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Slug Alien WIP
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Slug Alien WIP // Work in Progress
Post by Dragneye // Dec 14, 2008, 2:15pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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This will be my first effort using 7.6. No more 6.6. Left it on the old computer, which caught a bad cold, wiped out some programs, made a mess. So I took care of the problems. Got a new one.
My new-fangled puter better do it this time, or I'ma goin' back to oils. At least there, you buy a 15 dollar brush and you Know it will do what you want.
The detailed head in the back was my first foray in using the model-side for a base mesh, then zbrush detailing. This alien leader will have instead, three eyes only.
This model will be my test-drive using both sides. Wish me luck. So far so good though; having disliked this new interface all this time, tonight I actually enjoyed using the new widget. Am finding the basic tools I need, and starting to 'feel' it, this new interface.
Started with a simple base mesh for two reasons: 1. Wanted to make sure the booleans would work (I've heard more polys around boolean area is good. I find that less works best; less edges to create and get positioned right, and you can start at a minimum and work your way up to what finally Does boolean. (btw... I see a lot of new members. If my extra ranting can help anyone (like I was helped not too long ago] on their ride here, awesome. That's the point)
Next will boolean the eyes and then slice... I like to work on only half the model -less strain on the puter brain, and the translucence when in edit mode makes it hard to see when it adds 'the other side' in the view, so I cut it off. I 'slice' the side that will be added on the mirror-model side often so it's always perfect when I finally mirror.
I'll see how far I can get in modeling before I touch zbrush. This is one of the very few times I won't worry about poly count. Like I said; test drive. Let's see if I can crash this brand new 2.83GHz core 2 quad, 8GB DDR2, 1000GB, GTX 260 card screamin' demin'... lolol
Yeah... let's see :D |
Post by Steinie // Dec 14, 2008, 3:20pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Welcome back Dragneye. Nice to see you have a new toy. Now put it to work and knock our socks off. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Dec 17, 2008, 9:58am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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I like what you have going on here:cool:.....reminds me of the X-Files.
And as far as.....
....
My new-fangled puter better do it this time. Like I said; test drive. Let's see if I can crash
...."The Truth Is Out There"... |
Post by Dragneye // Dec 18, 2008, 1:01pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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:D Thanx Steinie. You're alright guy, ... even if ya are from Joysey.
Mr. 3d - that's interesting. Never considered the x files. Just out of curiosity, was there an episode with a creature like this?
This actually is from a contest entry pic. The pic turned out Real bad; I was embarrassed to have entered it, but I wanted a shot at the prize; a new puter. I had just started learning the program (Painter), and afraid I'd run out of time to do it in 3D, gave it a shot. Didn't work. But... I liked the alien, and promised myself I would make him in tS one day.
Tis the day :)
Actually, I'm trying to learn 7.6 with this model. The dragon wip I put aside so I don't screw anything up as that will be a full animation job. As far as the 'new' 7.6, so far... eh.
I gotta say it. -- NO preview render on the NEW workside?! WHAT?!
(To keep the balance) - I can select and/or make a whole loop with one shot, like the other programs? VERY cool. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Dec 18, 2008, 6:49pm
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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.... Never considered the x files. Just out of curiosity, was there an episode with a creature like this?
No....yours is an original to these eyes ! |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 5, 2009, 12:03pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Just a small update.
It was supposed to be just a detailed model, then painted by hand (the color you see is painted with Painter) just to get used to 7.6. Now don't know if I should bother to add a skeleton to this guy. Hmm, well, since I'm learning, I should I guess.
Which brings me to a thought. If animated, the head needs to move separately from the body (no head verts should affect his shell as that is supposed to be totally hard). Is my only and/or best option to separate the head now?
