Seems I'm being ignored

About Truespace Archives

These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.

They are retained here for archive purposes only.

Seems I'm being ignored // Rants and Raves

1  |  

Post by remnar // Sep 14, 2008, 7:22pm

remnar
Total Posts: 105
It seems that way though probably no one not even the devs are interested in my questions or in anything I'm posting lately. I'm alone developing plugins, so I have no support unless I moved over to workspace. I feel I'm wasting my time, though I want to finish up this Scatter project soon (and it's getting there).

Post by Tiles // Sep 14, 2008, 9:21pm

Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
pic
I think the main problem is that nobody else wants to dive into the old 6.6 code anymore. Devs are busy with the new baby. And most of the old plugin devs have long moved. So there is nobody there that could answer your questions ...

Post by remnar // Sep 14, 2008, 9:50pm

remnar
Total Posts: 105
Well it isn't just questions on old code (I don't expect support on it), it's also about a problem I have with a registry key that seems to be missing and other questions I had. It just seems quiet lately, while I'm the only one talking. These problems I usually fix eventually. It just seems strange that I get no responses unless I start being annoying or saying something in this part of the forum. I do appreciate the few comments I get on my work but the many lookers and no responses seems a tad annoying sometimes. I also usually don't want to bring attention to myself, but I guess I'm just having another one of those weeks. :p

Post by transient // Sep 14, 2008, 10:20pm

transient
Total Posts: 977
pic
The scatter plug-in is great. :) I haven't had a chance to have a look at the new version, but I will soon.


I hope you don't get too discouraged - there's still a few poeple here who use 6.6/ modeler as much as workspace, if not more. I think if more newbies knew about plug-ins like this, they would too.

Post by splinters // Sep 14, 2008, 10:27pm

splinters
Total Posts: 4148
pic
I would guess that Dev's are hard at work on that promised patch if that is any consolation. I do think you will struggle for support with model side (old) code though, regardless of how busy they may be...:o

Post by MikeJoel // Sep 15, 2008, 1:14pm

MikeJoel
Total Posts: 266
I don't know if this is true, but I have have had the feeling (from seeing questions about older ts versions and the answers they get) that the caligari is pretty much going to stick to the "that is the old version and we don't support it" kind of thing. It is only a feeling and it may be completely and utterly wrong.


Example would be someone asked about getting 3.2 because their system crashed and they lost it. The answer was they don't provide it. I asked if it would be ok to provide the person a copy (seeing that they obviously had been registered to use it), there was never any answer.


So like I said it is just a feeling I got from seeing questions and answers.


Mike

Post by transient // Sep 15, 2008, 2:34pm

transient
Total Posts: 977
pic
3.2 is ancient history. You can't expect Caligari to support software that's four versions past it's used-by date.


I really like 6.6/ modeler, but I also agree that Caligari should be putting their resources into supporting the new sdk, as this is more important by far. It would be better imo if Remnar could get some official help developing a workspace version of his plug-in.

Post by MikeJoel // Sep 15, 2008, 2:38pm

MikeJoel
Total Posts: 266
Up until 7.5 release for free they had been providing it for free with registration. They had also from what I could tell, had a very nice following over at the ALICE site.


I don't think anyone expects support for 3.2, but they weren't expecting caligari to simply drop everything they had. It was rather unexpected.


Mike

Post by transient // Sep 15, 2008, 3:27pm

transient
Total Posts: 977
pic
I don't think anyone expected 7.6 to be free, but once that happened 3.2 was pretty much history. It doesn't make sense to me to have two free programs.


I'm surprised they kept it going as long as they did.

Post by remnar // Sep 15, 2008, 4:31pm

remnar
Total Posts: 105
Well as I said before, I'm not really too concerned with SDK support. It just gets frustrating sometimes that any question I ask gets looked at and have no responses. I don't expect one immediately, but after 2 or 3 days I wonder if I should press or move on. I know I sound whiny sometimes, it pretty much depends on my frustration and mood level. I am motivated by user input, so if I get none, I have to come up with my own ideas and hope they work for some other user.


