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Some thoughts....
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Some thoughts.... // Rants and Raves
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 9, 2008, 4:32pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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The Roundtable forum is for general discussion right? If this is not the appropriate forum perhaps Norm could shift it to Rants and Raves.
Part of my personal mission in life is to strive to make a difference, to encourage a positive and productive way to communicate with and support my fellow Human beings. This is based on the principle of treating others as I wish to be treated. This is a policy that has worked for me in my life.
For this reason, when I see people express things negatively I try to present a more positive way of expressing things. For the same reason, when I see Caligari or trueSpace or any person who is a member of these forums being treated unfairly I attempt to point out the unfairness and seek ways of addressing those legitimate concerns in a fair and reasoned manner. This has lead to some lively and interesting conversations (not to mention very long posts!).
Sadly however, in recent months I have been repeatedly criticised and attacked. I've been called names and have been accused of seeking to inflame situations unjustly. When I have questioned those responsible asking for some reason or explanation for these hurtful remarks there has been no reply.
In a recent PM conversation my correspondent observed that I am "getting a reputation as Forum Police". I certainly do not see myself as such but I can easily understand how that could come about.
I'm putting myself in a difficult position. I've been taught that all it takes for evil to prosper is for good folk to do nothing. I've also learnt to treat others as I would be treated - which means that I will defend someone I see being unfairly treated. I hope someone would rise to my defence should I be unfairly treated. Additionally, if I'm treating someone unfairly I would want someone else to step in and point out why I am in error.
So what am I to do when I see unfairness on the forum? Turn the other cheek? Or suggest a better way?
Turning the other cheek strikes me as the cowardly option yet in daring to suggest a better way I am met with insults and unsupported accusations from an undisciplined minority. I do not wish to be subjected to such negativity or hostility and I do not know how to feel comfortable about not speaking my truth in defence of the wrongly maligned.
The application of reductionism suggests that I can either say nothing and still be subjected to this negativity or to address it and be subjected to further negativity - a classic Lose/Lose scenario.
Improv suggests that if I don't like I shouldn't read it - not the most positive suggestion but perhaps he is right and I should cease participating in these forums altogether....
:( |
Post by Burnart // Jun 9, 2008, 6:09pm
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Burnart
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I certainly don't want you to interpret this as a denial of your experience but are you really sure that you aren't taking the hurly-burly of forum interchanges a little too much to heart? Don't worry - be happy - water of a ducks back and all that. Your contribution around here is valued. |
Post by transient // Jun 9, 2008, 6:18pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Improv suggests that if I don't like I shouldn't read it - not the most positive suggestion but perhaps he is right and I should cease participating in these forums altogether....
Someone please tell me this isn't a dream.;)*
I'd also like to add that it wasn't me that was part of the mysterious pm that apparently caused this thread, although I'm guessing that I am both "prospering evil" and part of an "undisciplined minority", apparently.:p
Actually, this probably isn't the worst thing Wizard has said about me, thanks man!:banana:
*This is a joke, I have nothing against Wizard personally, please keep your pants on |
Post by jamesmc // Jun 9, 2008, 6:37pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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And how about those Dutch! |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 10, 2008, 12:55am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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I wish I'd never posted that bloody link now!
BTW, 'If you don't like it, don't read it' is a slightly flawed argument - if you don't read it, how are you going to know you don't like it? :) |
Post by Steinie // Jun 10, 2008, 1:09am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Wizard "For this reason, when I see people express things negatively I try to present a more positive way of expressing things."
That is a noble goal however the people expressing displeasure are addressing Caligari and not you. I think when you jump in with your view (right or wrong) you are interfering with their complaint. You can see this through out the Forums where someones complains about a missing feature, a bug, a promise, etc and someone else jumps in with a quick remark. The feeling would then be Caligari doesn't respond, doesn't care, they still haven't fixed it....
As far as the attacks against you? Here is how I handle it. I KNOW who I am. I KNOW who my friends are. On this forum we are big Avatar heads with no bodies. We can't be touched. So if you are secure with your feelings about yourself, nothing said here should effect or change your life. If it is only a few people just block them and your life will improve. Most of the people here I value their opinions (like yours). If there are trouble makers to me they don't exist.