The brain will be 'squishy' and gravity has it laying on the shell like a large blob of fat. If I separate it, then I must deform it manually as it moves to show the fluidness. Hmm, is this my only option? (I have brainfreeze right now. Am I missing something?) |
Post by tahnoak // Jan 5, 2009, 12:29pm
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tahnoak
Total Posts: 487
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Everything you said is over my head but looks great nonetheless. |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 5, 2009, 12:58pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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:D
NO Problem! Please, just ask for clarification. You see, I was totally lost when I first started. I felt embarrassed to ask the simple, seemingly trivial questions, but, how was I ever going to advance? So I asked anyway. The folks here were kind and understanding. Would have quit tS if it wasn't for some of the people on this forum because Everything dealing with computers is totally new to me. I had to learn a new way of thinking, and a new language. For example: reading posts in the beginning, they were talking about 'verts' and 'edges'. I knew them as 'points' and 'lines'. Took me months to get used to the new descriptions. Something very trivial, but for me at the time, it was a Big deal.
So at least with me, ask for clarification about Anything. Feel free. |
Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 5, 2009, 3:50pm
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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I still don't know the lingo:D.....It's all alien to me !!!;) |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 5, 2009, 10:27pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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:D Not only that, but it also seems all Greek to me (I have a Greek background) many times :D
You can imagine my confusion at times then.
Just in case though... I'll try it this way.
Originally, my idea for this was to model it with tS 7.6 (with very detailed parts done in another program called zbrush). Then just take a picture of the model, and paint over that picture in another program called Painter (painting program. I paint; that's all I know. I painted in oils before I got into 3D. What these folks do with 'occlusion', and 'displacement maps', various other rendering options, etc, I only know to do by hand. Now I have to learn new things :) ).
Since I am trying to learn 7.6 (having only experience in 6.6, which is the 7.6 'Model' side equivalent), I figure I should go all the way and not only model it, but add a skeleton and animate it with 7.6 (practice for another WIP I have started with a dragon).
So, this is a 'one piece' model right now.
If I wish to animate it, the 'brain' of the creature must be wiggly, and undulating, like Jello. But the shell (blue part in the last picture) must be very hard, like a Ladybug's back, and so the brain cannot actually be part of the mesh that is the shell. Or can it? That was the question.
How can I make the brain vertices (points) wiggle and move around Without affecting the vertices that make up the shell? Imagine Jello on a moving object for example. They are separate objects, but they still must move together. |
Post by TomG // Jan 6, 2009, 2:12am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Making the jello effect with a skeleton would be tricky I think - by definition jello acts like it isn't supported on a rigid structure like bones. You might want to think about morphs instead for that. Use the point edit tools to adjust the brain, moving it, shifting vertices, making it shrink, expand, pulsate, shift around etc, and store various states (poses) as morphs. Then simply blend between those to make a whole set of different results.
Much easier to control and to set up than using skeletons, which really are intended to work like real life skeletons, ie to provide a rigid structure that moves softer surfaces built on top of those. Not really free form jello though.
Using morphs it would be fine to build it all as one mesh, as you make the poses using regular point editing, so don't need to move the shell at all (or you could in fact create morphs for the shell, select all the vertices for it, and have it shift as one unit to one side or the other, as if resting on top of a soft body - then you can separately blend those morphs with your jello brain morphs).
So that would be my first thought on tackling it. If you did want to use skeletons, you could set up the shell to be unaffected, by removing all weight painting from it - this would mean that the bones in the skeleton would have no effect on it at all. However, that could result in "tearing" and other unpleasant looks and results. Generally, best bet would be to make it separate, and then use "Attach object to skeleton" or "attach object to bone" (rather than "attach skin to skeleton") to add it as a separate rigid object that tracks the skeleton movement, but doesn't deform from it, and doesn't have to join up with the moving parts and possibly create unpleasant seams - this would be how you would add a metal breastplate to an armored character for instance, and it's a similar concept.
But I still say go with morphs :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 6, 2009, 7:37am
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Mr. 3d
Total Posts: 747
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Considering that movie animation is an artistic form of grouping and timing picture segments, I'd go with the quickest route and draw them on for the different movements your wanting to imply.
