Trackballs and trueSpace

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Trackballs and trueSpace // Hardware

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Post by Accu // Mar 18, 2007, 11:09pm

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I didn't have a problem with my old, non-optical mouse until my mother started complaining about the one she was using for Lines98 on the other computer. It got dirty and she didn't know how to clean it, so I decided to buy a cheap optical mouse. After using the optical mouse myself and a long session of trueSpace with the old mouse, I decided the old mouse has to go. Plus, I had some wierd problems with it on Saturday.


So... new mouse for my computer and trueSpace. A normal mouse would be ok, but what about a trackball? It would probably be a plus for comfort, not having to move the whole hand anymore.


Any advice?

Post by Burisman // Mar 18, 2007, 11:26pm

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There are some threads with a discussion about 3D input devices:


http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=2139&highlight=input+device

(http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=2139&highlight=input+device)


and



http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=2293&highlight=input+device (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=2293&highlight=input+device)


There's more, just search for "input device" ;)


Splinters mentions having purchased a device at http://www.3dconnexion.com/. I'm very interested in that one, the Space Navigator, and I hope that he will share some of his experiences in this forum.

Post by Accu // Mar 18, 2007, 11:48pm

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Well, I only did a search with "trackball", so I missed the other threads, but I'm not sure they're much help. I'm not thinking of buying some expensive 3D controller thing, just a normal trackball.

Post by Burisman // Mar 18, 2007, 11:49pm

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Of course, sorry for that ;)

Post by splinters // Mar 19, 2007, 2:02am

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Splinters mentions having purchased a device at http://www.3dconnexion.com/. I'm very interested in that one, the Space Navigator, and I hope that he will share some of his experiences in this forum.

Already did mate, the device is not expensive (£45 delivered) which is a bargain for such as well made and responsive device. It works brilliantly with thr trueball plug in in both tS7 and 7.5 beta but only in the model side. I am told by developers that it should not be too difficult to integrate into the new UI at a later date, given the extensive capabilities offered by the LE. Of course, the SDK is available to anyone who fancies writing a configuration file for trueSpace. I also managed to use a script posted here to control a crane with the device in the player...impressive.

It really is less than a good mouse and is a nice piec of kit. If more people used them then perhaps support for tS would arrive quicker.
I spoke to 3D Connexions and they are aware of tS7 and truePlay and are very keen to integrate the device into the program.

So, if you are at all interested, just buy one. You can use it in many programs, including Photoshop, Google Earth, Google sketchup and it works great with model side of UI. If you don't like it, you couls always Ebay it for pretty much what you paid for it...:)

Post by Burisman // Mar 19, 2007, 2:12am

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Well Splinters,


That totally convinced me:) I'm going to order one right away. I can't wait to reduce the clicking and turning part of my right hand whenever I just want to view the model from a slightly different angle. Thanks for the update & sorry if I missed it in another thread :confused:

Post by splinters // Mar 19, 2007, 2:22am

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You won't regret it, but you could always check out the short video in this thread to be sure;


http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=2324&highlight=space+navigator


Excuse my jerky motion, early driving lessons with the device...;)


3Dconnexion have a video here;

http://cache.vendaria.com/vpop/VpopV6.html?ct=13&ctname=CT630X556D630X390&fw=630&fh=556&logo=183&fv=8&ap=vnd_3dconnexion_knob_video&purl=MAIN_3dconnexion_knob_video&iid=CCEpFVMzIIuqlLIlmKqLFVMwlluqIJ&bg=FFFFFF&nm=BZOpener&curl=&err=0&title=Vendaria%20Media&pf=t&fr=t&tp=&BV_SessionID=&BV_EngineID=


When this is supported in the player side of 7.5 and truplay, I honestly think people will be blown away...and for such a low price.


Let us know how you get on.

Post by Steinie // Mar 19, 2007, 2:25am

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Splinters, With 7.5 having a "sketchup " type function it doubles the value of this device. I'm keeping my eyes on this one, please keep us up to date about Player functionality.