If the attacks are serious, just report it and let the powers to be handle it.
I try to have fun here. That is why I am here. Learning more about our favorite software or helping someone else should be fun. Most of us "Get it" |
Post by brotherx // Jun 10, 2008, 1:32am
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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For this reason, when I see people express things negatively I try to present a more positive way of expressing things.
I have probably been guilty of this too. I can think of a couple of recent incidents where this has happened.
If you don't like it, don't read it
Yeah, the problem IS how do you know if you're not going to like this. However, try and ignore it. I quite often do but there have been a couple of times where post after post is so negative that it frustrates me and I stick an oar in...not clever really.
I think the solution is that the negative folks should try and look for the positive a little more and the positive folks should try and see the negative folks point of view and sympathise with them.
I've been called names
The name calling thing has never personally ever happened to me but I have seen it in the forum a couple of times. It is so childish to resort to that when you are not happy with what someone has said - ignore it, it's their opinion.
Works both ways. |
Post by TigreStripe // Jun 10, 2008, 1:49am
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TigreStripe
Total Posts: 75
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The Roundtable forum is for general discussion right? If this is not the appropriate forum perhaps Norm could shift it to Rants and Raves.
Part of my personal mission in life is to strive to make a difference, to encourage a positive and productive way to communicate with and support my fellow Human beings. This is based on the principle of treating others as I wish to be treated. This is a policy that has worked for me in my life.
For this reason, when I see people express things negatively I try to present a more positive way of expressing things. For the same reason, when I see Caligari or trueSpace or any person who is a member of these forums being treated unfairly I attempt to point out the unfairness and seek ways of addressing those legitimate concerns in a fair and reasoned manner. This has lead to some lively and interesting conversations (not to mention very long posts!).
Sadly however, in recent months I have been repeatedly criticised and attacked. I've been called names and have been accused of seeking to inflame situations unjustly. When I have questioned those responsible asking for some reason or explanation for these hurtful remarks there has been no reply.
In a recent PM conversation my correspondent observed that I am "getting a reputation as Forum Police". I certainly do not see myself as such but I can easily understand how that could come about.
I'm putting myself in a difficult position. I've been taught that all it takes for evil to prosper is for good folk to do nothing. I've also learnt to treat others as I would be treated - which means that I will defend someone I see being unfairly treated. I hope someone would rise to my defence should I be unfairly treated. Additionally, if I'm treating someone unfairly I would want someone else to step in and point out why I am in error.
So what am I to do when I see unfairness on the forum? Turn the other cheek? Or suggest a better way?
Turning the other cheek strikes me as the cowardly option yet in daring to suggest a better way I am met with insults and unsupported accusations from an undisciplined minority. I do not wish to be subjected to such negativity or hostility and I do not know how to feel comfortable about not speaking my truth in defence of the wrongly maligned.
The application of reductionism suggests that I can either say nothing and still be subjected to this negativity or to address it and be subjected to further negativity - a classic Lose/Lose scenario.
Improv suggests that if I don't like I shouldn't read it - not the most positive suggestion but perhaps he is right and I should cease participating in these forums altogether....
:(
Wizard,
I don't apologize for being me. Good or bad. I could post rants about TS but I don't want to waste bandwidth when others have already went on about the same things I would have. I would think that's positive. Well, more or less.
I've thought that many here are very forgiving of Caligari and your probably the most forgiving person of any product I have ever EVER seen.:) It's not a bad thing. People choose a car, software, soda, religion, politics and their brand of socks and defend it to the end. That's Human beings. I think when some see a ultra positive fanatic, they can't stand it. I prefer a balance of postive and negative. Be positive when required and negative like wise. Be human. But I have often wondered. Do your fingers get bloody tired!? :D
Oh yeah. I do apologize for being a bad me sometimes.
The wife has told me if I do not, she's going to smother me in my sleep. |
Post by frootee // Jun 10, 2008, 2:00am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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I wish I'd never posted that bloody link now!