Creating bones for your character gives you the opportunity for creating quicker and more fluid motions. It's also exciting to see your creation come to life in 3D, rather than the tedious task of moving limbs in a Paint program (or on paper).
Many of the renders that tS will give during its motion process can be eliminated.....it only takes just a few pictures to obtain your desired effect.
It's all about the post timing when compiling your pictures in a Movie Making program (like Windows Movie Maker) that creates the illusion ! |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 6, 2009, 7:29pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Mr. 3d - you mean like the ole cel animators? Painting one frame at a time with slight adjutsment from one frame to the next, to show movement?
Ya know, Painter has that and have been dying to try it (good ole Walt Disney :) ), but the advantage of computer animation is that the tweenies (the frames between two chosen frames) are done by the program, saving a Ton of time.
TomG - good idea. Since the movements of the 'brain skin' will be small, I could adjust them by hand as I go along I guess. Hmm. Ok.
I don't Have to put a skeleton (just an opportunity to practice is all), as there won't be much movement to the model overall. Just the bottom of the slug body (for 'walking' ), and a slight turn of the head. Thank you.
And Happy New Years Tom. All the best. |
Post by mrbones // Jan 6, 2009, 8:47pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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You could cover it with hair and set the hair with a phys prop and it will undulate like seaweed in water. Or you could morph the faces underneath and the hair will move also for more control. Or you could try and use cloth to make it jiggle like jello, record a few seconds of the simulation, copy that clip move it to the end of the first clip then reverse that clip to create a perpetual brain throbbing effect. Great job by the way! |
Post by Steinie // Jan 7, 2009, 1:54am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Although I haven't tried trueSpace morphing yet, that would be the ticket for showing brain activity.
Have you seen Prodigy's "Patrick" morph?
The body would be boned if it was my project but I'm not sure about mixing the two. I would experiment just to get the knowledge and experience. |
Post by prodigy // Jan 7, 2009, 3:32am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Hi,
On the making of Patrick i use Bones for the body and morph for the fat.
Was simple, let me do an example. :) |
Post by prodigy // Jan 7, 2009, 4:07am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Ok, here is a small example.
The concept is quite simple:
In that scene you'll find a Cube object, (the "headless"character)
Ok, if you expand it on LE, you will see a Timer Event, linked to a Bounce Script.. if you enter on that Bounce Script, you will see how it works..
Is just a Sine.. In a few words, sine makes a wave cycles. So Many body parts acts like wave cycles.. For example we inhale and then we exhale...is a cycle..
I made a very simple object, added the morph..Added SDS levels, linked the Breath out to the morph value.. and that's all..
¡ɹǝʇɔɐɹɐɥɔ ɹnoʎ ɥʇıʍ dlǝɥ pǝǝu noʎ ɟı ǝɯ llǝʇ |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 7, 2009, 10:39am
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Thank you folks for helping this along.
Ok, first thing I need to understand: What is a 'Morph'?
Is it... 'change your model slightly from its previous position. Record the new position' = 1 Morph'?
'Again adjust your model slightly (for example: move a few vertices to their new position; different than their old position), record the new position' = 2nd Morph?
And/or... is there a specific 'Morph' button or morph operation in tS interface?
(side note: Prodigy! You are always cool. Please tell me what magic you used to do this? --> ¡ɹǝʇɔɐɹɐɥɔ ɹnoʎ ɥʇıʍ dlǝɥ pǝǝu noʎ ɟı ǝɯ llǝʇ <--
And, YES I do!) |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 7, 2009, 10:47am
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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PS: There's no overall index in the manual... again. Makes it Very hard to find where to look for specific info, or refind what I had read before (fleeting memory is payback for a wild times in my youth :D ) |
Post by TomG // Jan 7, 2009, 11:43am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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On the index, PDF files let you search a folder on the HD rather than "current document" - this will find, say, all occurences of "morph" in the manual, etc.