As for the new SDK, it's too complicated. I like to learn new things, but my mind feels numb to the complexity and I have no motivation to even try to work with it. Though that is strange, because the Scatter plugin I'm working on, though is for model side, is very complex and I'm able to know how every thing works and where stuff is w/o using a flow chart.


Right now I'm cleaning up the plugin, getting bugs fixed, adding in features for animation, and getting the tool tips updated. Plus I also need to do the documentation. My only problem with the hints and documentation is that trying to explain something doesn't sound very intelligent or sounds a bit awkward in some things. Like I have a hard time explaining what the interpolation check box is for. I'm trying to explain it assuming the user doesn't know what interpolate means, and I find that very difficult. I know what it does, but I don't know how to explain it very well unless I give an example of it being on and off. I could use a hand on things like this, from a math savvy person. I also could use ideas on how the random option in Transformation and Animation features in Particle Manager should work. I'm using some basic math concepts on those, the current results aren't something I think people want.


If people want to know why I'm bothering with this age old plugin, it's because I got a lot of free time at the moment, and I want to contribute to something more than waisting time at a video game. Since I'm not a talented artist, I can contribute in some way with this plugin. However It's taking a very long time and even if I were to finish everything up, it still lacks the features I want in it because I lack the 3d math skills and nurbs knowledge. Once I'm done with this plugin, I'm not sure what else to do. I have an idea to remake the edge modeler plugin (strutting i think its called), but only if people will find use for it. That is a lot more math orientated plugin as it's very tricky trying to rotate geometry so it's one edge is looking in the same direction as the edge it's on. Then there's Light Manager, which needs a bit of work but I could get it released soon. The Light Manager is like Particle Manager for Scatter, but only for lights in the scene with access to most of their features. I could make a video tutorial on how to make a modeler plugin using Delphi, only if people would find that useful. I have some ideas, but I prefer some user feed back. I know there is some requests posted for workspace plugins, but by the time ts8 is out, I'm sure many of those would be implemented. In fact I don't know if any one has made any workspace plugins yet except Caligari's examples (which are good). My only concern with that is will a developer be able to create a custom controls on a dialog w/o using MFC, since MFC can't be used with ATL? Oops that's a technical question, doesn't belong here. :p

Post by Emmanuel // Sep 15, 2008, 11:45pm

Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
pic
Well as I said before, I'm not really too concerned with SDK support. It just gets frustrating sometimes that any question I ask gets looked at and have no responses. I don't expect one immediately, but after 2 or 3 days I wonder if I should press or move on.

I know how frustrating it is to spend time on explanations to clearely expose a problem, and get back to the forum every hour to check if someone came with a solution, and only find an empty thread :(
Thinking positive, having many visits and no reply may also mean that a lot of people are interested in the response :)



If people want to know why I'm bothering with this age old plugin, it's because I got a lot of free time at the moment, and I want to contribute to something more than waisting time at a video game.

All the community appreciate your efforts.
Without the numerous plugins made by people like you, I would have quit using trueSpace and moved to an other program several years ago.
The power of trueSpace is that many of its tools are made by the artists themselfs -and artists know probably better than pure coders what they need and how they want it to work-.



I have an idea to remake the edge modeler plugin (strutting i think its called), but only if people will find use for it.

I have never heard of a plugin called Strutting. Are you thinking of PipeWorks ?
If so, please find below that old plugin with source (in C++ I belive). I hope it will help though.



I could make a video tutorial on how to make a modeler plugin using Delphi, only if people would find that useful.

Usefull, usefull, usefull !!! :jumpy::jumpy::jumpy:



I have some ideas, but I prefer some user feed back.