BTW, 'If you don't like it, don't read it' is a slightly flawed argument - if you don't read it, how are you going to know you don't like it? :)
Well I still say I liked that link Witchy. :) |
Post by brotherx // Jun 10, 2008, 2:08am
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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Em, I'm secretly a bot posting random comments. How can I be human.
Blah. |
Post by TomG // Jun 10, 2008, 2:31am
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TomG
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I liked the link too. Those very ads used to cause me to roll around with laughter when I was a kid, they were my favorites on television.
You cant help but read something you dont like as noted, since you'll only know after reading it that you didnt like it. You can choose to skip reading posts by an individual who you know "bothers" you I guess.
In truth, we are not all going to get along or like each other, since there are enough people from enough walks of life that there will be different opinions on here, even opposed opinions. How we handle that is up to each of us too, I guess. When it crosses the line, moderation can be used - we use it very very rarely, we like to try and keep the community as close to uncensored as we can, but it has been used before when needed.
But its best if the community and the individuals within it figure out for themselves what is the best and most constructive action they can take that they feel is the right thing to do.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by frootee // Jun 10, 2008, 2:39am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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true Tom; one thing that is actually just plain common sense is, to not come in here with an 'attitude' or a 'chip on the shoulder', so to speak. Quite honestly that is really annoying. Human nature is to react, to respond in order to rectify the situation. Ignoring the individual in question is very hard to do, though it is probably a better route. Let them have their little temper tantrum and spaz out, then leave. Then we just move on, forward and upward. |
Post by transient // Jun 10, 2008, 3:19am
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Total Posts: 977
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one thing that is actually just plain common sense is, to not come in here with an 'attitude' or a 'chip on the shoulder', so to speak.
And how are you supposed to judge who these people are? The ones who don't want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya when vray crashes?
These forums are for anyone who paid for Truespace, chip or otherwise. I'm sure Tom will agree that if some users aren't satisfied, they should be able to air their opinions without a witch-hunt.
I think the op unfortunately has a very selective memory when it comes to the personal attacks that happen on these forums. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 10, 2008, 3:20am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Wizard,
I don't apologize for being me. Good or bad. I could post rants about TS but I don't want to waste bandwidth when others have already went on about the same things I would have. I would think that's positive. Well, more or less.
I've thought that many here are very forgiving of Caligari and your probably the most forgiving person of any product I have ever EVER seen.:) It's not a bad thing. People choose a car, software, soda, religion, politics and their brand of socks and defend it to the end. That's Human beings. I think when some see a ultra positive fanatic, they can't stand it. I prefer a balance of postive and negative. Be positive when required and negative like wise. Be human. But I have often wondered. Do your fingers get bloody tired!? :D
Oh yeah. I do apologize for being a bad me sometimes.
The wife has told me if I do not, she's going to smother me in my sleep.
LOL Good post tigrestripe - I guess I'm not really looking for apologies as much as I'm looking for pleasantness. By definition, being pleasant must be more pleasant than being unpleasant - seems like a pretty simple equation to me.
But I'm happy to swap your apology with one of my own - I apologise if I come across as an "ultra positive fanatic". That makes me sound like a one man Brady Bunch on steroids!! I think I am reasonably balanced - I don't agree with everything Caligari does but then nor do I expect to. I don't believe that tS is a perfect piece of faultless software but then again, nor do I expect it to be.
I do feel however that there is a world of difference between discussing weaknesses and areas of potential development and simply consistently slagging the company/software/person involved. But I've said all this before.
Do my fingers get tired? Not often. I have two PC's and when my main machine is rendering or I need to take a break from modelling or whatever I just grab the other keyboard and let my fingers do the talking. OK yes I can get long winded - but if something is worth saying it's worth saying as well as you can say it. Blame my Dad, he was a newspaper man all his working life and he taught me to love language.
Finally, please don't let your wife smother you in your sleep - that would be extremely negative and I'd feel compelled to leap to your defence!!;) |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 10, 2008, 3:37am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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And how are you supposed to judge who these people are? The ones who don't want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya when vray crashes?