On morphs, you don't move vertices a little to make a morph, you move them a lot :) Let's say you wanted breathing - start with chest normal, record the default morph. Now move all the vertices to the most outward position, and record the next morph.
Morphs are controlled via a silder that adjusts how far "toward" that particular morph you are, so now you can animate breathing by moving the slider, as slow or as rapidly as you like. tS calculates the in-between states for you. This is why you record the extremes, and you get all the in-betweens from the slider.
Best yet, you can make your slider negative, and the morph reverses from the default position - so by making the chest expanded for breathing out, you move the slider away from the default position to make the chest collapse in, as if being pulled inward by muscles - all from just one morph.
Another good use of morphs is for facial expressions. Record default position, then point edit to make a smile for the mouth, and record another morph. Now move the eyebrows and record a morph. You can now mix the eyebrow movement and mouth movement, using the sliders for each. Keep going and you can puff out the cheeks, purse the lips, wrinkle the nose, furrow the brow, close the eyes. Now you have sliders for all those states and can mix and match - furrowed brow with reverse raised eyebrows with a smile with closed eyes; or wrinkled nose with closed eyes; etc etc.
You can mix partial amounts of each too. This lets you create many many possible states and animations, all from just a few morphs.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by mrbones // Jan 7, 2009, 12:02pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Try using soft selection tool when creating morphs,
You can also morph geometry changes, like sweep, for growing vines etc..
Any change made on the vertex level is recordable. and represented with a slider.
Thank you folks for helping this along.
Ok, first thing I need to understand: What is a 'Morph'?
Is it... 'change your model slightly from its previous position. Record the new position' = 1 Morph'?
'Again adjust your model slightly (for example: move a few vertices to their new position; different than their old position), record the new position' = 2nd Morph?
And/or... is there a specific 'Morph' button or morph operation in tS interface?
(side note: Prodigy! You are always cool. Please tell me what magic you used to do this? --> ¡ɹǝʇɔɐɹɐɥɔ ɹnoʎ ɥʇıʍ dlǝɥ pǝǝu noʎ ɟı ǝɯ llǝʇ <--
And, YES I do!) |
Post by prodigy // Jan 7, 2009, 12:59pm
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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:D plɹoʍ ɹnoʎ dılɟ puɐ ɯoɔ˙ǝlʇıʇdılɟ˙ʍʍʍ oʇ oƃ ¡¿ǝpnp dn s,ʇɐɥʍ |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 7, 2009, 1:07pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Got it!
So when you guys say 'morph', it just means rearranging a model's shape (or parts thereof) from one position to another, just like its simple definition.
I started getting the feeling I was missing something. Ok.
Thanx TomG and mrbones.
Ahh... Prodigy. I see you found what I saw :D
Ok, so going to go through the process and will post my results soon. Thanx again. |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 9, 2009, 1:22pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Painful update...
Very disheartened. I have complained before how tS crashes Way too much. I blamed my video card. That was the old computer.
This new computer (see the stats in my signature) should handle this stuff no problem (zbrush: 1.2 Million polys... no problem).
It *beepin* crashed BAD.
340,000 polys... boom!
85,000 polys...Boom!
Son of a ....!!!
Let's say... it's my computer, before I quit this 7.6 bs and look elsewhere. Let's say it's just me.
QUE: Importing an .obj file created in zbrush. There is the normal obj plugin (modelside), and (upper rightish side on modelside screen) the 'TS6.6 Files' icon.
Should I use one or the other to import an obj file... Overall?
Does one or the other avoid problems? Or does it not make a difference? |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 9, 2009, 1:29pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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A tree with 500 000 polys..... boom (i have a quadcore with 3 gig)
If youve read my thread on trees you will know that we are all in your club !
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=90618&postcount=7
plus read this :
I did a test a time ago !
