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AMD's AM2 - What's the advantage
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AMD's AM2 - What's the advantage // Hardware
Post by hemulin // Jul 11, 2006, 6:24am
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hemulin
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I've been looking around for a new processor (read my RC Car thread for an explanation) and i've come across AMD's AM2 processors. Does anybody here know what the advantages and limitations are of a Athlon 64 Socket 940 (AM2) compared to a standard Athlon 64 Socket 939. I have heard that the format was introduced when DDR2 became, but there must be more to it than this? Anybody...? |
Post by Alien // Jul 11, 2006, 11:18am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I've been looking around for a new processor (read my RC Car thread for an explanation) and i've come across AMD's AM2 processors. Does anybody here know what the advantages and limitations are of a Athlon 64 Socket 940 (AM2) compared to a standard Athlon 64 Socket 939. I have heard that the format was introduced when DDR2 became, but there must be more to it than this? Anybody...?
AM2 & 940 are not the same thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_AM2). Socket AM2 does have 940 pins, but sAM2 & s940 [Opteron] sockets & chips are not compatible with each other. |
Post by hemulin // Jul 11, 2006, 11:20am
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hemulin
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AM2 & 940 are not the same thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_AM2). Socket AM2 does have 940 pins, but sAM2 & s940 [Opteron] sockets & chips are not compatible with each other.
I know that....I was trying to compare the AM2 (940) and the 939, thanks for trying though, it doesn't matter anymore, ill be getting a 939. |
Post by Alien // Jul 11, 2006, 11:32am
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Alien
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I know that....I was trying to compare the AM2 (940) and the 939, thanks for trying though, it doesn't matter anymore, ill be getting a 939.
Oh, sorry. :o TBH, I don't know of any other differences between 939 & AM2. I must confess my interest in 64bit AMD stuff has tended to focus on Opterons. |
Post by Jello // Sep 12, 2006, 10:57am
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Jello
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Not exactly on topic but since you mentioned AMD I'll run my mouth. I'm using an athlon XP 2100+. Using the stock cooler I got a temp of 114 F. I then installed a Thermalright SI97 (socket A heat pipe cooler) And had a temperature drop of nearly 25 degrees. More than that, everything worked better by orders of magnitude. The machine was faster and stuff looked better. My guess is that too much thermal noise inside the CPU causes confusion. Anyway, the message is COOL THOSE AMD's people. Heat pipes are a good way to get into liquid cooling without all the PIA's that usually go with it.;) |
Post by Alien // Sep 12, 2006, 4:38pm
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Alien
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Not exactly on topic but since you mentioned AMD I'll run my mouth. I'm using an athlon XP 2100+. Using the stock cooler I got a temp of 114 F. I then installed a Thermalright SI97 (socket A heat pipe cooler) And had a temperature drop of nearly 25 degrees.
114http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.pngF... that's 45.5http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.pngC .... Hmmm... a bit warm for a 2100+ possibly, but not THAT warm. My 3200+ [also socket A/462] is currently at 40http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.pngC.
More than that, everything worked better by orders of magnitude. The machine was faster and stuff looked better. My guess is that too much thermal noise inside the CPU causes confusion.
I doubt it, considering that before I got an air conditioner my flat would get really hot in the summer, & I've had my 3200+ upto about 55http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.pngC [131http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.pngF], & I never noticed any performance probs. I forget the exact numbers, & TBH can't be bothered to look them up ATM, but socket A/462 Athlons are capable of going upto somewhere around the 80-90http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.pngC mark [176-194http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.pngF] without failing [though I wouldn't recommend doing it for an extended period of time]. |
Post by Jello // Sep 13, 2006, 6:14am
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Jello
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Yes 114 is a bit warmer than I would have expected. I don't think it was only superior cooling of the CPU that helped. THE SI97 with a 56CFM fan blows a lot of air on the components surrounding the CPU which are normally cooled by convection only, not even a heatsink. The 2100+ Model six (Palomino core) is made with a .18 micron process as opposed to .13 for the Thoroughbreds, so a 2100+ model six may get a little warmer than a 2100+ model eight. An IT fellow I spoke with suggested that too much heat in the CPU can cause data errors even though it may be well within the safe temperature range for the chip. |
Post by Alien // Sep 14, 2006, 4:34pm
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Alien
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Yes 114 is a bit warmer than I would have expected. I don't think it was only superior cooling of the CPU that helped. THE SI97 with a 56CFM fan blows a lot of air on the components surrounding the CPU which are normally cooled by convection only, not even a heatsink.