These forums are for anyone who paid for Truespace, chip or otherwise. I'm sure Tom will agree that if some users aren't satisfied, they should be able to air their opinions without a witch-hunt.Even when the opinions are inflammatory, defamatory, unbalanced and biased? Entitlement to an opinion does not entitle anyone to make false accusations.
And how come the users who are dissatisfied with trueSpace should be able to air their opinions but those dissatisfied with the way those opinions are expressed get called witch-hunters?
I think the op unfortunately has a very selective memory when it comes to the personal attacks that happen on these forums.Then perhaps you can provide some actual quotes to back up this claim? My memory may well be selective, I'm only human.
Dodgy memory or not I'm pretty sure I never called anyone a moron ;) |
Post by transient // Jun 10, 2008, 3:59am
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transient
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Deleted for the sake of forum harmony. |
Post by frootee // Jun 10, 2008, 4:01am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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And how are you supposed to judge who these people are? The ones who don't want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya when vray crashes?
These forums are for anyone who paid for Truespace, chip or otherwise. I'm sure Tom will agree that if some users aren't satisfied, they should be able to air their opinions without a witch-hunt.
I think the op unfortunately has a very selective memory when it comes to the personal attacks that happen on these forums.
No transient. Not at all. I don't like it when things break either and yes I complain about it as well. I am not referring to anyone who complains that truespace/Vray crashes. Why would I do that? We as customers have a right to complain about a product crashing.
I will clarify. By having an 'attitude', or a 'chip on the shoulder', I am referring to an individual who comes in and makes a sarcastic remark about a contribution from someone else. |
Post by frootee // Jun 10, 2008, 4:26am
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frootee
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BTW.... Norm can you move this to the rants n raves forum please? I think that's the more appropriate place for this.
If we move it there it won't preclude other conversations in the Roundtable about truespace etc.
If not that's ok too... :D
Thanks man!
Froo / Jason |
Post by brotherx // Jun 10, 2008, 4:29am
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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Guess what guys....VRay just crashed on me :D
he he.
I was running it on my office machine since my home PC is out of commision at the moment and was using more that my fair share of memory when it just died...oh well.
Doesn't often do that for me... |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 10, 2008, 4:33am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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If you bait people enough, they will react. Don't flame people, saying they should gf because they "lack credibility", and expect them to say thanks.
That's nuts.I agree completely Transient. What baffles me is why you seem to think that I bait people, flame people, say they should gf (assuming that means what I assume it means;)) say they lack credibility or expect them to say thanks. If I've done any one of those things please show me where so I can attempt to make it right.
Acting that way is, as you say, nuts. You appear to be suggesting that I have acted this way - if so, please show me where.
Perhaps we need a control exercise, and should start a thread on a professionals forum like cgtalk and discuss these issues. I'm sure the stress that some people feel about Caligari's damaged image on these forums would have a different view afterwards.
Everyone I talk to about Caligari outside of these forums, and I mean everyone, basically pays me out for ever considering to buy this software. I try to tell them how cool 6.6 has turned out to be and I get laughed at.
Do I act like a motard and attack them? Of course not. Where's the future in that? I'm not talking about people outside these forums, I'm talking specifically about people - knowingly or unknowingly - making false claims about other people including the company and the software and then not backing those claims up. I'm talking about it specifically in the context of this forum.
Once again, if you are suggesting that I have acted like a motard (cool word I've never heard it before - not sure I want to know what it means:)) and that I have attacked anyone, please show me where - a quote or a link to a post which can be seen as a motardly attack by me upon another person on these forums.
All I want is the same courtesy here.You want courtesy? I believe you should have the same courtesy as anyone else and I'm perfectly happy to give you all due respect and courtesy.
If however, you are going to accuse me, or imply that I'm guilty of, flaming or attacking anyone, please do me the courtesy of showing me where.
If you can't back up your claims then isn't what you are saying little more than character assassination? Where's the courtesy in that?
I mean no sarcasm here - I genuinely want to know. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 10, 2008, 4:41am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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BTW.... Norm can you move this to the rants n raves forum please? I think that's the more appropriate place for this.
If we move it there it won't preclude other conversations in the Roundtable about truespace etc.
If not that's ok too... :D
Thanks man!