Post by Accu // Mar 19, 2007, 2:37am

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The Space Navigator sounds nice, but it can't replace the mouse (or maybe it can, but I'm not sure it can be easier to use than a mouse). It may increase productivity, but I don't have deadlines for my tS projects.

The question is - would a trackball be in any way better for trueSpace modeling, or should I just get a mouse and forget this nonsense? :)


Edit: I saw a video of splinters driving an unlicensed cube thorugh trueSpace. I have alerted the police.

Post by Burisman // Mar 19, 2007, 2:38am

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:) Nice video, I didn't notice any beer-induced insecurity of movement in your demo. Looks great, I'm sure it will be a good buy. I will report on it once I'll get it up and running, thanks again.:)

Post by Burisman // Mar 19, 2007, 2:48am

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Accu, I think the trick is not to replace the mouse, but to have a significant part of the RSI-causing clicking and moving of the right hand shifted to a relatively smooth and natural way of manipulating the model with your left hand.


Like you I don't really have deadlines (at least with TS :o I don't), and I don't worry too much about productivity, but as a struggling beginner I do an awful lot of turning, clicking and twisting. Can't be good. So the Space Navigater seems to me to be a good addition to the stuff on my desk. And, I agree with Splinters, that it's at a good price, doing the weekend shopping-list in the supermarket usually hits the purse harder, and is less fun :rolleyes:


But that still doesn't answer your question about the trackball.

Post by Accu // Mar 19, 2007, 2:57am

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...shifted to a relatively smooth and natural way of manipulating the model with your left hand.

My left hand isn't free while modeling - it's on the keyboard for the Q,W,E,A,S,D,Z,X,C, Space keys, CTRL+C, etc.

And I know the Space Navigator is not that expensive, but compared to the optical mouse I bought for my mother (better than my current mouse), it's 10 times the price.

Post by Burisman // Mar 19, 2007, 3:05am

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:p I see you're a lot more advanced than I, because I haven't discovered all the keyboard shortcuts yet, so my left hand is relatively unoccupied ;) Good luck.

Post by splinters // Mar 19, 2007, 4:21am

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Navigator compliments the mouse, it cannot replace it but when I am in Point Edit mode I have to stop editing to click on various navigation tools, swing my viewpoint around, zoom in, pan left, pan right, zoom in again...do I need to go on.
With the SN I can do all this without removing my mouse from the editing position.
Horses for courses here guys...but I would not give it back now. Add to this that the best is still yet to come...when it finally gets integrated into the new player interface.

Just need some budding programmers for a quick fix...:)

As for mice, I posted a link in the original thread to Microsoft's new natural laser wireless mouse that has been ergonomically designed. I have used one and it is very comfortable to use...but at £40 it is probably too expensive if you just want a cheap optical mouse.

With something you have your hand on over 6 hours a day (like me most days) nothing costs too much if it prevents RSI...you get what you pay for...:o

Please avoid the obvious innuendo on that last line....

Post by ProfessorKhaos // Mar 19, 2007, 4:22am

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Splinters' video is interesting. Tempting in fact. :)


Went to the 3dconnexion website and took a look at their products. Not entirely sure what the upgrade feature does (why a different commercial license for an input device?). Also, I'm not quite sure what is different between the "personal edition" and the "standard edition" besides the price. Maybe goes back to that "upgrade" thing. The controller was remarkably inexpensive for what it does so it may be worth the investment under the assumption that additional support will evolve or somehow be integrated.


Might consider getting one for my various apps but I'd really like to use it on the player side in tS7. Modeller side is great but the way of the past.


Would be a huge leap in truePlay too if it can work there!


I've tried trackballs in the past and more egonomic mice. One issue I have with mice that place your hand more sideways is that precision of movement seems a bit harder to achieve even if it is easier on the wrist. Trackballs just have never caught on for me. Prefer my wireless laser mouse from Logitech so far. One issue that affects me is that I broke my right thumb many years ago so it's more difficult for me to use side buttons for features and my hand can ache a bit if I mouse around for too long a time. Already made the switch to an ergo keyboard last year. Now I can't type on a normal one and I'm much less inclined to ever go back.