Hmm... yes, though unless the airflow in your case is really bad, & you've got a layer of dust over everything, the most likely candidate for causing probs when it gets hot [assuming the CPU is within its tolerance range] is the North Bridge. Take for example my current & previous motherboards. Nice boards, but the original coolers on them were complete & utter http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/censored2.gif! With both I replaced the original with a heatsink good enough to cool the NB on it's own (http://www.zalman.co.kr/usa/product/view.asp?idx=65&code=014), then screwed a 40mm fan on to that for good measure. :)
The 2100+ Model six (Palomino core) is made with a .18 micron process as opposed to .13 for the Thoroughbreds, so a 2100+ model six may get a little warmer than a 2100+ model eight.
Good point.
An IT fellow I spoke with suggested that too much heat in the CPU can cause data errors even though it may be well within the safe temperature range for the chip.
My money's on it being the NB that was too hot. The extra airflow coming from the new fan may well have been just enough to lower the NB's temp, but you may want to consider replacing its cooler, especially if it's 1 of the type mine came with (http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/large.php?model=158).
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As you can see, there's a bit of a difference between the original & my current 1:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_to_link_to/cooling.jpg
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Post by Jello // Sep 15, 2006, 4:52am
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Jello
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That is a pretty big cooler Alien, is your system overclocked?
I bought the CPU on Ebay and did not bother to see if the cooler that came with it was actually rated for a 2100. Turns out it was not, it was rated for up to a 2000 only.:mad: Still it was below any over temp condition. The Northbridge did have a fan and heatsink type cooler but no thermal transfer compound, so I applied some AS-5.:) :cool: which dropped the temp a degree or two. |
Post by Alien // Sep 15, 2006, 12:02pm
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Alien
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That is a pretty big cooler Alien, is your system overclocked?
Nope, stock. I'm assuming you're talking about the CPU cooler? It's a Zalman CNPS 5100Cu (http://www.zalman.co.kr/usa/product/view.asp?idx=24&code=005). In that pic it had a 60x60x38mm 7000rpm Delta fan on it [the original fan was a bit naff], but that gave out [after about 3 years of 24/7 useage] a few months back, so I replaced it with 1 of those 74mm [only spare fan I had at the time] YS Tech TMD fans [the ones where the motor is built into the main body of the motor, instead of the hub] & a custom made fan adapter made out of... plywood [no, I'm not joking]. It's a good thing I made the adapter out of wood, as apparently the TMD fans had a bit of a slight design flaw which caused the motor coils to sometimes touch against the metal fan casing, which would then cause probs as it would short via the screws & heatsink. Then again, that heatsink has a plastic shroud, which is what the screws go into, so I guess it wouldn't matter either way. [not that I have any reason to believe the fan's faulty, I just found out that some are when I was trying to find out why they had become so hard to find]
I bought the CPU on Ebay and did not bother to see if the cooler that came with it was actually rated for a 2100. Turns out it was not, it was rated for up to a 2000 only.:mad: Still it was below any over temp condition. The Northbridge did have a fan and heatsink type cooler but no thermal transfer compound, so I applied some AS-5.:) :cool: which dropped the temp a degree or two.
My NB had that crappy white stuff that dries out, so replaced it with AS-2 [1st tube I bought, still haven't used it up :D]. Another thing, I don't like those plastic clips that come with NB coolers, so [as you can see in the pic] I replaced them with a couple of M3 bolts.
