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tS, old and new - some help, please?
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tS, old and new - some help, please? // Work in Progress
Post by BillyBT // Feb 17, 2009, 7:14am
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BillyBT
Total Posts: 13
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I wondered if I might beg someone's help with this, please?
I use tS v2.01a - works great, w/clean, pure interface; have tS v7.6 also, but let's just say that it's "a bit different" from my ol' much loved tS v2.01a. <g>
I'm working on a game, and have made an old styled 4-masted sailing ship; trying to get it into 7.6 (with wider array of formats), to save my file out as 3ds format, to send onto Milkshape 3D, which writes it out as an Ogre mesh file for the game engine.
If I send someone my tS v2.01a .scn file, and 2-3 material libraries, can you do the above process for me - send file thru' tS v7.6, & send ship back to me as a .3ds object? And, perhaps also as the common .obj file, if that's a choice within tS v7.6. But, did small test with a .cob item from tS 2.01a, in tS 7.6 and saved it as .3ds format, and that worked.
====
Perhaps I'm having trouble with an underpowered PC, - XP PRO sp3, 1 GB system RAM, but things just aren't going well in this regard. I've worked about 2 mos. or so on this
ship, have looked at gazillion pics of ships on the net, etc. At this point, it would be a heartbreaker if I have to start lopping off this and that from the ship, trying to get it
down to a smaller and smaller file size, so that it may work. The .scn file, or the .obj of the ship, is about 16.2MB - nothing by today's standards, I would guess - but I'm having old and new versions of TS come up with way too many "Not Responding" scenarios. tS 2.01a and 7.6 both may "chew on" the file 1-2 minutes, before opening it, and then settling down.
Further, don't know cause of this - but tS v7.6 will render things that aren't there or shouldn't be there - colors of the sails, mostly; it also seems to show a sail missing,
but does show that sail upon rendering. tS 7.6 also seems to show several decks that are gray, above the actual deck on the ship, that aren't there or certainly shouldn't be.
Vastly appreciative, if anyone could lend me a hand, with this.
Thank you, BillyBT (Pat) |
Post by TomG // Feb 17, 2009, 7:24am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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You can mail it to me and I can take a look, as time permits (no promises!). Usual email addy, v-thgrim@microsoft.com.
One thing to note, 16Mb isn't much for an offline renderer, but may be a pretty big model for a game. What sort of poly count is it?
If you can mail it, I'd go with the original SCN. Do an Archive of the scene so that all textures are included, with relevant texture paths (otherwise, I won't get a textured version of the model and would have to find and repaint all the textures, not easy!).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by BillyBT // Feb 17, 2009, 8:12am
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BillyBT
Total Posts: 13
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TomG;
Thanks once again for your kind help; will round up files & such as best I can, send them packing your way.
Thanks, BillyBT (Pat) |
Post by BillyBT // Feb 18, 2009, 6:19am
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BillyBT
Total Posts: 13
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Tom,
Hope you catch this, re attached render/queries.
Had ts v7.6 open this file from ts 2.01a but v7.6 seems to draw solids between left to right supports on handrail; how does one remedy that? That's why I at first thought the other night that 7.6 was drawing extra two decks, 'til I looked closer at what it's actually doing.
Also, 3 of 4 sails have blotchy mottled look for some reason, but last one (on far left, that's rolled up) appears to be OK. Think I have 7.6 pointed to correct textures, and so forth.
And, finally, I have some idea on this - but when you asked for file paths to textures etc. in your recent post, can you give me solid example of that, please? When I send you files to look at, I want things right, to make your life easier esp. as you kindly offered to help.
Thanks, again. BillyBT (Pat) |
Post by TomG // Feb 18, 2009, 8:21am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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If you send me the SCN, I wont get (say) the wood texture, the image file that tS is using for the wood. If you just send the image, tS will be looking for it in (say) C:/Billy/Pictures/MyTextures/TheShip/wood.jpg - but I just get wood.jpg and not the texture directory, so when tS loads the model it won't find the jpg as I dont have the directory.