Workspace is a lot better then model side and Luuv is better then the in built option for loading
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5019&highlight=million+polys |
Post by TomG // Jan 9, 2009, 1:43pm
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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The LUUV plugin does a better job on importing than the tS6.6 files importer for OBJ. I use LUUV every time.
Note that you can get crashes on import and export depending on geometry, eg if the geometry has holes or a certain missing triangulation, the export will crash. I have to manually triangulate the problem areas (I'm coming to recognize those now, fortunately, so can predict better what will work).
There could be a similar issue when importing - the other program may not have cared about the triangulation (as tS itself doesn't care), but LUUV may care. So it might be more than just poly count.
One thing though, LUUV is pretty old, so it could be running out of memory for itself or similar. It may not be taking full advantage of all that a modern system has to offer, since back when LUUV was new, having 512Mb of memory was a lot!
A new OBJ import / export direct from the workspace is something I'd like to see myself :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 9, 2009, 3:25pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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RAYMAN - quite frankly, I am DISGUSTED. I can appreciate that all these large calculations are an issue with all programs and computers. Fine... but. I am trying to make a living at this. The 3D world I've entered isn't just for fun; it needs to be my Job. I CANNOT have this garbage going on.
Just about Any computer/program can deal with 10,000 poly scenes. What about beyond that?
I am delaying my work on a movie project I have been hired to model/animate for. They don't need me... I need them. I have to show progress, or they'll find someone else. I just spent money on a new computer. Is Lightwave just as buggy? Is 3DS Max just as buggy? I Really need answers and solutions, Now.
The only example I have is zbrush. Yes it does only a few things, but it does them Very well, and However it does it, it handles upto a Billion polys with relative ease. And I'm having problems with 40,000 polys?!
But I NEED not only a modeling software, but also an efficient and effective animation, rendering program. The only reason you folks haven't seen any animations from me is because of the frustration with this tS crashing, which started last year when I started trying to produce quality work. You folks haven't seen any of that, only lite practice stuff and simple models. I revisited tS this year, willing to blame myself and learn from the beginning. Am I wasting my time here (the appreciation and respect I have for this forum community and quite frankly any of the staff I have dealt with, will never be diminished, or forgotten. Nothing to do with my frustrations with the program)
ANYBODY. PM me. Give me answers. |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 9, 2009, 3:35pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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note: Sorry RAYMAN - I wasn't venting at you per se. Just that my frustration is reaching its boiling point. I hope you understand it is NOT anything to do with you personally. And thank you for the understanding you tried to show in your post. Very appreciated. :D |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 9, 2009, 3:44pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Tom, I have had no problems while importing a high poly model. Though at times slow, (I don't even move the mouse till it finishes doing its job just to avoid any conflicts) it eventually completes. The only thing is I may have to flip its faces at times.
It's when I have tried to edit the imported object that the headaches begin; on both model and/or workspace side. And I'm just talking something simple like deleting a loop... bang, crash.
Also has crashed previously while doing preview renders (that was with 6.6), and adding or adjusting skeletons, on relatively simple models with poly counts no more than 10k. |
Post by TomG // Jan 9, 2009, 4:44pm
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Sorry to hear of the problems :( Again, not sure if its poly count, or something in the way the geometry is set up that is just "bad" as far as tS is concerned. Moving a model from one app to another is often an unpleasant experience (COLLADA in both directions at some point, and FBX maybe, and perhaps even further improved X format).
Some ideas that might or might not help.
1. Try "Fix Bad Geometry" tool in Model side. This might correct any problem geometry.
2. Try triangulating or quadrifying the mesh in tS before any other edits. You can try both workspace and Model side for that.
3. Another format other than OBJ might work - X format maybe, or 3DS in ascii. It may give more luck.
4. Try the "boolean subtract a non touching cube with delete edges enabled" - this might tidy up a problem area, or make things more manageable by removing non-necessary triangulation.
Hope something in there might prove helpful.
Tom |
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