get published then I would turn my back on these aspirations now. The UK print industry is notoriously old fashioned and currently living off what it can reprint.
Agreed, a lot of parents (who mostly buy the books) still look for traditional artwork but the next generation will have grown up on Toy Story, Ice Age and Shrek and CGI imagery will be second nature to them.
I appreciate all advice and help and will act upon a great deal of it-indeed much of the layout etc. is just a work in progress, but I am afraid I have my own artistic style which is what I wish to stick with..:o
I hear you there man! I like your CG style too - and my own style is even more overtly CG than yours so I encounter the same difficulty. I've been told that irrespective of how good the art is it won't get published if it's CG! That strikes me as crazy exactly because of the point you make about Toy Story, Shrek etc. Personally I think the kids probably don't care but many adults are looking for the same buzz they got when they were kids
And it's even crazier in your case because your artwork doesn't all look necessarily CG. Your characters are cute and accessible and funny. I was told by one guy that as long as the story is good it does not matter about the pictorial quality - which to my mind would mean that it wouldn't therefore matter if it was CG. But apparently it does.
This is the main reason I suggested the self-publish, self-market approach - the creative control is in your hands that way and I think your work would sell itself to most discerning parents - IMHO :) |
Post by splinters // Apr 20, 2006, 4:08am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Wizard, it sounds like you heard all the same lines I did..;)
We will plod on together regardless.:D |
Post by splinters // Apr 20, 2006, 5:46am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I'm not really into self publishing but this site has attracted a lot of interest;
http://www.lulu.com/uk
Seems reasonable and they even do a nice hardback bind with dust jacket. Might make for a few 'special' presents...;) |
Post by peterma // Apr 20, 2006, 6:01am
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peterma
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Sweet books, Paul ! My favourite is "Jungle woods". |
Post by e-graffiti // Apr 20, 2006, 10:19am
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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Paul, stay your course as CG is becoming more popular and more accepted. Kids dont care so much about "how" the characters are made. What they care about is connecting to the characters. In addition to many kids movies being CG, kids are playing more and more video games, lots of comic books are using CG characters, and many TV shows are CG. My children will both watch the PBS show Jay Jay the Jet plane which is completely CG (except for a few humans working at the airport).
http://pbskids.org/jayjay/index.html
The Jay Jay books inspired by the show are also CG. :jumpy: |
Post by splinters // Apr 20, 2006, 12:31pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Paul, stay your course as CG is becoming more popular and more accepted. Kids dont care so much about "how" the characters are made. What they care about is connecting to the characters.
Have no fear...I intend to...:jumpy: |
Post by optimiztic // Apr 20, 2006, 1:39pm
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[QUOTE=splinters]As for contractions; I try to keep the rhyming text to the same rhythm (I hate kids book that rhyme but do it out of rhythm).
Your books seem directed toward young children, which means you target the content (book cover) for the parents (just like dog food is sold to people, not dogs). The kids, however, love the rhymes and zany ideas.
As a parent, I had to read similar books out loud to my daughter, as part of her bedtime ritual. If the rhythm is strong and consistent, and especially if the punch line is funny, kids will love to hear the phrases repeated over and over. This is how Dr. Seuss got rich.
So far, I have only looked at one of your books (Harold's Hair), and it looks like it could be satisfying bedtime fare for a tyke. My only comment is that you should read the lines over and over until they flow smoothly; until the number of pronounced syllables in all the lines sounds the same to an untrained ear. You can change the number of syllables between pages, but I wouldn't overdo it. It's the wonderful ingenuity of the story, the occasional zinger where something crazy happens to Harold because of his single hair, and the steady backbeat of the perfect rhythm that will keep a child entranced (and asking for more).
This is all I can offer you; if you want more you'll have to ask mom.
Don |
Post by rchappell // Apr 23, 2006, 12:55pm
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rchappell
Total Posts: 114
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Your work is extremely high quality mr splinters, quite inspiring.
I look forward to your project involving toon shading. |
Post by splinters // Apr 23, 2006, 1:03pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Your work is extremely high quality mr splinters, quite inspiring.
I look forward to your project involving toon shading.