If you do an Archive, then it saves SCN and all texture files in one directory (gathering up the texture files from wherever you put them and copying them to the archive folder), and adjusts the scene, the SCN, so it points to that directory. That way when I receive the whole archive folder, with SCN and images in it, on opening the scene, tS will be able to find the textures after all.
Most likely you have some bad geometry in here - the double deck is most likely tS7.6 filling in a face between some geometry it doesn't like. The sail too could be a plane, which are always dodgy things to use (very thin cubes are my recommendation), looks like some normals / double sided type issues. I'll have a look when the scene comes along - these same mainly geometry issues so don't sweat it about getting the textures along too, as I should be able to diagnose problems just with the plain geometry.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by BillyBT // Feb 18, 2009, 5:07pm
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BillyBT
Total Posts: 13
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Tom,
Thanks again for your reply, and info re Archiving - 'nother concept I wasn't up on, as I still use v2.01a, but I do peek into ts 7.6 more & more lately; if choosing the tS 6 look, then I can "handle" that easier than 7.6. LOL!
And you are good - I did indeed err in using flat sheets for three sails - the very ones that don't take textures well, in 7.6. -- works OK in 2.01a, but... Sails I can fix, and I have an idea about the deck problem, too, that I can possibly remedy. Will try to repair those, then render it again in 7.6 and see how that goes.
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!
BillyBT (Pat) |
Post by TomG // Feb 19, 2009, 5:01am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Most welcome! Keep us updated on progress, nice looking model, would like to see where you go with it. Offer still stands if you want to mail it to me to investigate specific problems, and of course the forums are here for any questions too, full of people who are happy to help.
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by BillyBT // Feb 19, 2009, 7:19am
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BillyBT
Total Posts: 13
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Tom,
Howdy, howdy, once again. Did remedy sails, deck rail; & the ship seems to render fine now in tS 7.6.
But after saving the ship in .3ds format, to open it in Milkshape 3d and to then save it to final Ogre mesh that I need, it all went downhill from there...
Milkshape 3D gave me a vague error msg., other apps could open the file but showed just parts of it; one of those apps used external renderer (POVray, in this case) and I saw numerous messages about "please remove the degenerate triangle." LOL! Sounds perverse almost - but, no idea what that means, really.
Do have said ship file in Archive though, finally. In said Archive, I also inserted another folder (with some other textures) that were possibly missed by the Archive tho' I could be wrong about that. I can zip it all up, send it on to you - but first, any general ideas about what POVray called a degenerate triangle? Anything off the top of your head, that you could tell me about, to possibly look at more closely?
Best, and thanks again. BillyBT (Pat) |
Post by kena // Feb 19, 2009, 9:29am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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You could try exporting in .obj format instead and putting that into milkshape |
Post by TomG // Feb 19, 2009, 9:53am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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A degenerate triangle is a triangle which is a straight line - that is, all three points forming the triangle lie on the same line.
This would be a "bad thing" for modeling programs and render engines.
So sounds like you have some bad geometry in there. Preparing geometry so that it works in other applications is quite an art form, and is sadly not easy, due to every software application working a little differently.
You might like to try using Quadrify Polygons or Split Polygons on the workspace before export, just select all faces on the model and apply one or other of those tools and see if it helps. If you have n-gons on your object (http://www.caligari.com/News/news_200901/TipsNTricks_Ngon.html ) then it could be that a line with a vertex in the middle that doesnt connect to something could be treated as a polygon, and would then be a degenerate triangle. The Quadrify or Split tool would ensure that vertex connected to another vertex across the face so that all faces were quads or tris, leading to a better interpretation of what is an edge and what is a poly.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by BillyBT // Feb 19, 2009, 5:39pm
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BillyBT
Total Posts: 13
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Kena --
If tS 7.6 does export in the common .obj format, great, but if it has that option I missed it; but if you followed this thread, you'll know I'm not "expert" in tS 7.6 by any means. I do my stuff in tS 2.01a, then send it to tS 7.6 but I may have to get on "speaking terms" with tS 7.6, perhaps. ;-)
Tom --
Well, that was a lifetime supply of info, to ponder; thanks. May send ship in sections to 7.6, save as .3ds format, send it to Milkshape 3D and see what does or doesn't open and thereby perhaps narrow down problem part/s. Or, perhaps better route is to try what you mention, on the parts, save those in 7.6 until I have repaired errant pieces.