As for CPU cooling, I prefer to err on the side of caution. When you saw the size of my heatsink you though it was overclocked. As I said, it isn't, but, how many heatsinks do you know of that are good enough to give you enough time to close all progs & shut down properly after the fan dies completely? Oh, & just as my Windows desktop disappeared as it was shutting down, I saw the temp on SpeedFan in my system tray - 46http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.pngC - 6http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/degrees.pngC above normal temp. Worth the £40 I paid for it, I reckon. :D Having said that, my BIOS does have some sort of option that might imply that in case of overheating or fan death it would slow the CPU down to prevent damage, but there's no details in the BIOS or manual on what it really does, so I can't be certain, & it didn't seem to slow down at all. |
Post by W!ZARD // Sep 16, 2006, 8:07pm
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W!ZARD
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I don't often weigh in on the technical talk but I've been researching new computers recently as I'm (hopefully) soon to get one that will actually run my tS7 (yay!).
I wanted to answer the original question re the advantage of the AM2 socket. It was explained to me that AM2 is going to be the standard socket for Athlon for at least the next 2 or three years and therefore it's worth getting am AM2 in case you want to upgrade your Athlon CPU at some stage. They are no longer making anything that will fit the 939 socket jobs. This means that AM2 is the way to go if you are looking for a little bit of future proofing for your computer.
Additionally (but please don't quote me on this - I'm no expert) I understand that the AM2 socket has considerable speed advantages when used with SATA2 HD's and DDR2 RAM - of course that could be just sales pitch from the guy who told me that so check it out for yourself.
Hope this is of some use to you. |
Post by Alien // Sep 16, 2006, 9:14pm
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Alien
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I don't often weigh in on the technical talk but I've been researching new computers recently as I'm (hopefully) soon to get one that will actually run my tS7 (yay!).
Hopefuly it won't be too long for you. :cool:
I wanted to answer the original question re the advantage of the AM2 socket. It was explained to me that AM2 is going to be the standard socket for Athlon for at least the next 2 or three years and therefore it's worth getting am AM2 in case you want to upgrade your Athlon CPU at some stage. They are no longer making anything that will fit the 939 socket jobs. This means that AM2 is the way to go if you are looking for a little bit of future proofing for your computer.
There is certainly wisdom [or should that be W!zdom? :D] in what you say. It all depends on the circumstances I guess. For someone making as big a leap, upgrade-wise, as you are... yes, I think AM2 is the way to go. In my case it's a bit different.
As you may have picked up from the odd 1 or 2 occasions I've mentioned it, my heart longs for a dual-Opteron system. Sadly I've had to accept that this isn't a financial reality. In light of this I've recently been looking at s939 boards. Why 939? Well, when upgrading, I like to plan it so that I have to buy as few parts in 1 go to get the upgraded system working as possible. With a 939 board, I'd only need CPU, mobo, & a PCI-e graphics card, as I already have 2x1GB + 2x512MB of DDR I can use with it. With AM2 I'd have to buy new RAM as well [whereas you've got to buy new either way].
At the moment it's a bit of a race against time, given that both the board & CPU I want have both been discontinued by their respective manufacturers, & they're becoming harder to find. Hopefully by the time I get the money together there'll still be 1 of each [somewhere] for me to buy. Unfortunately these plans have been set back a further fortnight than they already were by having to shell out £130 for a new pair of glasses. :(
Additionally (but please don't quote me on this - I'm no expert) I understand that the AM2 socket has considerable speed advantages when used with SATA2 HD's and DDR2 RAM - of course that could be just sales pitch from the guy who told me that so check it out for yourself.
From what I've read I'm not 100% sure I agree with that sales guy. Let's see if I remember this correctly - DDR2 whilst running at higher frequencies [good thing] but [I think, could very well be wrong] at the same time also has higher latencies [not such a great thing]. I'm a bit hazy on which way the scales tip on this 1.