Froo / Jason
For what it's worth Froo I'd rather it stayed right here in the Roundtable forum - those who want no part of it can simply ignore this thread. I believe this conversation reflects directly on forum etiquette and is there fore entirely appropriate in the Roundtable forum.
To Quote Toms earlier post "its best if the community and the individuals within it figure out for themselves what is the best and most constructive action they can take that they feel is the right thing to do."
I agree and applaud this attitude. Moving this thread to the rants and raves forum suggests that it is not a worthy topic of discussion and sends a message that this topic is not important. Given the number of passionate responses to this thread I believe that it is important and not just to me.
My 2 cents |
Post by TomG // Jun 10, 2008, 5:12am
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To respond to the question asked some posts back of me, people are indeed allowed to complain, you'll notice we don't step in and remove bug reports, or even outright complaints when someone is unhappy. There is a line beyond which we will censor, but it's a long way out, again we prefer self-moderation by the community to imposed moderation by the company.
If a complaint is "over the line" or intended to damage rather than to seek a solution or to just plain ol vent (we don't ban that either), then we'd remove it, and talk to the person with the complaint (as much to try and resolve it as well as any moderation issues). Naturally there are positive ways and negative ways to deliver a complaint, and we prefer to see them delivered positively, but all the same, it has to be beyond the pale before we go deleting it etc.
Do remember that everyone has different styles and approaches, and one person's style may just be the one that rubs you up the wrong way. I am sure my style, where I try to be informal and friendly (for the internet equivalent in text of a smile and handshake and a "Hi!"), annoys the heck out of some people. And there are folks whose style just gets me the wrong way too. But that is just personality and style, it doesn't mean there is a personal attack, or even an attack on the software, going on, and you need to step back and think "Well, its not how I'd present this issue, but then its not me presenting it and its up to them to choose how they want to present it."
We return though to hoping you all can moderate and resolve this for yourselves! We're all here for the long haul, and in the end we really do all have the same goals - to make 3D art, and to make trueSpace better. So let's find ways of working together that lead to those results :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by transient // Jun 10, 2008, 5:22am
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I've deleted my previous rant as it was obviously excessive (although the strange reaction I get to using truespace is true).
Apologies to anyone I offended, including (throws down a shot of tequila;)) Wizard. Okay, I'm convinced your not deliberately trying to offend me, perhaps I've been too judgmental.
I have said this before on these forums, Truespace is currently my favorite 3d software. Just not the new one. Maybe I'll change my mind with 7.6, I'll be sure to trumpet it's success if Caligari turns in a blinder.
Hopefully that doesn't offend anyone, but it's how I currently feel. |
Post by jamesmc // Jun 10, 2008, 5:43am
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jamesmc
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Off topic, but having problem with my widget. :cool: |
Post by Steinie // Jun 10, 2008, 6:21am
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@James, you should have kept it in your Underwear Pack...
@transient, Kumbaya....(I'm one drink ahead of you)
@Wizard, :)
@TomG, your informal and friendly ways of dealing with us makes me sick...:p
@frootee, your always friendly too, blaaaa:D
@brotherx, doesn't get a response since he is a robot...
OK everyone squeeze together tightly, smile.....FLASH |
Post by brotherx // Jun 10, 2008, 6:26am
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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I will exterminate you all Mwah ha ha... |
Post by frootee // Jun 10, 2008, 6:35am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Off topic, but having problem with my widget. :cool:
Hm... did brotherx give you a wedgie with your widget James? :p |
Post by brotherx // Jun 10, 2008, 6:50am
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brotherx
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Now see, this is fun and completely and utterly unprofessional. What is wrong with that :D |
Post by frootee // Jun 10, 2008, 8:07am
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frootee
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haha! Funny brotherx! |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 12, 2008, 12:58am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Aw you guys - it's just that nice is so much nicer than not nice!
Transient - That's all good by me! Bottoms up and beware of the worm.
Seinie and Jamesmc - thanks for the laughs guys - James you can probably get some cream for that widget problem;)
TomG - Well I don't know about HilaryC, BarackO or JohnM - seems to me you'd be a good candidate for President with your political skills!! |
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