For what it's worth - here is pic of ship, from tS 7.6; may not look like much, but bear in mind that I have never done anything remotely like it, before starting it about 2 mos. ago.
Best, --pat |
Post by kena // Feb 19, 2009, 9:33pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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Go to the model side of the house.
there is an icon that has a plug for a picture. This is to add a tsx plugin
click on it and go into the luuv folder and install that plugin.
Then with your model selected, click on the luuv icon and it will export to .obj for you. |
Post by TomG // Feb 20, 2009, 5:16am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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The latest newsletter shows how to export to OBJ:
http://www.caligari.com/News/news_200901/TipsNTricks_Blend.html
This was for use in WPF applications, so it goes on to show loading it into Expression Blend 2, but you can of course just go on to load it into anything that uses OBJ.
HTH!
Tom
PS - the ship does look like much! It looks pretty detailed and nicely modeled, thanks for sharing the pic! |
Post by BillyBT // Feb 20, 2009, 7:49am
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BillyBT
Total Posts: 13
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Kena --
Thanks - tried the obj. route; works somewhat, or at least better than 3ds format thus far, tho' trouble isn't with the latter format I'm fairly certain.
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Tom --
Messed about in tS 7.6 - think I found (but not sure) of method to select all faces, then try the "Quadrify Polygons or Split Polygons on the workspace...", let alone fret about the dreaded ngons business. Wanna' run it by me again, in English for Idiots, so I can try to follow your info?
Thanks.
Further, using .obj export, tS 7.6 said some things had holes and should be triangulated, so I let it do that; the lower half of the ship then did open in Milkshape 3D and seemed OK, but with an entire sail, I was told (I think) that it had too many triangles. Ah... am I chasing my own tail here, losing ground - gaining on it, slowly, or what?
Also, if I recall, was able to take most all of ship, in parts (as 3ds) into Silo 2 3D - and that seemed OK, too.
I wonder - should I try a a new sail, and mast, and try to be more careful in its construction, send it from ts 2.01a over to tS 7.6 and see how that goes?
Thanks, Pat |
Post by TomG // Feb 20, 2009, 8:32am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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The Quadrify should take care of the holes. The LUUV export option doesnt do a good job, and can cause crashes as well as geometry that doesnt work.
To quadrify the whole mesh, right click to go into PE, use Rectangle Select, ensure Front Faces is not checked so you get all front and back faces, then left click and drag over the whole model. Whole model is now selected.
Now in the Point Edit tools fly out, choose Quadrify Polygons (manual has details on where this is, including screen grab). This will turn all polys into tris or quads, which any application should be able to deal with.
Right click to exit point edit, and you are done!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by BillyBT // Feb 20, 2009, 2:05pm
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BillyBT
Total Posts: 13
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Tom,
Indeed, the LUUV export option is a sorry mess; did get an item or two over into Milkshape 3D including whole lower half of ship but LUUV then crashed tS 3 times in a row which really... "vexes me", to be polite about it. ;-(
Your info this time around seems bit more digestible or almost "in English" (for the dinosaur here, still using tS 2.01a). <g> And again, thank you kindly for the help, and info.
May have to force myself to study 7.6 more; using the tS 6 layout, it at least seems a bit familiar to me, which may be a start at least.