As for SATA2... I'll confess I haven't read much about AM2 boards, but I'm inclined to think it's more that SATA2 [as opposed to SATA1] is more common on AM2 boards [it might be a defacto standard for all I know, like I said, I haven't looked at many], which would make it more of a coincidence than a direct consequence of it being an AM2 board [the s939 board I want has SATA2 as well]. What does this mean in the grand scheme of things? Not a whole hell of a lot, I'm just nit-picking. :D http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/online2long.gif
1 final point. I've heard some talk that there is an Intel chip [not sure which 1/which core architecture] that on a single chip, dual core desktop system allegedly out-performs AMD chips. I'm not convinced on this 1, & even were it true I'm unsure whether it's 1 that's already commercially available, or just doing the pre-release testing rounds. Either way, I still don't think it's an option I'd choose, but that's just my opinion. :) |
Post by W!ZARD // Sep 16, 2006, 11:49pm
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W!ZARD
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Yeah good points all, my friend. IIRC this sales guy was pretty adamant that the AM2 socket was optimised for SATA2. I forget the figures he was bandying about but he seemed to think that AM2 with SATA2 was orders of magnitude faster than other earlier socket configurations - I think he mentioned parallel connections but hey - shopping for PC's has got to fill your head with screeds of code numbers and acronyms that you only ever really use when shopping for computers!
I suggested going for slightly older gear and thus avoiding the HT/dual core argument altogether - apparently all new machines are one or the other so there should still be old stock going at good prices: at least that was my thinking - the poor guy just about had a meltdown on the spot!! He seemed fairly convinced that the only way to get the maximum speed from your SATA2 was to go with the AM2 socket boards.
130 quid for new specs? You haven't been spending too much time sitting in front of a computer have you? ;)
re your final point - you are probably talking about the new core duo chips from intel which apparently leave the AMD equivalents in the dust - and given the comparative prices I've seen so they bloody well should! The core duo's certainly appear to be impressive performers but they cost a bomb - well out of my potential price range anyway. The other issue is that I feel a degree of brand loyalty to AMD given that my current machine is powered by an AMD chip, as is my partners. Both have performed flawlessly and in the case of my machine it gets a pretty good thrashing (30 hour renders and dealing with millions of polygons is all in a days work for my machine). |
Post by Alien // Sep 17, 2006, 12:59am
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Alien
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Yeah good points all, my friend. IIRC this sales guy was pretty adamant that the AM2 socket was optimised for SATA2. I forget the figures he was bandying about but he seemed to think that AM2 with SATA2 was orders of magnitude faster than other earlier socket configurations - I think he mentioned parallel connections but hey - shopping for PC's has got to fill your head with screeds of code numbers and acronyms that you only ever really use when shopping for computers!
Well if he was adamant, you should ask him to stand & deliver the proof. :D
I suggested going for slightly older gear and thus avoiding the HT/dual core argument altogether - apparently all new machines are one or the other so there should still be old stock going at good prices: at least that was my thinking - the poor guy just about had a meltdown on the spot!! He seemed fairly convinced that the only way to get the maximum speed from your SATA2 was to go with the AM2 socket boards.
Having reviewed the evidence, my only option is to deliver a verdict of Spucatum Tauri. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/judge.gif
130 quid for new specs? You haven't been spending too much time sitting in front of a computer have you? ;)
Moi? Never! :p Seriously though, the frame broke & is currently being held together with superglue. Probably a good thing, as it turns out I need a slightly stronger prescription now [last 1 was over 2 years ago]. As for the price, yeah - they are a bit much, but I figured with what happened to the current pair that getting a Memoform (http://www.visionexpress.com/discover/memoformofferpage.asp) frame might be a good idea, & also got those lenses that adapt to bright light. I'm actually looking forward to tomorrow, when I go back to see the F.A.B. & get the new 1s.
re your final point - you are probably talking about the new core duo chips from intel which apparently leave the AMD equivalents in the dust - and given the comparative prices I've seen so they bloody well should!
True, though IIRC it was the boards that were meant to be expensive [comparatively speaking], but then over there in your neck of the woods everything is. :(
The core duo's certainly appear to be impressive performers but they cost a bomb - well out of my potential price range anyway. The other issue is that I feel a degree of brand loyalty to AMD given that my current machine is powered by an AMD chip, as is my partners. Both have performed flawlessly and in the case of my machine it gets a pretty good thrashing (30 hour renders and dealing with millions of polygons is all in a days work for my machine).