Here is my feedback ;) :
Although I am impressed by the power of Scatter that allows for complex geometry creation in a minute, I haven't found the occasion to use it in a professional work yet. Maybe because of its complexity, but also maybe because such geometries are rather rare in the projects I'm working on.

Again, I would have immediate use of the growing polygons tool described in the animated arrow thread (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3971), so I really hope you could re-use portions of Scatter code for a tool dedicated to that particular use !



Now regarding the Workspace/Modeler dilemna for enthusiast plugin developper, here is my input :

Right now, I am doing more animation work.
One may say that Workspace is the place to work in, to enjoy the speed of real-time renderer and the enhanced animation editor.
But the fact is that Workspace lacks too many tools and that I don't have time to create my own tools and behaviors in the Link Editor.
In other word, I prefer to have 100 plugins as tools made for one use, than 1 interface (LE) where I am supposed to be able to create the infinity of all the tools I may need.
Other part of the problem is that making plugins for Workspace requires real skills in development. And therefore I doubt Workspace will ever be as rich of the thousand plugins made for tS4/5/6 by amateurs. Workspace's SDK complexity means that Workspace plugins will probably be very professional tools made by professionals for professional that could afford their price.

Next, Lighworks, with proper lights and material settings can render very fast, so the Workspace's real-time is not a so strong argument in real-life projects.

The conclusion it that Modeler actually remains -and will still be for at least a couple of years!- the best environment for projects that are not specifically intented for real-time/online render.

So, yes, it is worth learning tS6.6 SDK.
It is worth making tools for Modeler.
It is worth supporting Dribble and other usefull plugins designed to run in the part of the program we WORK in :cool:

Post by Nez // Sep 16, 2008, 12:39am

Nez
Total Posts: 1102
pic
I have to agree with a lot of Emmanuel's points here - I for one am very glad to see that there are folks not giving up on the model side... as a long timer tS5 user I've been able to enjoy various tsx over the years (albeit a lot less than him! could do with a few more!) and whilst some of that functionality has ended up being built into the model-side directly in later versions (or even into workspace), not all of it has yet.


As I've only got a half-working version of 7.6 on my work machine (only Model side works at present) and my home machine is on Win98, my immediate future will also remain model-side - and it seems likely that even longer term it will probably be my main arena for some time yet in terms of any real output as I'll be using Lightworks until such time I can win VRay (which is unlikely before tS20 comes out...)


Remnar - I'm afraid I can't help answer your questions as I have no developing experience at all and haven't yet tried any incarnation of your Scatter plug-in as I believed the original was for tS6 and above, which I didn't have until I got 7.6 installed last week. I'll have to have a look at it as it sounds interesting - as does the Pipeworks tsx Emmanuel attached. But I do appreciate your hardwork (and should have said so before rather than simply passing no comment) - I'm sure there's a number of us who remain quite committed to Model side and will rejoice in additional tools for it - long live the TSX...:D

Post by frootee // Sep 16, 2008, 4:27am

frootee
Total Posts: 2667
pic
Hi Remnar and everyone.

I've scanned your posts remnar but haven't replied simply because I don't have an answer. I checked them in the hopes that I would have one. I'll take a closer look when I have an opportunity.


I've been focusing on the 7.6 SDK, working on a plugin to accomplish 2 tasks: 1) exercise the SDK, to expose bugs and issues with documentation 2) make a cool special effects related plugin.


I made one very simple, never released plugin with the 6.6 SDK; but I found a considerable number of missing items in the documentation so I basically gave up. I had similar issues: I'd post questions but would rarely get an answer (thanks to those who did respond!).


True, the current SDK appears more complex On The Surface. But if you experiment with the examples, and single step through them in debug mode, you will see that they all follow a pattern to the creation/construction of nodes and commands.


Regarding custom controls, I would say, if ATL dialogs accept custom controls, then you should have no problem. I have not checked that out yet. Also, ATL dialogs may not be the only solution. Ideally, we should be able to tap into the truespace interface, and build our components using the truespace interface 'parts'. That would allow for a more natural looking plugin interface, if it looks similar to the truespace interface.