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And tell me, Tom, please: if I bring in a .cob from 2.01a to 7.6 and the latter tells me that (almost) everything's is full of holes & offers to triangulate it... either I'm making lousy models or the two versions of tS aren't on the same page re geometry, or something's afoot that I'm unaware of and should know about. So, what's the story here?
Or, perhaps the huge question is, how does one make simple, elegant models, that won't cause so much grief?
Best,/thanks, --pat |
Post by TomG // Feb 23, 2009, 3:34am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Can't really say without seeing the model. It would most likely come to n-gons, as per that article. If you have used booleans, then this is a very easy way to end up with a hole. Not sure why tS would want to triangulate it, though, since it can handle n-gons - but it is true that the COB format has changed a bit since tS2, that was many years ago! tS2 will definitely have defined its data differently.
But really, can't comment without having the model to examine and see just what sort of area had holes etc. Certainly building to go to OBJ and so to another package takes thought, you have to build to much more rigorous standards and keep more things in mind than if just building in tS to use in tS (and the same is true also for other 3D apps; you have to put more thought into the model construction to ensure the model is more likely to work in other packages if you are planning for the model to be exported, not something unique to tS!).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by TomG // Feb 23, 2009, 10:37am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Thanks for sending the model! It loaded fine into tS7.6 for me, swapped to Model side, and used the tS6.6 load from there. No errors or messages on loading, just loaded up first time.
It's a big model I notice, 233,000 faces, quite big for a game mesh. Enough to slow down the not-so-great quadro card I was running with here (didnt test it on my much better 8800 yet).
I was able to render it using HDRI, just to see what it looked like since it is so detailed, I think it came out good!
There are lots of n-gon areas, mostly where holes have been cut out. These would need triangulating, and that can probably be done with Quadrify or Split Polys on the workspace, or Triangulate on the Model side. It will increase the face count still further though!
Going to post this post with some attached images, then a separate post on how degenerate triangles may have arisen, to save cramming too many images into one post!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by TomG // Feb 23, 2009, 11:19am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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The last grabs in my post before this one highlighted some n-gons, holes, and floating edges, things that OBJ export is going to have trouble with.
This time was looking for something that might cause degenerate triangles - note that I haven't had time to test the theory yet, simply visually hunted for something that might do it. If time permits I'll try testing.
First image shows the ropes - these are very long cylinders. On export, the quads that make up their sides may get triangulated (or if you triangulate the whole mesh to try and fix n-gons, they will get triangulated). This now gives one very long, very thin triangle. This could be so thin that it is being read or processed as a single line by an exporter or (most likely) by a render engine, and as such would be a degenerate triangle. It is stretched so much in length that it becomes indistinguishable from a line.
A possible solution (and a possible test to see if this is a culprit) would be to add edge loops so they are no longer very long undivided faces.
The second image shows an area where there is a quad, and again on triangulation or on loading via an exporter etc, it could be that the three vertices along the one line are being read as being a face - again, a degenerate triangle. I sketched over the image to show what some part of the process might be treating as the face.
The solution in this case should be simple (and again this would let you test to see if it is a culprit) - connect the middle vertex on the base of the quad to the vertex at the tip of the quad, giving two clear triangles and leaving no room for an export or import routine or a render engine to mis-read how to divide the vertices up into faces.
As I say if I get time I'll extract these parts and try just exporting those, see if it makes LUUV fall over, and see if adding those fixes clears it up. It may turn out those are not what are making the degenerate triangles, but they are the kinds of thing I would be looking for on the model that might be the cause even if these are not the specific ones.
HTH!
Tom
PS - amongst all this technical malarky, not sure I said that I think this is a great model, I love the amount of detail and attention that has gone into it!
PPS - I think there is a problem with the last quad, since as you can see it's black. It turned black when I point edited the object, suggesting that there is something in the geometry there giving tS some trouble. I didn't set out to fix it before grabbing and posting. |
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