Post by splinters // Mar 19, 2007, 4:29am

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Unless you have a company using more than one for commercial purposes (where the device may be an important part of that product such as for specific function or navigation) then get the PE edition. Pretty sure it is just for big companies and trust me, the packaging and device are identical. You just get Forum only support which is pretty good. There is a program on their forum for free that lets you bind the device to various key or joystick functions so any able scripter should be able to get 'joystick' input into tS7.

I too am very excited about seeing this used in trueSpace 7.5 and beyond.

May I also add that I trained as a 3D industrial/Furniture designer and this thing looks very cool and is very well made. Just seeing it glowing cool blue with its brushed steel base at the end of my desk makes me smile and it is very tactile too...must model and render it sometime ;-)

Post by Burisman // Mar 19, 2007, 4:42am

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Modeller side is great but the way of the past.



Between the lines of your message, Professor, I spot something which is off-topic here, but which greatly interests me. Why is the modeller side the way of the past?

Im sure I'm missing something significant, because I always use it and never the player side, because in my view that side lacks control and functionality, and I see it as a poorly rendered scene. And nearly all examples, also in the turorials, are working with the modeller side (except one part of the excellent tutorial by daybe on product illustration - but I must add that I haven't followed all the tutorials).


So I ask you to enlighten a soul struggling to understand ...:o

Post by ProfessorKhaos // Mar 19, 2007, 5:10am

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Sorry Burisman. It was mostly speculation on my behalf. :o


Much of the capabilites in modeller side haven't been moved to the player side yet as of tS7.11 so judging its modelling worth at this point might be premature. I think future versions will see a shift in the balance of features to the player side, but for now you're right that the modeller is where most folks do their work. I don't think this will remain the case a version or two down the road though as more and new capabilities appear on the player side.


Beyond that, there's not much more to read into my comment. If it sounded like I had some unique insight into the matter then I apologize. I don't. :)


I do a lot of scripting and link editor stuff and the player is where I tend to do much of my work at the moment because I'm looking for player-side results. Navigation around the player side is perhaps more important to me for that reason.

Post by Burisman // Mar 19, 2007, 5:30am

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Well Prof it's crystal clear to me now :)


Basically what you describe is that the current dichotomy is like a transition phase that can, and probably will, continue for a while, and we will gradually see a shift of emphasis and functionality.


Don't apologize, because your insight still is based on much more experience and as such very valuable to me. ;)


I can also see that scripting is a thing that happens mainly on the player side, .... but alas :o :( I haven't made it far into this wonderful realm yet, I find modelling quite difficult as it is at the moment.


Thanks for your elaborate reply, it indeed was enlightening :)

Post by splinters // Mar 19, 2007, 5:51am

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Model side is going nowhere any time soon but eventually should be replaced by player side as it takes on all the functions of model side but it will probably remain there for quite a while yet.

Post by Burisman // Mar 19, 2007, 5:54am

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Pfui ... that's a relieve :p nothing so bad as a lot of changes when you are trying to learn something ;)

Post by spacekdet // Mar 19, 2007, 7:11am

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Accu, I use a trackball.
It's definately a different experience to use it for tS.
With the mouse, it's more a sensation of grabbing the object on the screen and moving it, probably because you are in fact doing exactly that with the mouse. With the trackball there is a bit of a 'disconnect' or less tactile feel to tS. I got one with a thumb operated ball, but I wish I had gone for the finger operated one.
I can say it is more comfortable/ergonomic, (especially for things like web browsing) but I have been considering going back to a regular optical mouse just to get that more 'hands on' tS experience.
Whatever you pick, get one with extra programmable buttons and a scroll wheel- I've got the extras on my trackball set up to perform common repetitive functions in my most used programs.