Many thanks Mr Chappell, I take that as quite a compliment coming from you..:) |
Post by trueBlue // May 12, 2006, 10:17am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Hello Splinters,
Have you ever thought of an electronic or interactive version of your children's books? Just a thought. |
Post by stoker // May 12, 2006, 11:55am
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stoker
Total Posts: 506
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Hello Splinters,
Have you ever thought of an electronic or interactive version of your children's books? Just a thought.
I think Paul has some form of CD version of his books.......not sure whether this contains all of the books and all contents of books or whether it is just a selection.:confused::confused: |
Post by splinters // May 12, 2006, 11:59am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I think Paul has some form of CD version of his books.......not sure whether this contains all of the books and all contents of books or whether it is just a selection.:confused::confused:
You beat me to it Stoker...;)
I do have an interactive CD of my work which is much more expansive than just the books-it has character profiles, locations, a quiz and more as well as all 23 books and some concept stuff. Weighs in at a full 700mb and was only used as promotional material for publishers but apparently they are loath to view a CD...:confused:
Would make a great multi-media title though...with hindsight..;) |
Post by optimiztic // May 12, 2006, 12:14pm
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optimiztic
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What about an interactive web version of what's on the CD, with paying subscriptions? Kids seem to like to play with characters on the web -- my daughter signed up for some Disney interactive environment when she was about 12 (at $10/mo.), then refused to let me cancel it. I'm not sure how this would play for younger kids; just an idea.
Don |
Post by jamesmc // May 12, 2006, 1:26pm
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Nice website and artworks!
A newspaper man had an assignment to ask an old carnie (carnival hustler) what you needed to be successful in the carnival business. He found an older carnie talking to some children and handing them some books. The reporter posed a question to the old Carnie about his path to success.
The carnie replied with the following:
- a cane with a handle for pointing at things and a hook to grab customers by the arm.
- a hat to tip to the ladies and children; also to hold tips.
- a winning smile and fresh breath.
- big pockets to hold surprises!
When asked why he was a carnie and did he consider that a success. He said, "Absolutely! I love this carnival and all the rides, plus all the children that come to visit!"
The old Carnie left the scene and drove off in his cadillac which was painted cartoon colors. One of the other carnie's behind the balloon sales counter whispered out loud, "He's not really a carnie. I think he's that car salesman."
Another carnie spoke up and said, "He's not a car salesman I think he owns the Cadillac dealership in the next town!" The carnival workers continued to discuss who the old Carnie really was. The reporter spoke up and said he would certainly find out.
One of the carnival performers found a stack of children's books the old carnie had left on a countertop.
It was two hours after sunset and the carnival began to wind down, so a few of the carnival workers started to read the books. To their amazement the book was about a visit of an old carnie to a carnival. His winning smile, dapper appearance and charm won over everyone he met.
The book was written exactly as the visit had taken place on that day. The newspaper reporter turn the last page of the book and saw a picture of the cartoon colored Cadillac driving off in the distance with the Carnie waving and smiling.
The reporter lifted his reading glasses and looked to the horizon where the old Carnie had driven. He breathed out with a sigh and said, "Yes, he was all that and more. The old Carnie's big pockets had delivered more than a surprise of children books, it delivered an amazing experience and a curious wonder that no doubt left dreams of visions in both adults and children who will read or have read his books.
The reporter found a folded note attached to the last page. On it the old Carnie had written, "Your not smiling!"
The reporter smiled.
Moral of the story: One child left with a sense of wonder after reading a book is beyond gold or success, regardless of their age. |
Post by splinters // May 12, 2006, 2:15pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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A lovely story Jamesmc and a wonderful sentiment at the end...you have given me new hope..hopefully my new toy (see ts musicians thread) will not detract me from my goal too much...;) |
Post by splinters // May 12, 2006, 2:37pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Also nice to see one of the books in it's concept stage used as the current advert on the top of the home page...:) |
Post by splinters // May 30, 2006, 5:14am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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OK, finally made some free time and I am gunning for agents again so I put together a new submission. This time I played down the '23 books already completed' approach and went for just two (although I did sneak the book montage into the cover). After the cover there is an introductory page then I intend to do these for each book;
A picture of the cover and two example pages to show how they 'could' be laid out. Following that will be the full text of the story followed by two 6"x4" glossy photos on a custom card mount. What do you think-is it too much?
Cover and pepe section; |
Post by splinters // May 30, 2006, 5:18am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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And Harold's Hair. All that is missing from these is the introductory page and the full page of text to accompany each story. |
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