Sounds a good enough reason to me. :)
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In answer to Hemulin's original question, aside from DDR2 memory instead of DDR1, from what I've read - about 1% performance improvement over the same speed chip in a 939 version.
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Post by hemulin // Sep 17, 2006, 5:34am
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1 final point. I've heard some talk that there is an Intel chip [not sure which 1/which core architecture] that on a single chip, dual core desktop system allegedly out-performs AMD chips. I'm not convinced on this 1, & even were it true I'm unsure whether it's 1 that's already commercially available, or just doing the pre-release testing rounds. Either way, I still don't think it's an option I'd choose, but that's just my opinion. :)
Sounds like your talking about the Intel's Core2Due desktop processor codenamed Conroe, it has been released and yes (according to reliable sources) it outperforms anything AMD have atm unfortunately.
In answer to Hemulin's original question, aside from DDR2 memory instead of DDR1, from what I've read - about 1% performance improvement over the same speed chip in a 939 version.Yeah, my 939 is now running happily along :) and for the 1% difference in performance I wasn't paying 40 odd % more for the mobo and cpu. |
Post by Alien // Sep 17, 2006, 12:01pm
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Alien
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Sounds like your talking about the Intel's Core2Due desktop processor codenamed Conroe, it has been released and yes (according to reliable sources) it outperforms anything AMD have atm unfortunately.
Yeah except the name... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/thinking.gifbegins with a W..., & the Wotsit [I'll call it that for now] core was apparently intended for the Xeon line of chips, but they usually tend to be for multi-CPU systems, & whatever it was that was being talked about [I was tired, & it was a couple of weeks ago] was a single socket jobby. I know you can run a single Xeon in a dual socket board, but it sounded like a single socket board was being talked about, hence my confusion. I know AMD do a single socket Opteron [100 series], but I hadn't heard of Intel doing similar with the Xeons. :confused:
Yeah, my 939 is now running happily along :) and for the 1% difference in performance I wasn't paying 40 odd % more for the mobo and cpu.
Cool. :cool: I can't remember if you said what chip you got, I'm hoping to get an X2 4800+ |
Post by W!ZARD // Sep 21, 2006, 5:40am
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W!ZARD
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Further to this topic I've just seen (somewhere???) that the AM2 socket will also be used for the next generation of quad core chips from AMD (which will theoretically blitz the intel core2duos) - it seems AMD will be using the AM2 socket for some time to come. Do you still want a 939? They are so 5 minutes ago! |
Post by W!ZARD // Sep 21, 2006, 5:59am
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W!ZARD
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Yeah except the name... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/thinking.gifbegins with a W..., & the Wotsit [I'll call it that for now] core was apparently intended for the Xeon line of chips, but they usually tend to be for multi-CPU systems, & whatever it was that was being talked about [I was tired, & it was a couple of weeks ago] was a single socket jobby.
I think the 'W' word you're looking for is (not 'W'!ZARD) Woodcrest. Apparently these are the fastest rendering CPU's currently commercially available. It also seems that these will be superceded in Nov/Dec by the Core 2 Quadro (Kentsfield) which use the same Mobo socket as the current core 2 duos and will not only be faster but also cheaper (that's what they all say).
I can't vouch for this info, I just happened to see it discussed on another forum.
Unless you have pots of money though the dual core AM2 socket Athlons still seem to be the best value for money for the average technophile.
HTH |
Post by trueBlue // Sep 21, 2006, 6:42am
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trueBlue
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Advanced Micro Devices will let computer makers pop specialized coprocessors into sockets that otherwise would house an AMD primary processor such as Opteron or Athlon.
It's an expansion of the Torrenza initiative, introduced in May, which provides a way for others to connect their technology directly to AMD chips, via the company's HyperTransport interface. The program initially let companies plug in their coprocessors via an external connection called "HTX." Now it is licensing the processor socket design as well, said Marty Seyer, senior vice president for AMD's commercial business.