Post by Chester Desmond // Mar 19, 2007, 9:03am

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I had a trackball (thumb style) for about a week and I just couldn't get the hang of it. Made my thumb tired and it seemed more difficult to get accurate cursor movement. It was especially useless for gaming for me and I didn't like its response in TS either..gave me the same vibe that spacekdet mentioned. Of course this is all just personal pref, but for ergonomic reasons I have a gel wrist-rest mouse pad and it works well.
In response to the 3d spaceball deal, you can get almost the same kind of experience by turning the view widget to fly mode. Not as sexy and smooth and still requires moving cursor from selection, but in combination with key shortcuts (and I can't stress enough how much these help me get around TS quickly), pretty slick.

Post by splinters // Mar 19, 2007, 9:31am

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Each to their own Chester and buying such a 3D device is personal (and financial) opinion, but I could find no way of replicating what it does with any keystrokes or comination of widgets and keys. It is like someone reading your mind and navigating around the object or scene to get the optimum view of what you are doingwhile your mouse hand does what it does best; creating and editing. Even a joystick would lack the six axis freedom of this little beauty.

But, as you can see...I am biased....;)

Post by Chester Desmond // Mar 19, 2007, 10:02am

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haha yeah it seems like a neat piece of gear. I have bought so many peripherals over the years that got returned for ultimately just another new mouse or are gathering dust in a closet somewhere.
One issue I might have with the two fisted approach would be always letting go to use the hotkeys (on the PC keyboard) . Is this a problem at all for you?

Post by RichLevy // Mar 19, 2007, 10:28am

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I had a trackball (thumb style) for about a week and I just couldn't get the hang of it. Made my thumb tired and it seemed more difficult to get accurate cursor movement. It was especially useless for gaming for me and I didn't like its response in TS either..gave me the same vibe that spacekdet mentioned.


I like the thumb style, in fact when I started using them some 5 years ago, I knew this was it for me. I also have a graphics tablet, both mouse/trackball and the tablet get a good deal of use from me.

As for the space ball thingie, it looks interesting, and one of the upper scale models do interest me... I can wait for TS to support it, I would prefer true tablet support in Player sider before anything else...


Always nice to have options though.


Rich

Post by Accu // Mar 20, 2007, 12:31am

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Thanks for your opinions. My conclusion is that I shouldn't risk buying a trackball when I can get a laser mouse for about the same price. Now I'm looking for mice. Nothing as fancy as the new natural wireless Microsoft mouse, of course.


I keep reading about truball.tsx, but I can't find out anything else about it. Google only returns two results from this forum. Is it part of a plugin pack? Can it be downloaded somewhere? I was thinking of trying it with the joystick.


Model side is going nowhere any time soon but eventually should be replaced by player side as it takes on all the functions of model side but it will probably remain there for quite a while yet.


That's a bit scary if what you mean is that tS7.5 will still have the bridge and tS6.6 hanging from it.

Post by splinters // Mar 20, 2007, 1:20am

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Truball.tsx was written for Spaceball and similar devices, it has a config file for the 3Dxware software that comes with the device. Just luck really that it still works with the Space Navigator but I doubt it will work with any other device.

Good luck with your mousehunt...;)

Post by prodigy // Mar 27, 2007, 12:47pm

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I have the Microsoft Optical Trackball... preaty but i dont like to work with truespace.. i prefer work with the mouse.. just my opinion..

Post by Cammer // Mar 27, 2007, 6:37pm

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I use the Spaceball every day at work. I do 3d modeling for my company. We

make piston airplane engines "Lycoming Engines". Our Cad package is called

Unigraphics NX4. I could not do modeling without a spaceball now, I have

been using it for the last 15 years. Current version is the 4000 even though

there is newer ones, I like this version. When the trueBall.tsx came out

I made a request to have the controls reversed to make it more like what I

was used to in Unigraphics and it did what I asked for. It currently moves

the camera when you move the ball and that isnt exactly how I it works

in Ungraphics. In the Unigraphics model space it looks like you are moving

the workpiece instead of the camera. It is better since they added the

reversed controls but still not what I am used to. I have since requested

changes for them to make it so it is more like when you are in the view rotate

while in the object coordinate system which is ultimately what I would like.

It doesnt appear to be supported any more, I never got a return email.

But hey, cant have everything for free. :)

Still a very cool tool.
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