The SDK is still under development; bear in mind this public release is still a Beta release. So it is still subject to change. If you want something added/changed now is the time to mention it.


Froo

Post by remnar // Sep 16, 2008, 8:08pm

remnar
Total Posts: 105
First I must apologize for my excessive whining. Like I said I'm having one of those weeks, and I'm looking for attention in the wrong places :rolleyes:

I also thank every one for your responses. Now I have a clearer understanding of where people are in the new Truespace version. I find the workspace side to be great for modeling (see Organics modeling course), and some animation. But for everything else, modeler has the tools and plugins for it.


Wow, pipeworks, I totally forgot about that. Thanks for linking that plugin. Now that I think about it, the features of that plugin was a lot easier to make in vc++ because it was easier to do the pointer (memory address) manipulation to form the closing ends of the geometry. It was meant for Truespace 4.3, though I think I scrapped it because of the Nurbs features in 5.x and 6.x. However the strutting feature is something that can be used.


As for the new SDK, I'm reading and re-reading the document on it. I think I have a understanding what a package is now. What I have a problem with is how the SDK functions are accessed. It isn't straight forward as in the previous SDK, and there are a lot of things that confuse me. ATL/COM is like another language. As for SDK features, I was browsing through all the classes but I couldn't find anything that supports copying Truespace objects. So that brings me to how a programmer would make a copy and place it into the Space3d.

Post by frootee // Sep 16, 2008, 11:37pm

frootee
Total Posts: 2667
pic
Hi remnar.

I know this is a rant n rave so we should probably move the conversation here to the SDK & plugins thread. :)


Check out the topology example. Basically you:


1) Find the 3d space encapsulator,


2) create an encapsulator node for your object


3) add your geometry node to your created encapsulator node


4) add a transform node to your created encapsulator node


5) add this node to the 3d space encapsulator


Now, to make a copy, the docs should have something similar to a Node.Copy method. I don't have them right in front of me but once

you make your copy you would have to perform step 5) in a similar fashion.

I have not tried it yet.

Post by Norm // Sep 17, 2008, 5:39am

Norm
Total Posts: 862
pic
There are probably several items that will have a bearing on the new sdk question.

IRiNodeItem::Create is one method that will be of value. It has a script example code, but I am sure the logic will be of value when using c++. Create allows you to create and instance of an object inside a given encapsulator (Space3D is itself just an encapsulating object).There is also a host of methods to create, remove, connect, disconnect and rename connections on nodes. Lots of potential in this one :)

IRfEncapsulatorSet is a function set that can be used to create an encapsulator object, give it a name and also encapsulate a "list" of objects inside. Handy if the encapsulator is not yet created.
There are probably other interfaces that would be of some value as well, but these two were sort of fresh in memory for me so I am able to mention them :)

Post by remnar // Sep 18, 2008, 1:33pm

remnar
Total Posts: 105
One of the things I was unclear of in the SDk is what a node and a object is. In the old SDK, an object was an actual object in the Truespace scene. however as I read the documentation, an object is a container inside a package? And when I think of node, my mind is thinking about connector nodes that hook things up in the LE lol. I guess I need a clear definition of a object and a node in the documentation. Or perhaps these are ATL concepts, and therefor I'd be able to understand it if I knew ATL? I am also wondering what exactly is Rosetta. Is it a scripting language or a set of rules? Also if it's possible, have a mod move this and the previous 2 posts to a new post in the SDK forum.

Post by trueBlue // Sep 18, 2008, 2:05pm

trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
pic
Hummm...just when I thought everything in tS7 was an Object, even scenes. :cool:
Awportals.com is a privately held community resource website dedicated to Active Worlds.
Copyright (c) Mark Randall 2006 - 2021. All Rights Reserved.
Awportals.com   ·   ProLibraries Live   ·   Twitter   ·   LinkedIn