That means a computer maker doesn't have to develop a separate design if it wants to use a coprocessor—a special-purpose chip for handling tasks such as graphics, mathematical calculations or security. "Now an OEM (original equipment manufacturer)—say, IBM—only has to develop one infrastructure," Seyer said.
Manufacturers that have licensed the socket technology include IBM, Sun Microsystems, Cray and Fujitsu, Seyer said. Among other things, the technology includes details about how different processors keep track of what data is stored in each others' cache memories, through a feature called "coherent HyperTransport."
"We are working with five to 10 coprocessor partners that are at various stages" in development, Seyer said.
AMD is pushing HyperTransport as one of its competitive advantages against rival Intel, and it has made significant market share gains. But Intel processors once again are competitive, and Intel is working on a HyperTransport rival called the "Common System Interface." It's not yet clear whether Intel will let others directly connect chips to its own via CSI.
IBM wouldn't comment on its specific plans, but it has shown a general interest in coprocessors in the design of the "Roadrunner" supercomputer at Los Alamos National Laboratory, said Bernie Meyerson, the chief technologist in IBM's Systems and Technology Group. Roadrunner uses more than 16,000 Cell processors to accelerate calculations running on more than 16,000 AMD Opteron chips.
IBM welcomes the chipmaker's idea. "You can take plain vanilla hardware that has the open socket and turn it into an appliance where it may have a hundredfold increase in a particular capability," Meyerson said.
AMD expects the first socket-based coprocessors to arrive in 2007, spokesman Phil Hughes said. He declined to reveal payment terms for the licensing.
Although the coprocessors are expected to first arrive in servers—for example, in those used for high-performance technical computing—the idea also will be useful for personal computers, Seyer said.
For example, graphics processors that today communicate over the relatively slow PCI Express conduit could be plugged directly into a socket instead, Seyer said. Other possibilities include physics engines that could help video games, or security processors that could deal with virus attacks. |
Post by Alien // Sep 26, 2006, 8:42pm
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Alien
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Further to this topic I've just seen (somewhere???) that the AM2 socket will also be used for the next generation of quad core chips from AMD (which will theoretically blitz the intel core2duos) - it seems AMD will be using the AM2 socket for some time to come. Do you still want a 939? They are so 5 minutes ago!
LOL. I do see your point, & it is a valid 1, there's just 1 problem. Well, 2 actually:
1. it would mean my needing extra money to get the extra parts to work [having to buy 4 things before I can use any of them instead of 3].
2. I suck at saving. :o
Ok, so I could just buy 1 item at a time, infact that's what I'm going to have to do anyway [motherboard, then CPU, then graphics card], but hey, this way I have a good excuse when socket AM2s are coming to the end of their run & the next socket [whatever it may be] is soon to arrive I'll be able to bag a [relatively] cheap quad core. :D If I had loads of money, or was making a bigger leap in terms of how far I was upgrading [e.g. from sub-1Ghz to 2Ghz+] then I might go that route, but as I've already got memory I can use I'm still going to go with the s939 option [unless by the time I have the money for the board it's no longer available, then I might have a re-think].
I think the 'W' word you're looking for is (not 'W'!ZARD) Woodcrest.
Ah, yes, that's the 1.
Apparently these are the fastest rendering CPU's currently commercially available.
Yeah, though the caveat I heard was that that was only for a single socket, on multi-socket systems they still have some ground to make up [or so I seem to remember].
Unless you have pots of money though the dual core AM2 socket Athlons still seem to be the best value for money for the average technophile.
HTH
If buying/building a system from scratch [or almost], yes, I'd agree - certainly AMD over Intel in terms of value for money.
trueBlue: Yeah, I'd heard about that. I could have sworn I'd posted about it on this forum before, but having done a search I can't seem to see it. <shrug> Oh well. They are a nice idea, but they aren't cheap. Granted they're cheap by business standards, but for everday folks like us a 4+ figure price tag for a chip is a bit high.
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Besides, although [AFAIK] nobody's adapted their progs for such a purpose, ATI Radeon X1000 series cards can already do this - if you had an SLI or Crossfire motherboard you could have 1 card for graphics & the second 1 programmed to do something else, e.g. physics.
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